Bring back the Draft?

[Nadiine]

Indirectly~actually they are serving the whims of the government~they have sworn an oath to serve a nation's government that may not always have their neighbors' best interests at heart, afterall one must serve and protect itself first and everything else must be second-place when it comes to national security, not a Christian approach perhaps, but a necessary secular one~it could be said that one cannot serve two masters, and in swearing an oath to a nation it would appear a master has been chosen. I swore it many years ago, learned a lot through the experience, was eventually led to Christ by another Marine years after we both got out, so God can will use whatever situation is at hand, but is it the best way?

The oath of the police is "to protect and serve".

Should we dismantle the police departments around the country?

 

[MrJim]

How do we handle then the Romans 13:1-5 where it states that every government is in place by the will of God?
If we swear to protect it, is this incorrect?

Every government~~consider what you are saying here. This means every one, whether american or nazi or communist, whether George Washington or Nero or Sadaam Hussein. Once again, why would a Christian war against another gov't if it is legitimately put there by God? And why would Christians involve themselves in the world's spats when we know it is all part of God's sovereign plan? Isn't there everything else in the scripture that we are taught to be doing in the Kingdom of God enough? Every government~you speak as the Mennonites do

Also, people were saying one is not to take oaths.

But does the Bible say that?
It just says not to swear by God's name or by anything.

MT 5:33 "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 Simply let your `Yes' be `Yes,' and your`No,' `No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Maybe there is another text. I can't think of any. But if this is it - I do not understand why we cannot take oaths.
Thanks,
Ed

Does the bible say do not swear?~~Jesus does in the stated passage, doesn't get any clearer than what you posted.

He said "Do not swear at all"...He doesn't say

not to swear by God's name or by anything

It's just another one of those "hard sayings" for some, maybe not as popular as some He says like "no one comes to the Father but by Me", but it's better to follow it than explain it away..

 

[MrJim]

The oath of the police is "to protect and serve".

Should we dismantle the police departments around the country?

By "we" you mean the Church? That is not the Church's job to do, going around to "dismantle police departments". It's a legitimate gov't function. The question is whether it is a legitimate Christian vocation, and would fall into similar vocation issues as military, 'cept this thread is more "draft"/forced military than selecting a career. BTW obviously the same folks that would be CO wouldn't be in police work for same reasons

 

[Cris413]

Mat 5:33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
Mat 5:34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
Mat 5:35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your "Yes' be "Yes,' and your "No,' "No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.


I’m not certain this instruction is regarding oaths of loyalty/promises and such but more so regarding swearing an oath to prove what you’re saying is true…be it a false statement against someone or in defense of yourself if someone is accusing you falsely.

Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Did you commit such and such a crime? Yes or no should be sufficient…not “I swear to God I didn’t do it.” Or “I swear to God I’m telling the truth about such and such”

I don’t mean to derail the thread but I think this is an important distinction to understand.

I had this dilemma not too long ago because I was subpoenaed by the DA to testify against my neighbor….I was a little concerned about this so I did a bit of prayerful research.

What I came to understand was to swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God…by answering yes…my yes was yes and I was submitting to the governing authority which required me to take this oath in a court of law. And testifying against my neighbor…well…Scripture tells us not to bear false witness.

I was not taking it upon myself to swear an oath in order to get people to believe me because that somehow validated what I was saying be it true or false.

I don’t think that taking an oath of office, or to serve and protect our community or our country violates the intent of what Jesus is teaching here in context.

 

[Nadiine]

By "we" you mean the Church? That is not the Church's job to do, going around to "dismantle police departments". It's a legitimate gov't function. The question is whether it is a legitimate Christian vocation, and would fall into similar vocation issues as military, 'cept this thread is more "draft"/forced military than selecting a career. BTW obviously the same folks that would be CO wouldn't be in police work for same reasons

but again, you're pushing Christians into the very thing
the JW's are preaching & teaching.

Stay OUT of society, don't participate in public office to help change
& lead away from evil....

It's to call us into our little holy huddles & sit silently in our homes
rather than be a part of anything. I find this disturbing to be honest.

What are we, leppers to sit silently in our little infected colonies & distance ourselves from "those folk"?

God establishes govt's. & leaders - His own people were Kings of Israel, since that wasn't reversed in the NT, I don't see any reason why we
have to remove ourselves from public offices.

 

[Nadiine]

Mat 5:33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
Mat 5:34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
Mat 5:35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your "Yes' be "Yes,' and your "No,' "No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.


I’m not certain this instruction is regarding oaths of loyalty/promises and such but more so regarding swearing an oath to prove what you’re saying is true…be it a false statement against someone or in defense of yourself if someone is accusing you falsely.

Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Did you commit such and such a crime? Yes or no should be sufficient…not “I swear to God I didn’t do it.” Or “I swear to God I’m telling the truth about such and such”

I don’t mean to derail the thread but I think this is an important distinction to understand.

I had this dilemma not too long ago because I was subpoenaed by the DA to testify against my neighbor….I was a little concerned about this so I did a bit of prayerful research.

What I came to understand was to swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God…by answering yes…my yes was yes and I was submitting to the governing authority which required me to take this oath in a court of law. And testifying against my neighbor…well…Scripture tells us not to bear false witness.

I was not taking it upon myself to swear an oath in order to get people to believe me because that somehow validated what I was saying be it true or false.

I don’t think that taking an oath of office, or to serve and protect our community or our country violates the intent of what Jesus is teaching here in context.

that must have been unpleasant to go thru too

 

[MrJim]

but again, you're pushing Christians into the very thing
the JW's are preaching & teaching.

Stay OUT of society, don't participate in public office to help change
& lead away from evil....

It's to call us into our little holy huddles & sit silently in our homes
rather than be a part of anything. I find this disturbing to be honest.

What are we, leppers to sit silently in our little infected colonies & distance ourselves from "those folk"?

God establishes govt's. & leaders - His own people were Kings of Israel, since that wasn't reversed in the NT, I don't see any reason why we
have to remove ourselves from public offices.

You are swinging the pendulum to the complete other end again here~~the Kingdom of God is not "holy huddles", and I sorta got on another guy about anabaptists in general hiding out in their ghetto forums instead of coming to one like this so no while it can evolve that way it's an extreme. The same pendulum swing in the other direction is called Christian Reconstructionism...

We not so much "remove" ourselves as we engage the world on a higher level through the Kingdom. It doesn't have to eliminate civic duty though if the duty involves violence then it should be closely examined.

...off to Church, see ya in a little while~rough weather around here this mornin', wonder how many will make it in...?

 

[Cris413]

that must have been unpleasant to go thru too

I was very grateful that even though my hubby and I were subpoenaed, We were never called to testify...but the days leading up to the trial were concerning indeed.

I think I'll start another thread about this...as not to derail this thread in case anyone would like to discuss this in further detail...