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Brimesmead and Ford - Seperating Justification from Sanctification?

reddogs

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In going through the many forums and researching I have come across a consistent thread that leads back to Brimesmead and Ford. They have basically seperated Justification from Sanctification by bringing up that a person can only be justified by Righteousness By Faith, but then they disconnect that a person is then transformed or made perfect by sanctification through the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. At this point there seems to be confusion with another view or views of what 'perfection' is. Well let me put the events of what occurred as comes from Geoffrey J. Paxton and asked everyone for input as to the correctness of the events and then examine the issue which they bring to the forefront which is the seperating of Justification from Sanctification. I know what I believe but I want everyones thoughts on this.

The basic events:

"...At the beginning of 1970, Robert Brinsmead and his colleagues became deeply involved in studying the issues of the Protestant Reformation and the implications of Pauline theology In the study of Reformation theology and Roman Catholic theology Brinsmead came to a renewed understanding of the issues of the sixteenth century—in particular, the meaning and implications of justification by faith alone.... It became clear to him what Luther meant in calling justification the article of the standing and falling church.

What this meant for Brinsmead ... was that, whereas in the past the Reformation had always been viewed in the light of the distinctive Adventist perspective, now the Adventist perspective had to be viewed in the light of the Reformation. Brinsmead came to believe that any building upon the Reformation had to be a building upon the Reformation and not in place of the Reformation. Whatever contribution Adventism had to give to the world, that contribution must not conflict with the central article of Reformation theology—the gospel of justification by faith alone.

Theologically, ... meant the following:

1. Brinsmead was forced to accept the position of Heppenstall, Ford, and others on the question of perfection. Although he had taught a modified perfectionism (i.e., perfection in the judgment but not before), Brinsmead now came to realize that even such a modified perfectionism and justification by faith alone cannot live in the same house happily Niebuhr focused the issue for him: righteousness for the Reformers was a faith-righteousness, and they saw their true nature and destiny in terms of this righteousness and not in any tangible, empirical righteousness in the historical process. Heppenstall and Ford were right: there can be no perfection until Christ returns.

2. Using the Reformation gospel as a canon, Brinsmead and his colleagues came to the conclusion that the traditional Adventist way of treating "righteousness by faith" was in harmony with Roman Catholic theology and not with that of the Reformers. As we have had ample occasion to note, traditional Adventism saw justification as initial forgiveness for sins of the past, while regeneration and sanctification were viewed as qualifying a person to stand in the coming judgment. Righteousness by faith was thought to encompass both justification and sanctification. Brinsmead came to the conviction —via Luther and Calvin (and Chemnitz) —that righteousness by faith means justification only. He saw that to continue in the thought patterns of traditional Adventism was to mingle law and gospel, to depend ultimately upon character development and inner renewal rather than upon an alien righteousness for our acceptance with God, and to be forced into positing perfectionism in this life. He concluded that the traditional Adventist sense of "righteousness by faith" leads to a focusing on the saint—the dreadful turning in upon ourselves.

3. Justification by faith alone in the alien righteousness of Christ called Brinsmead's traditional Adventist eschatology into question. In his theology of the 1960's he had sought to keep original sin and in-the-judgment perfectionism under one roof. Now the gospel of Paul and the Reformers made it clear that his in-the-judgment perfectionism was an attempt to deal with original sin in a way which amounted to competition with the active and passive obedience of the God-man Substitute. Brinsmead's in-the-judgment perfectionism was an emergency measure to handle the original-sin problem. But the gospel of the Reformers taught him that justification by faith in the merits of Christ was the only effectual method of dealing with original sin. (2) Whereas in traditional Adventism the initial, mere nature of justification was a concession to final acceptance on the basis of inner renewal, Brinsmead's final renewal was a concession to justification, yet also a vitiation of it. (3) According to him, all this "had to go." Justification was seen to be clearly eschatological. It was God's final judgment-day verdict received here and now by faith.

For Brinsmead, this eschatological view of justification meant that it can never be subordinated to sanctification ..... While the believer stands on justification, yet justification is always that to which he is moving. Like the psalmist, the believer can look forward not so much to a judgment of him by the Judge, but to a judgment for him. The judgment is vindication—a vindication that the believer already enjoys by faith.

4. Brinsmead testifies that this rediscovery turned himself and his colleagues outside of themselves to others. ... he and his fellow agitators approached their estranged Adventist fellow Christians to confess their errors and seek reconciliation. (4)The major expression of Brinsmead's new look outward was his publishing venture...Present Truth was to remind Protestants of their Reformation heritage and of how far they had wandered from it.

During the conflict of the 1960's, church leaders turned to Heppenstall and Ford for an answer to Brinsmead's teachings. Thus, when he capitulated to Heppenstall and Ford's position, one would naturally have expected the leadership to be delighted......Within Adventism in general, opinion regarding Present Truth differed. Avondale's Dr. Desmond Ford and retired Australasian Division President, L. C. Naden, saw Brinsmead's new move to be in the right theological direction. In some respects it was a vindication of Ford and Naden's position on perfection. However, alarm at Brinsmead's "one-sided" view of justification by faith issued from church headquarters in Washington, D.C., where Kenneth Wood and Herbert Douglass, editors of the Review and Herald, began to emphasize such things as victory-life piety, the development of sinless-demonstration people in the last generation, the example of Christ in sinless living, and the sinful human nature of Christ. Leading theologians in the church's Australasian Division began to be alarmed at the perfectionistic emphasis of the Review and Herald and the undoing of the Christological gains of Questions on Doctrine in the 1950's. And in North America, Dr. Heppenstall as well as some leading theologians at Andrews University were also unhappy with the perfectionism of the Review and Herald and its teaching on the sinful human nature of Christ.


If there was any doubt about whether church leaders were taking an opposite stance toward the new Brinsmead message, such doubt was dispelled in 1974 with the appearance of a special issue of the Review and Herald on the topic of "Righteousness by Faith." (5) It was diametrically opposed to Brinsmead's teaching. The special issue defined righteousness by faith as
... more than a doctrine, it is a relationship with a purpose. And if we turn our backs on sin, and let Christ live His life within us, it doesn't matter what we call the process. (6).........

In the same special issue, Don Neufeld describes righteousness by faith as an "experience," (7) and the "no condemnation" of Romans 8 is interpreted in the way of Trent. (8) C. Mervyn Maxwell says unequivocally, "Righteousness by faith is much more than forgiveness of sin; it is also victory over sin." (9) Other passages could be cited to show that the Review and Herald persists in the traditional Adventist definition of righteousness by faith as including both justification and sanctification. (10) Looked at from an academic perspective, it is no exaggeration to say that this special issue majors on sanctification and character development and a hagiocentric (believer-centered) emphasis. (11)

Herbert Douglass has emerged in the 1970's as the one who is seeking to make the Andreasen-Branson perfectionism dominant in Adventist thinking. In the special issue of the Review and Herald, he proposes to tell his reading audience "Why God Is Urgent and Yet Waits." The answer is: "God waits for a people who will prove that what Jesus did ... could be done by His followers . . ." (12) "For such a people," says Douglass, "God waits." (13) This is the here-and-now perfectionism of the early (and later) years of the 1960's, and it characterizes the Review and Herald stand of the church in the period of the 1970's.

A few weeks after the distribution of the Review and Herald special issue in Australia, Brinsmead issued a brochure entitled A Statement to My S.D.A. Friends. (14) Without mentioning the Review and Herald, he called into question the assumption that sanctification belongs to the Pauline article of righteousness by faith. Brinsmead claimed that righteousness by faith is nothing done by us or felt by us and is never a quality in us. The righteousness in "righteousness by faith" is the doing and dying of Christ, which is ours by faith in the merciful verdict of God. Brinsmead declared that this position is faithful to that of the sixteenth-century Reformers and all those Protestants who have stood with them for some four hundred years. To call sanctification "righteousness by faith" is to side with the Council of Trent against the Protestant Reformation.

..... The theology represented in the Review and Herald has always been present in Adventism. Yet it emerges in the 1970's, purified of those elements (e.g., anti-perfectionism) which were bound to retard its effectual articulation.

"The Ford-Brinsmead Mateship" (15)

In 1975, .. Desmond Ford issued a paper entitled The Soteriological Implications of the Human Nature of Christ. (16) It included an appendix of answers to questions, by Dr. Ford. The link of this manuscript with the theology department at Avondale College was obvious.

The paper majored on three highly contentious areas. (1) It looked at the question of the sinlessness of Christ's humanity and clearly repudiated the doctrine of the sinful human nature of Christ. (2) It dealt with the meaning of righteousness by faith, stating clearly that righteousness by faith is justification alone. (3) The manuscript took up the question of perfectionism and repudiated the notion of perfection in this life.

This paper brought a heated response from some influential laymen and retired church workers in Australia. The leaders of the church in North America and Australia arranged for a conference of administrators and theologians in an attempt to settle the issue. This conference took place at Palmdale, California, on April 23-30, 1976.

Before the Palmdale conference, however, a large group of church leaders in Australia met at Avondale on February 3-4 to hear charges brought against Dr. Ford by a group under the leadership of J. W Kent. The main accusation concerned Ford's understanding of righteousness by faith.... as follows:

There are many who find it impossible to distinguish between the teaching contained in the Ms. [of ... Ford] and that of Robert Brinsmead. The Theology Department and Brinsmead are in total agreement both in what they affirm to be true and what they denounce as false. The Ms. from the Theology Department alleges that those who included the work of the Holy Spirit within the meaning of the phrase "the righteousness which is of faith" are teaching a "false gospel." Brinsmead calls it "undisguised Romanism." Both statements reflect an attitude of hostility towards the denominational position. (17)...."
 

reddogs

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"....Pastor Basham saw clearly the facts of the situation when he said, "Thus we have a clear division between what is taught at Avondale by Dr. Ford and what is taught by our American brethren." (18) There is little doubt that Basham's assessment of the theological situation is correct. Ford espouses quite a different theology from that of the Review and Herald. Basham wrote further:

The situation that now exists in the church can be stated simply If the position taken by the Ms. sent out from "the Theology Department" at Avondale is right, then the historical position of the Adventist Church is wrong. The two view points are irreconcilable. (19)
..The Palmdale conference took place with a division of opinion concerning the meaning of righteousness by faith and the question of Christ's human nature. (22) Yet when Dr. Ford returned to Australia, he did so with the conviction that the conference had agreed that righteousness by faith, as used in the Bible, means justification alone. However, some North American delegates returned to their areas equally convinced that Palmdale had supported the traditional Adventist position on the meaning of righteousness by faith. (23)

For a time after Palmdale it was not clear to what extent the representatives from the Review and Herald supported Dr. Ford's position that righteousness by faith equals justification alone. But Ford was confident that this was the predominant concession at Palmdale, and he said it was a "first" in the history of Seventh-day Adventism. (24).....As time went on, it began to be obvious that some influential Review and Herald leaders did not accept Ford's position on the definition of righteousness by faith. Both the editor of the Review and Herald, Kenneth H. Wood, and the President of the General Conference, Robert H. Pierson, made their position clear. Wood quotes the Seventh-day Adventist Encyclopedia, which says that righteousness by faith includes both justification and sanctification, (25) and then goes on to say: "The Palmdale statement concurs with this view." (26) Further on he continues:

We think it only fair to say.., that those who hold sanctification to be a part of "righteousness by faith" seem to place greater emphasis on holy living than do those who exclude it; also, they seem to give greater emphasis to humanity's part in cooperating with divinity in the plan of salvation. This is perhaps because they consider the gospel not merely as the good news that through Christ repentant souls may have a new standing before God, but that through Him sinners may be transformed. (27)
In subsequent articles on the Palmdale statement, (28) Wood makes clear how he understands the gospel: He writes:

We think it is important to understand that the gospel (good news) is not merely an announcement of what Christ has done in the past to save a lost world, it is an announcement of what Christ wants to do, and is able to do, in the present. It is not merely an announcement of Bethlehem and Calvary, it is an announcement of a living Saviour, a Saviour who is able to save to the uttermost (Heb. 7:25), a Saviour who can save not merely from the penalty of sin but from the power of sin (Titus 2:11-14), a Saviour who not only forgives but cleanses from sin (1 John 1:9), a Saviour who is able to keep us from yielding to temptation (Jude 24), a Saviour who ministers on our behalf in the heavenly sanctuary (Heb. 8:1, 2). (29)
The President of the General Conference, Robert H. Pierson, gives his influential contribution in an article entitled "What Is Righteousness by Faith?" (30) Pierson follows Wood in referring to the Adventist Encyclopedia and then says:

From these words it is clear that the Seventh-day Adventist Church accepts the two phases or steps in the experience of righteousness by faith. One is the "instantaneous experience," known as justification, ... [which is] the imputed righteousness of Jesus ... and the resultant peace and joy in Christ....

The second phase is a "lifelong experience of Christian living". . . . (31)


... Brinsmead, via Present Truth magazine, caused Ford to sharpen his definition of righteousness by faith into the shape of the biblical-Reformation understanding of it as justification alone.... What this meant for Ford was that he not only came to see the righteousness of faith as meaning justification alone, but he also came to see the all-determining significance of justification by faith for life and doctrine. (32) ......

This controversy reached a new level of tension in the publication of the Adult Sabbath School Lessons for April-May-June, 1977, entitled Jesus, the Model Man. (33) .....In the Quarterly, Herbert Douglass presents the idea that the Second Person of the Godhead divested Himself of His divine powers and prerogatives. (34) "Our Model is not merely an example which beckons us on but is never to be reached." (35) Jesus was altogether human and possessed a sinful nature common to all men. Hence, Jesus is qualified to be our Example, and the gospel (good news) is that He has proved we can overcome sin and live exactly (sinlessly) as He did. (36)

....Prior to 1970, Adventism's view of the gospel was a synthesis of Protestant and Roman Catholic elements. It was this synthesis which bound all Adventist theologians together in their articulation of the gospel. The synthesis was to be found even in those theologians who stood closer to the Reformation perspective (e.g., Heppenstall, Ford, and LaRondelle)....The new element in Adventism's approach to the gospel in the 1970's is the breaking of the synthesis of righteousness by faith and sanctification in the understanding of righteousness by faith. This is the first time in Adventist teaching that the break has taken place. (46) Where it has occurred, there is an unashamed return to the gospel of the Reformation.

...For both Brinsmead and Ford, the centrality of justification lies at the heart of the gospel of Paul and the Reformers. Yet in the face of Brinsmead and Ford's breaking of the synthesis between righteousness by faith and sanctification, there is now a definite effort by others to maintain it......"excerpts from 'The Shaking of Adventism' by Geoffrey J. Paxton

http://www.presenttruthmag.com/7dayadventist/shaking/7.html
 
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DrStupid_Ben

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Interesting read, though it probably would have been better to simply link to the article without all the cutting and pasting. Funny to think that Brinsmead no longer holds any of the positions he held in the 60's or 70's, yet Adventists are still fighting over it. This was probably a case where such a divisive issue forced people to adopt more and more extreme views in opposition to each other.

I deffinately have simpathy for the righteousness by faith as justification crew. I see a real effort to connect with the totallity of Christ's sacrifice. One of my theology lecturers explained the whole issue in this way (Or this is how I remember it. I don't want to misrepresent what someone else has said on this issue): There is most definately character developement through the Spirit that enables us to give obediance to God, however, if I live by faith in Christ, I will always be covered by his sacrifice no matter where I am in my charater development.

Here are some adittional thoughts of mine in no order of importance:

There is a difference between the Catholic view and the historic Adventist view. For the Catholics, the whole process was administered through the sacraments, particularly through the ecclesiastical structures, whereas the historic Adventist view seems to be the personal empowerment by the Holy Spirit.

A critique of both the Protestant-Reformation view and the Catholic view is that they are entirely individualistic. They both do not account for any corporate application of righteousness and obedience.

A heavy emphasis on obedience can be dangerous, because it focuses too much on the letter of the Law, which kills, and not enough on the spirit of the Law, which gives life (2 Cor 3:6).
 
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reddogs

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Interesting read, though it probably would have been better to simply link to the article without all the cutting and pasting. Funny to think that Brinsmead no longer holds any of the positions he held in the 60's or 70's, yet Adventists are still fighting over it. This was probably a case where such a divisive issue forced people to adopt more and more extreme views in opposition to each other.

I deffinately have simpathy for the righteousness by faith as justification crew. I see a real effort to connect with the totallity of Christ's sacrifice. One of my theology lecturers explained the whole issue in this way (Or this is how I remember it. I don't want to misrepresent what someone else has said on this issue): There is most definately character developement through the Spirit that enables us to give obediance to God, however, if I live by faith in Christ, I will always be covered by his sacrifice no matter where I am in my charater development.

Here are some adittional thoughts of mine in no order of importance:

There is a difference between the Catholic view and the historic Adventist view. For the Catholics, the whole process was administered through the sacraments, particularly through the ecclesiastical structures, whereas the historic Adventist view seems to be the personal empowerment by the Holy Spirit.

A critique of both the Protestant-Reformation view and the Catholic view is that they are entirely individualistic. They both do not account for any corporate application of righteousness and obedience.

A heavy emphasis on obedience can be dangerous, because it focuses too much on the letter of the Law, which kills, and not enough on the spirit of the Law, which gives life (2 Cor 3:6).

Do you believe that if we accept Christ (then the historic Adventist view) part of this is a personal empowerment (transformation) by the Holy Spirit.

What does scripture teach on "corporate application of righteousness and obedience", do you have some text?

I never worry about a "A heavy emphasis on obedience ", because those who try it usually can't do it themselves...

Red
 
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NightEternal

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This article is explaining exactly what I have been trying to get across on these boards from day 1!!! :doh:

Some choice parts that jumped out at me:

What this meant for Brinsmead ... was that, whereas in the past the Reformation had always been viewed in the light of the distinctive Adventist perspective, now the Adventist perspective had to be viewed in the light of the Reformation. Brinsmead came to believe that any building upon the Reformation had to be a building upon the Reformation and not in place of the Reformation. Whatever contribution Adventism had to give to the world, that contribution must not conflict with the central article of Reformation theology—the gospel of justification by faith alone.

Exactly! :thumbsup:

Brinsmead was forced to accept the position of Heppenstall, Ford, and others on the question of perfection. Although he had taught a modified perfectionism (i.e., perfection in the judgment but not before), Brinsmead now came to realize that even such a modified perfectionism and justification by faith alone cannot live in the same house happily Niebuhr focused the issue for him: righteousness for the Reformers was a faith-righteousness, and they saw their true nature and destiny in terms of this righteousness and not in any tangible, empirical righteousness in the historical process. Heppenstall and Ford were right: there can be no perfection until Christ returns.

YES! Ford and Heppenstall were crucial in my understanding of the salvation Gospel.

2. Using the Reformation gospel as a canon, Brinsmead and his colleagues came to the conclusion that the traditional Adventist way of treating "righteousness by faith" was in harmony with Roman Catholic theology and not with that of the Reformers. As we have had ample occasion to note, traditional Adventism saw justification as initial forgiveness for sins of the past, while regeneration and sanctification were viewed as qualifying a person to stand in the coming judgment. Righteousness by faith was thought to encompass both justification and sanctification. Brinsmead came to the conviction —via Luther and Calvin (and Chemnitz) —that righteousness by faith means justification only. He saw that to continue in the thought patterns of traditional Adventism was to mingle law and gospel, to depend ultimately upon character development and inner renewal rather than upon an alien righteousness for our acceptance with God, and to be forced into positing perfectionism in this life. He concluded that the traditional Adventist sense of "righteousness by faith" leads to a focusing on the saint—the dreadful turning in upon ourselves.

YES, YES, YES! :clap:

3. Justification by faith alone in the alien righteousness of Christ called Brinsmead's traditional Adventist eschatology into question. In his theology of the 1960's he had sought to keep original sin and in-the-judgment perfectionism under one roof. Now the gospel of Paul and the Reformers made it clear that his in-the-judgment perfectionism was an attempt to deal with original sin in a way which amounted to competition with the active and passive obedience of the God-man Substitute. Brinsmead's in-the-judgment perfectionism was an emergency measure to handle the original-sin problem. But the gospel of the Reformers taught him that justification by faith in the merits of Christ was the only effectual method of dealing with original sin. (2) Whereas in traditional Adventism the initial, mere nature of justification was a concession to final acceptance on the basis of inner renewal, Brinsmead's final renewal was a concession to justification, yet also a vitiation of it. (3) According to him, all this "had to go." Justification was seen to be clearly eschatological. It was God's final judgment-day verdict received here and now by faith.

:amen:

In some respects it was a vindication of Ford and Naden's position on perfection. However, alarm at Brinsmead's "one-sided" view of justification by faith issued from church headquarters in Washington, D.C., where Kenneth Wood and Herbert Douglass, editors of the Review and Herald, began to emphasize such things as victory-life piety, the development of sinless-demonstration people in the last generation, the example of Christ in sinless living, and the sinful human nature of Christ.

Of course, when the true salvation gospel is proclaimed, the sinless perfectionists come out of the woodwork with claws extended. The warped salvation theology of men like Herbert Douglass is ruining this church.

Leading theologians in the church's Australasian Division began to be alarmed at the perfectionistic emphasis of the Review and Herald and the undoing of the Christological gains of Questions on Doctrine in the 1950's. And in North America, Dr. Heppenstall as well as some leading theologians at Andrews University were also unhappy with the perfectionism of the Review and Herald and its teaching on the sinful human nature of Christ.

Amen Dr. Heppenstall! We continue the fight even today!

Brinsmead claimed that righteousness by faith is nothing done by us or felt by us and is never a quality in us. The righteousness in "righteousness by faith" is the doing and dying of Christ, which is ours by faith in the merciful verdict of God. Brinsmead declared that this position is faithful to that of the sixteenth-century Reformers and all those Protestants who have stood with them for some four hundred years. To call sanctification "righteousness by faith" is to side with the Council of Trent against the Protestant Reformation.

Brinsmead nailed it!

....Prior to 1970, Adventism's view of the gospel was a synthesis of Protestant and Roman Catholic elements. It was this synthesis which bound all Adventist theologians together in their articulation of the gospel. The synthesis was to be found even in those theologians who stood closer to the Reformation perspective (e.g., Heppenstall, Ford, and LaRondelle)....

Yes, even the men who are closest to the truth in Adventism still have baggage that needs to be let go of.

The new element in Adventism's approach to the gospel in the 1970's is the breaking of the synthesis of righteousness by faith and sanctification in the understanding of righteousness by faith. This is the first time in Adventist teaching that the break has taken place. (46) Where it has occurred, there is an unashamed return to the gospel of the Reformation.

WOO HOO!

For both Brinsmead and Ford, the centrality of justification lies at the heart of the gospel of Paul and the Reformers. Yet in the face of Brinsmead and Ford's breaking of the synthesis between righteousness by faith and sanctification, there is now a definite effort by others to maintain it.

Yes! And there always will be in Adventism. We will always be here to raise the flag of justification by faith from the dust where it has been trampled on by the sinless perfectionists.

Early, sinless perfection Brinsmead was intolerable. Later, post-sinless perfection Brinsmead was the Gospel being proclaimed in a nutshell. He finally got it! It is completely sad what has happened to the man now. I don't even think he is a believer in God anymore. Someone from Australia may be able to verify that better than I. Ford shed many tears over Brinsmead's slow descent into atheism.

The Shaking Of Adventism by Geoffery Paxton is a book I have linked to several times on this site, but it has always gone ignored:

http://www.presenttruthmag.com/7dayadventist/shaking/

This is the book that finally broke through my understanding and woke me up to the problems our salvation theology faces. And it took an Anglican minister's outside perspective like Paxton's to do it.

I have also linked to the Present Truth Magazine website many times in the past as well:

http://www.presenttruthmag.com/

Excellent article Red! I know you have posted it on other forums, but I was already familiar with it, as I have all of Paxton's books.
 
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reddogs

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This article is explaining exactly what I have been trying to get across on these boards from day 1!!! :doh:

Some choice parts that jumped out at me:

What this meant for Brinsmead ... was that, whereas in the past the Reformation had always been viewed in the light of the distinctive Adventist perspective, now the Adventist perspective had to be viewed in the light of the Reformation. Brinsmead came to believe that any building upon the Reformation had to be a building upon the Reformation and not in place of the Reformation. Whatever contribution Adventism had to give to the world, that contribution must not conflict with the central article of Reformation theology—the gospel of justification by faith alone.

Exactly! :thumbsup:

Brinsmead was forced to accept the position of Heppenstall, Ford, and others on the question of perfection. Although he had taught a modified perfectionism (i.e., perfection in the judgment but not before), Brinsmead now came to realize that even such a modified perfectionism and justification by faith alone cannot live in the same house happily Niebuhr focused the issue for him: righteousness for the Reformers was a faith-righteousness, and they saw their true nature and destiny in terms of this righteousness and not in any tangible, empirical righteousness in the historical process. Heppenstall and Ford were right: there can be no perfection until Christ returns.

YES! Ford and Heppenstall were crucial in my understanding of the salvation Gospel.

2. Using the Reformation gospel as a canon, Brinsmead and his colleagues came to the conclusion that the traditional Adventist way of treating "righteousness by faith" was in harmony with Roman Catholic theology and not with that of the Reformers. As we have had ample occasion to note, traditional Adventism saw justification as initial forgiveness for sins of the past, while regeneration and sanctification were viewed as qualifying a person to stand in the coming judgment. Righteousness by faith was thought to encompass both justification and sanctification. Brinsmead came to the conviction —via Luther and Calvin (and Chemnitz) —that righteousness by faith means justification only. He saw that to continue in the thought patterns of traditional Adventism was to mingle law and gospel, to depend ultimately upon character development and inner renewal rather than upon an alien righteousness for our acceptance with God, and to be forced into positing perfectionism in this life. He concluded that the traditional Adventist sense of "righteousness by faith" leads to a focusing on the saint—the dreadful turning in upon ourselves.

YES, YES, YES! :clap:

3. Justification by faith alone in the alien righteousness of Christ called Brinsmead's traditional Adventist eschatology into question. In his theology of the 1960's he had sought to keep original sin and in-the-judgment perfectionism under one roof. Now the gospel of Paul and the Reformers made it clear that his in-the-judgment perfectionism was an attempt to deal with original sin in a way which amounted to competition with the active and passive obedience of the God-man Substitute. Brinsmead's in-the-judgment perfectionism was an emergency measure to handle the original-sin problem. But the gospel of the Reformers taught him that justification by faith in the merits of Christ was the only effectual method of dealing with original sin. (2) Whereas in traditional Adventism the initial, mere nature of justification was a concession to final acceptance on the basis of inner renewal, Brinsmead's final renewal was a concession to justification, yet also a vitiation of it. (3) According to him, all this "had to go." Justification was seen to be clearly eschatological. It was God's final judgment-day verdict received here and now by faith.

:amen:

In some respects it was a vindication of Ford and Naden's position on perfection. However, alarm at Brinsmead's "one-sided" view of justification by faith issued from church headquarters in Washington, D.C., where Kenneth Wood and Herbert Douglass, editors of the Review and Herald, began to emphasize such things as victory-life piety, the development of sinless-demonstration people in the last generation, the example of Christ in sinless living, and the sinful human nature of Christ.

Of course, when the true salvation gospel is proclaimed, the sinless perfectionists come out opf the woodwork with claws extended. The warped salvation theology of men like Herbert Douglass is ruining this church.

Leading theologians in the church's Australasian Division began to be alarmed at the perfectionistic emphasis of the Review and Herald and the undoing of the Christological gains of Questions on Doctrine in the 1950's. And in North America, Dr. Heppenstall as well as some leading theologians at Andrews University were also unhappy with the perfectionism of the Review and Herald and its teaching on the sinful human nature of Christ.

Amen Dr. Heppenstall! We continue the fight even today!

Brinsmead claimed that righteousness by faith is nothing done by us or felt by us and is never a quality in us. The righteousness in "righteousness by faith" is the doing and dying of Christ, which is ours by faith in the merciful verdict of God. Brinsmead declared that this position is faithful to that of the sixteenth-century Reformers and all those Protestants who have stood with them for some four hundred years. To call sanctification "righteousness by faith" is to side with the Council of Trent against the Protestant Reformation.

Brinsmead nailed it!

....Prior to 1970, Adventism's view of the gospel was a synthesis of Protestant and Roman Catholic elements. It was this synthesis which bound all Adventist theologians together in their articulation of the gospel. The synthesis was to be found even in those theologians who stood closer to the Reformation perspective (e.g., Heppenstall, Ford, and LaRondelle)....

Yes, even the men who are closest to the truth in Adventism still have baggage that needs to be let go of.

The new element in Adventism's approach to the gospel in the 1970's is the breaking of the synthesis of righteousness by faith and sanctification in the understanding of righteousness by faith. This is the first time in Adventist teaching that the break has taken place. (46) Where it has occurred, there is an unashamed return to the gospel of the Reformation.

WOO HOO!

For both Brinsmead and Ford, the centrality of justification lies at the heart of the gospel of Paul and the Reformers. Yet in the face of Brinsmead and Ford's breaking of the synthesis between righteousness by faith and sanctification, there is now a definite effort by others to maintain it.

Yes! And there always will be in Adventism. We will always be here to raise the flag of justification by faith from the dust where it has been trampled on by the sinless perfectionists.

Early, sinless perfection Brinsmead was intolerable. Later, post-sinless perfection Brinsmead was the Gospel being proclaimed in a nutshell. He finally got it! It is completely sad what has happened to the man now. I don't even think he is a believer in God anymore. Someone from Australia may be able to verify that better than I. Ford shed many tears over Brinsmead's slow descent into atheism.

The Shaking Of Adventism by Geoffery Paxton is a book I have linked to several times on this site, but it has always gone ignored:

http://www.presenttruthmag.com/7dayadventist/shaking/

This is the book that finally broke through my understanding and woke me up to the problems our salvation theology faces. And it took an Anglican minister's outside perspective like Paxton's to do it.

I have also linked to the Present Truth Magazine website many times in the past as well:

http://www.presenttruthmag.com/

Excellent article Red! I know you have posted it on other forums, but I was already familiar with it, as I have all of Paxton's books.

Yes, I went and tested the waters with some of the other forums, but it is a hard one to tackle....
 
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Jon0388g

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What this meant for Brinsmead ... was that, whereas in the past the Reformation had always been viewed in the light of the distinctive Adventist perspective, now the Adventist perspective had to be viewed in the light of the Reformation. Brinsmead came to believe that any building upon the Reformation had to be a building upon the Reformation and not in place of the Reformation. Whatever contribution Adventism had to give to the world, that contribution must not conflict with the central article of Reformation theology—the gospel of justification by faith alone.

Exactly! :thumbsup:

The contribution Adventism has to give must not conflict with the central article of Reformation theology???

I'd rather it not conflict with the Bible.

The Reformers especially Luther rediscovered the importance of righteousness by faith, and this was present truth at that time, coming out of Catholic oppression etc. The Lord Himself had a message for the people then.


But I do not think Luther had the entire picture. I read somewhere that he did not believe the book of James was supposed to be part of Scripture.


It seems that you and Brinsmead honor the Reformation as much as traditional Adventists honor Sister White. I don't think that Adventists have the full picture yet either, but ours is fuller than the time of the Reformation, for sure.



Jon
 
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NightEternal

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The contribution Adventism has to give must not conflict with the central article of Reformation theology???

Correct! :thumbsup:

I'd rather it not conflict with the Bible.

The Reformation understanding of salvation in no way conflicts with the Bible.

The Reformers especially Luther rediscovered the importance of righteousness by faith, and this was present truth at that time, coming out of Catholic oppression etc. The Lord Himself had a message for the people then.

Balderdash. Justification by faith alone was never meant to be relevant truth for only a certain time alone. It will stand always as the most important, critical element of Christian theology. It is central, always at the forefront, just as much now as it was back in Luther's time.

But I do not think Luther had the entire picture.

On salvation, you better believe he did.

I read somewhere that he did not believe the book of James was supposed to be part of Scripture.

What he said was that James was an 'epistle of straw'. Not even close to what you are saying. I have heard this misunderstanding over and over again used by TSDA's as a means to discredit Luther's premise as sloppy agape, cheap, new theology. Nope, never has and never will work. It stands mightier than ever.

Nowhere does the book of James endorse works as on the same level as justification. It is only to desperately grasp at some credibility for thier works-based TSDA salvation theology that the Traditionalists claim it does.

If only the TSDA's would spend as much time in the book of Romans as they do misinterpreting and idolizing the book of James...

It seems that you and Brinsmead honor the Reformation as much as traditional Adventists honor Sister White.

What nonsense. Nice try, but that won't work with me.

I don't think that Adventists have the full picture yet either, but ours is fuller than the time of the Reformation, for sure.

In regards to salvation, not even close. What a joke. If anything, Adventism has done nothing but muddle and confuse even more the clear salvation understanding of Luther by heretical sinless perfection and sanctification as the root and not the fruit of salvation.
 
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reddogs

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The contribution Adventism has to give must not conflict with the central article of Reformation theology???

Correct! :thumbsup:

I'd rather it not conflict with the Bible.

The Reformation understanding of salvation in no way conflicts with the Bible.

The Reformers especially Luther rediscovered the importance of righteousness by faith, and this was present truth at that time, coming out of Catholic oppression etc. The Lord Himself had a message for the people then.
Balderdash. Justification by faith alone was never meant to be relevant truth for only a certain time alone. It will stand always as the most important, critical element of Christian theology. It is central, always at the forefront, just as much now as it was back in Luther's time.

But I do not think Luther had the entire picture.

On salvation, you better believe he did.

I read somewhere that he did not believe the book of James was supposed to be part of Scripture.

What he said was that James was an 'epistle of straw'. Not even close to what you are saying. I have heard this misunderstanding over and over again used by TSDA's as a means to discredit Luther's premise as sloppy agape, cheap, new theology. Nope, never has and never will work. It stands mightier than ever.

Nowhere does the book of James endorse works as on the same level as justification. It is only to desperately grasp at some credibility for thier works-based TSDA salvation theology that the Traditionalists claim it does.

If only the TSDA's would spend as much time in the book of Romans as they do misinterpreting and idolizing the book of James...

It seems that you and Brinsmead honor the Reformation as much as traditional Adventists honor Sister White.

What nonsense. Nice try, but that won't work with me.

I don't think that Adventists have the full picture yet either, but ours is fuller than the time of the Reformation, for sure.

In regards to salvation, not even close. What a joke. If anything, Adventism has done nothing but muddle and confuse even more the clear salvation understanding of Luther by heretical sinless perfection and sanctification as the root and not the fruit of salvation.


Now here is the paradox, no one will have eternal life without justification and sanctification so seperating the two causes some real problems. So there must be text that show us the sequence of the two......
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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I'm going to keep trying to read this whole post of yours, Night, until my eyes will LET me ... but this stood out and I was able to read the entire paragraph with clarity:


2. Using the Reformation gospel as a canon, Brinsmead and his colleagues came to the conclusion that the traditional Adventist way of treating "righteousness by faith" was in harmony with Roman Catholic theology and not with that of the Reformers. As we have had ample occasion to note, traditional Adventism saw justification as initial forgiveness for sins of the past, while regeneration and sanctification were viewed as qualifying a person to stand in the coming judgment. Righteousness by faith was thought to encompass both justification and sanctification. Brinsmead came to the conviction —via Luther and Calvin (and Chemnitz) —that righteousness by faith means justification only. He saw that to continue in the thought patterns of traditional Adventism was to mingle law and gospel, to depend ultimately upon character development and inner renewal rather than upon an alien righteousness for our acceptance with God, and to be forced into positing perfectionism in this life. He concluded that the traditional Adventist sense of "righteousness by faith" leads to a focusing on the saint—the dreadful turning in upon ourselves.

YES, YES, YES! :clap:
This is awesome!!! NIGHT ETERNAL (and ONLY you I ask, please do NOT answer unless you are NIGHT ETERNAL) -- is this the truth????

Brinsmead claimed that righteousness by faith is nothing done by us or felt by us and is never a quality in us. The righteousness in "righteousness by faith" is the doing and dying of Christ, which is ours by faith in the merciful verdict of God. Brinsmead declared that this position is faithful to that of the sixteenth-century Reformers and all those Protestants who have stood with them for some four hundred years. To call sanctification "righteousness by faith" is to side with the Council of Trent against the Protestant Reformation.

Brinsmead nailed it!


IS THIS THE TRUTH NightEternal???? is this GOD'S TRUTH??
please!!!! it must be ... tell me it is true!!!
 
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reddogs

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The contribution Adventism has to give must not conflict with the central article of Reformation theology???

I'd rather it not conflict with the Bible.

The Reformers especially Luther rediscovered the importance of righteousness by faith, and this was present truth at that time, coming out of Catholic oppression etc. The Lord Himself had a message for the people then.


But I do not think Luther had the entire picture. I read somewhere that he did not believe the book of James was supposed to be part of Scripture.


It seems that you and Brinsmead honor the Reformation as much as traditional Adventists honor Sister White. I don't think that Adventists have the full picture yet either, but ours is fuller than the time of the Reformation, for sure.



Jon


Yes, James does smash the idea of seperation, it stands as a warning to all who declare "I have faith" but only give lip service and pretend. But God will see their heart...

Faith and Deeds

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:14-26
 
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reddogs

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So from James we can go and look to see what Paul says on the same issue, and it looks like they are on the same line.

Then this is what Paul meant when he says we are set free by the freedom Christ gives us but not to use that freedom to indulge in sin. But to show love to one another and this is where the fruits of the Spirit come in, the things that show our love which is from God. So we have faith, God comes in and puts His love in us and fills us with the Holy Spirit which changes our hearts and minds so we can love God and our fellowman the way He intended.


Freedom in Christ

1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9"A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

Life by the Spirit

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.Galatians 5:1-26
 
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NightEternal

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I'm going to keep trying to read this whole post of yours, Night, until my eyes will LET me ... but this stood out and I was able to read the entire paragraph with clarity:



This is awesome!!! NIGHT ETERNAL (and ONLY you I ask, please do NOT answer unless you are NIGHT ETERNAL) -- is this the truth????



IS THIS THE TRUTH NightEternal???? is this GOD'S TRUTH??
please!!!! it must be ... tell me it is true!!!

It be true Moriah! :thumbsup: Justification by faith, Reformation style!

Here are some interesting links that deal with the Paul vs. James issue:

http://www.learnthebible.org/q_a_james_vs_paul.htm

Why, then, is James so different from the epistles of Paul--and, yes, it
is different. There are several qualities that have made this epistle a
hard one to understand for many.

1. James is written to Jewish believers. As a rule, Paul's Gentiles
epistles are written to Gentiles. James is written "to the twelve tribes
which are scattered abroad" (James 1:2).

2. James is probably the earliest of the New Testament epistles to be
written. It is written early in the transition from the gospel of the
kingdom to the gospel of the grace of God. James is coming from the
standpoint of a Jewish gospel. The book may have been written before
Acts 15. That would significantly change its outlook.

3. James was written in anticipation of a soon return of the Lord. James 5
seems to have special application to the tribulation period. Though I
do not feel that James is an exclusively tribulation book, it does have
some powerful applications to this time period. But that would make sense
if the book was written so early that it looked as there would be no
Gentile age. The early Jewish believers expected a quick transition from
the apostolic age to the tribulation and the coming of Christ.
James refers to the wickedness of the rich (James 5:1-6)--something
especially true when buying and selling requires the mark of the beast.
James 5:8 states, "Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the
coming of the Lord draweth nigh." Apply this verse to the tribulation. He
proclaims that "the judge standeth before the door" (James 5:9). this
pictures a judge who is preparing to make things right immediately. Jesus
is the judge who will come (Acts 17:31). Jesus standing sounds more like
the vision Stephen had of Him before his death (Acts 7:55) than like the
descriptions of Paul where Christ is seated at the right hand of God
(Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1). The warning against taking oaths
(James 5:12) could help them avoid the mark of the beast. The reference to
Elijah and the lack of rain for three and a half years (James 5:17)
certainly points to the witnesses of the tribulation (Revelation 11:3-6).

As you can see, there are interesting parallels. However, James is
speaking to believers in Jesus Christ after the death, burial,
resurrection, and ascension of Christ. The extent of grace may not have
yet been fully revealed, but that does not mean salvation is by works. In
fact, James 2:23 points to the common proof text Paul used for salvation
through faith--"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham
believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was
called the Friend of God." James does not deny the imputation of
righteousness through faith. He simply states that true faith will be
followed by works. The works do not save. They only validify the reality
of the salvation in an outward way.

One other thing. James was obviously responding in some way to the
teaching that salvation was by faith alone. He is dealing with those who
say that they have faith and therefore do not need works (see James 2:17-18).
The teaching that salvation was by faith was already known. Yet
James felt that they also (in addition to justification by faith) needed
to be justified by works. How could both apply? The word justify
specifically means to declare just. When Christ saves us, we are declare
just before the Father on the basis of the shed blood of Christ. That is
justification by faith. When someone trusts in the Lord as Saviour and
their life changes as a result, their own works declare that they have
been made just by Jesus Christ. That is justification by works.

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_in_frame.php?link=5004

It is clear that both James and Paul are talking to people who profess to be children of God, and in both cases Paul and James are challenging the validity of their hearers' conversion. However, each man is using a different yard stick upon which to base his challenge. Paul is saying, "You cannot be saved by grace unless it is 100% grace. Any mixture of works and grace totally destroys the truth of grace." For Paul (cf. Romans 4) salvation comes to the one who entirely quits working to earn salvation and turns in faith alone to the promise of God. "To him that worketh not" means exactly what it says. Paul is challenging the assurance of the legalist who would attempt to get into heaven by his own works.
James, on the other hand, is also challenging the salvation of his hearers but for a different reason. James is not talking to people who are trusting in works to get them to heaven. He is talking to people whose whole religion is made up of talking without any doing. He is talking to people who have no works in which to trust! James is not discussing the way of salvation but whether a given individual is really in the way of salvation. James is not discussing whether we are saved by faith or works, or a combination of the two, but rather, "What is the nature of saving faith?" Paul is declaring that man is saved by faith alone and James is saying that true faith is never alone but is always accompanied by works. James is talking about the nature of true saving faith. In so doing he is using the same terms as Paul. How are the following verses any different than the teaching of James?

The one thing that "work mongers" (Martin Luther's phrase) totally miss in this passage is the meaning of the word works. Verses 17 and 18 are as dogmatic as anything you can read. James forever kills easy-believism. However, the works that proves the validity of the true faith have nothing to do with the tables of the covenant, or Ten Commandments. The parable of verses 14–18 never mentions or in any way, either explicitly or implicitly, tie the works up with obeying those tablets. The whole 'fruit testing' is built on our feeding and clothing a hungry and naked brother. It is the royal law of love that is the standard for judging the faith that truly justifies. Me thinks that maybe we need a little more of both James and Paul on the subject of the works that prove we have saving faith.

The Book of James: An 'Epistle of Straw'?

Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant Reformation, referred to the book of James as an "epistle of straw." Frustrated by religious leaders who claimed this book supported their mistaken ideas that people could buy their salvation through monetary gifts to the church, Luther uttered his ill-advised phrase. Consumed in the debate, he went beyond a proper understanding of the Scriptures and dismissed James's statements that works are a necessary evidence of faith.

Luther was reacting strongly in response to the abuse and twisting of the book of James by the RCC. Some segments of the Adventist church should not get off any easier for also misrepresenting James in order to teach a works-based salvation.
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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Night please please we need to talk sometime. Not here. Private. Maybe IM or something. I can't read your post right now but I will when I can. Right now I'm in the Abyss again. But I saw you said its true and I want to pursue that line of thought with you. Would you have any time for me anytime in the next few day/night cycles?
 
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Jon0388g

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I'd rather it not conflict with the Bible.

The Reformation understanding of salvation in no way conflicts with the Bible.

It's no surprise you think this. Because obviously your interpretation of salvation is based heavily on the Reformers' interpretation.


The Reformers especially Luther rediscovered the importance of righteousness by faith, and this was present truth at that time, coming out of Catholic oppression etc. The Lord Himself had a message for the people then.
Balderdash. Justification by faith alone was never meant to be relevant truth for only a certain time alone. It will stand always as the most important, critical element of Christian theology. It is central, always at the forefront, just as much now as it was back in Luther's time.

Firstly, isn't Balderdash a boardgame? Lol.

Luther preached the importance of righteousness by faith, and very very well at that. Do not get me wrong. But he did so to the exclusion of obedience, and it's role to play in the salvation process. Luther did not have the sanctuary truth, as Adventists do, which clearly paints salvation in its fullest sense. Yes, I said it. Go on, have a fit.


But I do not think Luther had the entire picture.

On salvation, you better believe he did.

And you don't rever Luther like Adventists do EGW?

Do you hold Luther to a higher esteem than EGW?


I read somewhere that he did not believe the book of James was supposed to be part of Scripture.

What he said was that James was an 'epistle of straw'. Not even close to what you are saying. I have heard this misunderstanding over and over again used by TSDA's as a means to discredit Luther's premise as sloppy agape, cheap, new theology. Nope, never has and never will work. It stands mightier than ever.

Nowhere does the book of James endorse works as on the same level as justification. It is only to desperately grasp at some credibility for thier works-based TSDA salvation theology that the Traditionalists claim it does.

If only the TSDA's would spend as much time in the book of Romans as they do misinterpreting and idolizing the book of James...

Somehow, you have turned the debate from the topic of what Luther thought on James, to a railing accusation against TSDA's and their motives. Hmmm.


Perhaps we should start a thread on the books of James and Romans. What do you think?

Oh, and I could try and find some more quotes for you on what Luther actually said about James. I read them ages ago, but if you want to look at this issue more closely I will.


It seems that you and Brinsmead honor the Reformation as much as traditional Adventists honor Sister White.

What nonsense. Nice try, but that won't work with me.

What won't work with you? Do you or don't you?


I don't think that Adventists have the full picture yet either, but ours is fuller than the time of the Reformation, for sure.

In regards to salvation, not even close.


Oh really? Please quote from our official beliefs where we are so drastically far from the Reformer's "correct" understanding of salvation.



Your bark is worse than your bite, Night. ;)



Jon
 
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reddogs

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It's no surprise you think this. Because obviously your interpretation of salvation is based heavily on the Reformers' interpretation.




Firstly, isn't Balderdash a boardgame? Lol.

Luther preached the importance of righteousness by faith, and very very well at that. Do not get me wrong. But he did so to the exclusion of obedience, and it's role to play in the salvation process. Luther did not have the sanctuary truth, as Adventists do, which clearly paints salvation in its fullest sense. Yes, I said it. Go on, have a fit.




And you don't rever Luther like Adventists do EGW?

Do you hold Luther to a higher esteem than EGW?




Somehow, you have turned the debate from the topic of what Luther thought on James, to a railing accusation against TSDA's and their motives. Hmmm.


Perhaps we should start a thread on the books of James and Romans. What do you think?

Oh, and I could try and find some more quotes for you on what Luther actually said about James. I read them ages ago, but if you want to look at this issue more closely I will.




What won't work with you? Do you or don't you?





Oh really? Please quote from our official beliefs where we are so drastically far from the Reformer's "correct" understanding of salvation.



Your bark is worse than your bite, Night. ;)



Jon

You said something that caught my eye....

"..Luther preached the importance of righteousness by faith, and very very well at that. Do not get me wrong. But he did so to the exclusion of obedience..."

Why would he do that, was there something in his Catholic background that kept him from seeing the 'divine' progression of our love for God and our fellow man...

Red
 
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Jon0388g

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You said something that caught my eye....

"..Luther preached the importance of righteousness by faith, and very very well at that. Do not get me wrong. But he did so to the exclusion of obedience..."

Why would he do that, was there something in his Catholic background that kept him from seeing the 'divine' progression of our love for God and our fellow man...

Red


I don't think it was deliberate or anything.

I think he preached on what he was convicted of by the Holy Spirit. He was preaching on the light given to him at that time.


Jon
 
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