Breakthrough

[Woldeyesus]

What is the greatest breakthrough or important new discovery in the Holy Scriptures shared at the Transfiguration between Christ, Moses, Elijah, Peter, James and John with life-transforming and far-reaching effects (for the few)?

 

[razeontherock]

That the Law and the Prophets speak not only of Jesus in a sterile text type of way, but that they speak with Him, in a living way.

 

[Woldeyesus]

That the Law and the Prophets speak not only of Jesus in a sterile text type of way, but that they speak with Him, in a living way.

Absolutely! That's why they are immortalized. Aren't they?

More importantly, however, what's in the "breakthrough" for us?

 

[drich0150]

What is the greatest breakthrough or important new discovery in the Holy Scriptures shared at the Transfiguration between Christ, Moses, Elijah, Peter, James and John with life-transforming and far-reaching effects (for the few)?

If this "Breakthrough" was indeed shared between these men then how is it, that it is just now being discovered? Why has this been "revealed" only to "the Few?" Given the History of man, works of salvation, why is it just now God decides to reveal this "new doctrinal truth?"

 

[Woldeyesus]

As confirmed by the limited number of disciples qualified to be present in the Transfiguration and particularly in its follow-up, the answers to your questions are based on the nature of the hard way and narrow gate leading to eternal life, which as a rule few people will find (Matt. 7: 13-14).
Perhaps we can now move on to the nature, scope and conditions for the breakthrough as commonly characterized by the crowning life and death testimonies of Jesus, Moses (Deut. 34) and Elijah (2 Ki. 2) which have been part of the Scriptures for millenniums.

 

[drich0150]

As confirmed by the limited number of disciples qualified to be present in the Transfiguration and particularly in its follow-up, the answers to your questions are based on the nature of the hard way and narrow gate leading to eternal life, which as a rule few people will find (Matt. 7: 13-14).
Perhaps we can now move on to the nature, scope and conditions for the breakthrough as commonly characterized by the crowning life and death testimonies of Jesus, Moses (Deut. 34) and Elijah (2 Ki. 2) which have been part of the Scriptures for millenniums.

That's bunk, because what I have pointed out was the the "Narrow gate" was not even opened until the revelation you speak of was first penned. And because you have introduced it as a "New revelation" I should think that people like the apostles would not have access to this "New revelation." Which begs the questions:

What makes your faith greater than that of the apostles?

Why would God reveal this to you and not them or the subsequent generations after them?

Why exclusively to you or your faith?

Why complete all of that work on the cross just to keep the narrow gate closed until this generation, specifically your church?

 

[Woldeyesus]

“In the past, God spoke to our ancestors many times and in many ways through the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son.” (Heb. 1:1)
I wish what you called “bunk” is about me. It is not! As I have already submitted, the question actually refers to “the nature, scope and conditions for the breakthrough as jointly characterized by the crowning life-and-death testimonies of Jesus, Moses and Elijah”; or the outstanding truth revealed by Jesus Christ which deserves a reminder without any additions or subtractions!
The breakthrough, or the essence of the gospel, actually refers to the last in a long series of God’s self-revelations over time as documented in the books of Moses, the writings of the prophets and the Psalms (Gen. 2: 7b-9; 6: 9-22; 9: 1-17; 12: 1-3; 15: 1-21; 18: 1-33; 22: 1-18; 28: 10-22; 35: 1-15; Ex. 3: 1-15; 19:9 - 20:17; 24; Num. 21: 4-9; etc., etc.) and “finished” on the day of Christ consisting of the same-day happenings of death on the cross and glorification reflecting the power, brightness and exact likeness of God’s own being and glory (Matt. 27: 50-56; John 19: 30-37) opening the way to the “tree of life” in Paradise and, once and for all, making possible a new and living way of worshipping a knowable God (John 4: 21-26; 10: 37-38; Luke 9: 28-36; 23:43; Heb. 1-2; 10: 19-25).
The scale of “the God of the living”, which on one occasion is known to have included Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex. 3: 1-15; Matt. 22: 32) as well as Moses and Elijah on another occasion (Matt. 17: 1-13; Luke 9: 28-36), was extended and left open-ended for posterity (John 11: 25-26) in Christ’s work on the cross!
Therefore, I welcome any non-personal questions, suggestions, clarifications and discussions specifically related to the greatest breakthrough in the Scriptures!

 

[Julian of York]

Thank you for your question. It seems to be asked in a spirit of truth seeking,and I will answer it from a prayerful attitude.
Let's consider a couple of things:
1)What is the connection between Jesus,Moses and Elijah?
All three fasted for forty days, were voices of God in the spiritual wilderness. (Moses's ministry with wayward Israel in the desert, Elijah's ministry with a dying Israel and Christ ' ministry with a spiritually dead Israel)
Remember God promised to send a Prophet like unto Moses:Jesus
Remember God promised to send his servant in the power of Elijah before Jesus:John the Baptist
2)Where were Elijah and Moses graves? Moses is still hidden,Elijah left by Fiery Chariot
3)Where did Moses and Elijah spend the time between their deaths/removal until the conference on the Mount of transfiguration? Their bodies as in Daniel 12:2 in the dust of the earth,their souls with Abraham (Luke 16) They were NOT physically present with God,and had many things that they would like to know and understand about the Crucifixion. Remember that Moses and Elijah were said to be talking to Christ about His soon sacrificial death. They were like the angels and prophets that the New Testament said desired to "look into" these things.
When you say that this concerned a "Breakthrough",you are absolutely correct: The Mighty God of the Universe sent His Son in the flesh to "Breakthrough" to common,depraved mankind and make some of them new,and spend eternity with Him in Heaven.
It is impossible to have a bigger,more important "Breakthrough".

Julian of York

 

[Woldeyesus]

Thank you for your question. It seems to be asked in a spirit of truth seeking,and I will answer it from a prayerful attitude.
Let's consider a couple of things:
1)What is the connection between Jesus,Moses and Elijah?
All three fasted for forty days, were voices of God in the spiritual wilderness. (Moses's ministry with wayward Israel in the desert, Elijah's ministry with a dying Israel and Christ ' ministry with a spiritually dead Israel)
Remember God promised to send a Prophet like unto Moses:Jesus
Remember God promised to send his servant in the power of Elijah before Jesus:John the Baptist
2)Where were Elijah and Moses graves? Moses is still hidden,Elijah left by Fiery Chariot
3)Where did Moses and Elijah spend the time between their deaths/removal until the conference on the Mount of transfiguration? Their bodies as in Daniel 12:2 in the dust of the earth,their souls with Abraham (Luke 16) They were NOT physically present with God,and had many things that they would like to know and understand about the Crucifixion. Remember that Moses and Elijah were said to be talking to Christ about His soon sacrificial death. They were like the angels and prophets that the New Testament said desired to "look into" these things.
When you say that this concerned a "Breakthrough",you are absolutely correct: The Mighty God of the Universe sent His Son in the flesh to "Breakthrough" to common,depraved mankind and make some of them new,and spend eternity with Him in Heaven.
It is impossible to have a bigger,more important "Breakthrough".

Julian of York

“It is written in your Law that God said, ‘you are gods. We know that what the scripture says is true forever; and called those people gods, the people to whom his message was given.’” (JESUS CHRIST, John 10: 34-35)
Thank you for your highly considered thoughts!
I submit that the breakthrough consists of resumption in propagation of a spiritual series beginning with “the living God” (eternal life), redefined as “the God of the living”, with the last-named modeled on Adam: first made from matter and later instilled with God’s “life-giving breath”, a.k.a., the Spirit or the image of God, producing in man firsthand knowledge of God and typically memorialized in “the tree of life” –herald of the cross of Christ. Characteristically, the series continues with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Elijah, etc.
The Transfiguration is a foretaste of the greater benefits of firsthand knowledge of Jesus as the “the Messiah, Son of the living God”, defined in his perfect and diacritical death (Matt. 16: 13-28; 17: 1-13; 26:64; 27: 50-56) and heralding a new and living order of worshipping a knowable God in Spirit and truth and independent of all religions (John 4: 21-26).

 

[drich0150]

“In the past, God spoke to our ancestors many times and in many ways through the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son.” (Heb. 1:1)
I wish what you called “bunk” is about me. It is not! As I have already submitted, the question actually refers to “the nature, scope and conditions for the breakthrough as jointly characterized by the crowning life-and-death testimonies of Jesus, Moses and Elijah”; or the outstanding truth revealed by Jesus Christ which deserves a reminder without any additions or subtractions!
The breakthrough, or the essence of the gospel, actually refers to the last in a long series of God’s self-revelations over time as documented in the books of Moses, the writings of the prophets and the Psalms (Gen. 2: 7b-9; 6: 9-22; 9: 1-17; 12: 1-3; 15: 1-21; 18: 1-33; 22: 1-18; 28: 10-22; 35: 1-15; Ex. 3: 1-15; 19:9 - 20:17; 24; Num. 21: 4-9; etc., etc.) and “finished” on the day of Christ consisting of the same-day happenings of death on the cross and glorification reflecting the power, brightness and exact likeness of God’s own being and glory (Matt. 27: 50-56; John 19: 30-37) opening the way to the “tree of life” in Paradise and, once and for all, making possible a new and living way of worshipping a knowable God (John 4: 21-26; 10: 37-38; Luke 9: 28-36; 23:43; Heb. 1-2; 10: 19-25).
The scale of “the God of the living”, which on one occasion is known to have included Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex. 3: 1-15; Matt. 22: 32) as well as Moses and Elijah on another occasion (Matt. 17: 1-13; Luke 9: 28-36), was extended and left open-ended for posterity (John 11: 25-26) in Christ’s work on the cross!
Therefore, I welcome any non-personal questions, suggestions, clarifications and discussions specifically related to the greatest breakthrough in the Scriptures!

The "bunk" i referred to is not directed to you personally or the scriptures directly. I Very specifically identified your misuseage of the scriptures that are originally intended to be used to describe the wide and narrow gates to salvation, and how you applied these verses to sell your "New revelation." I also called into question the nature and reasoning of this "revelation" in the light of Christ's completed work on the cross. None of which you seem to be able to address. In fact it appears that you have intentionally misrepresented my original statement to satisfy an argument you have prepared to defend, none of which is applicable to the questions I asked.

Also know true Revelation does not happen in verse fragments that have been taken from their context and recompiled with other fragments to literally spell out a "New" doctrine. As witnessed by Paul's examples, True biblical revelation happens over the course of entire chapters, and even entire Books Like Romans and Acts, so that context can be established, and the "new Doctrine" can be proofed. For example The new Revelations that described a Freedom in Christ is Identified and explained from many many different angels in Romans. Because before then such a concept did not exist.

Just so there is no confusion The actual content of your new revelation has not even been discussed at this point. I am simply questioning the validity of a claim of a "New" revelation at this point in man's history, and I have addressed some of your misrepresentation of scripture. Also I have explained some biblical examples of what form "new Revelations" come in. I also point out the discrepancy between God's known method of revealing a new message, and the way you have compiled yours. If you are going to respond I ask that you stay to these or at least relevant point to the matters at hand.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If this "Breakthrough" was indeed shared between these men then how is it, that it is just now being discovered? Why has this been "revealed" only to "the Few?" Given the History of man, works of salvation, why is it just now God decides to reveal this "new doctrinal truth?"

I don't think this is 'new doctrinal truth', just seeing a deeper meaning in the incident. This can be done with many events in the bible.

 

[drich0150]

I don't think this rises to the level of 'new doctrinal truth'. There are many bombshell 'breakthrough' incidents in scripture.

There is quite a difference between a "Break through" and a:

important new discovery in the Holy Scriptures shared at the Transfiguration between Christ, Moses, Elijah, Peter, James and John with life-transforming and far-reaching effects (for the few)?

How is a grandiose statement such as the last one not being represented as a new doctrinal truth?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

There is quite a difference between a "Break through" and a:


How is a grandiose statement such as the last one not being represented as a new doctrinal truth?

Doesn't a new doctrinal truth have to be researched and approved by major Christian churches? Otherwise it's just the opinion of a few students.

 

[drich0150]

Doesn't a new doctrinal truth have to be researched and approved by major Christian churches? Otherwise it's just the opinion of a few students.

Appearantly not if you are apart of a Faith: "Other-church"

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Appearantly not if you are apart of a Faith: "Other-church"

You may be right. As you can see I too am 'other church'. I cannot use the Christian symbol here because I, along with Paul and Peter, don't consider the Holy Spirit to be a 'person', as is God the Father and Jesus. To me the failure to acknowledge the Holy Spirit in the greetings of several letters written by them to the early churches, where the 'Comforter' was diligently working, is confirmation of this (to me at least). In fact it occurs to me that the Holy Spirit was the most important and obvious force in the formation of the early church. It would be utterly wrong to not acknowledge 'his' presence in those greetings. But in the greetings of letter after letter 'he' is conspiciously absent. Could this rank as 'new doctrinal truth'?

 

[drich0150]

You may be right. As you can see I too am 'other church'. I cannot use the Christian symbol here because I, along with Paul and Peter, don't consider the Holy Spirit to be a 'person', as is God the Father and Jesus. To me the failure to acknowledge the Holy Spirit in the greetings of several letters written by them to the early churches, where the 'Comforter' was diligently working, is confirmation of this (to me at least). In fact it occurs to me that the Holy Spirit was the most important and obvious force in the formation of the early church. It would be utterly wrong to not acknowledge 'his' presence in those greetings. But in the greetings of letter after letter 'he' is conspicuously absent. Could this rank as 'new doctrinal truth'?

If your take on the Paul's and Peter's actions differed from their original intent, or if your current account differs from the biblical one then yes.

As it is you appear to be imposing modern western (human) culture on something that may not even apply. That affords you an opportunity to at best, speak where the bible is silent (If you choose to over look all of the direct passages that establish the deity and personage of the Holy Spirit.)

Are these the actions of a humble man? Are these the actions of a servant? Are we not called to be both?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If your take on the Paul's and Peter's actions differed from their original intent, or if your current account differs from the biblical one then yes.

As it is you appear to be imposing modern western (human) culture on something that may not even apply. That affords you an opportunity to at best, speak where the bible is silent (If you choose to over look all of the direct passages that establish the deity and personage of the Holy Spirit.)

Are these the actions of a humble man? Are these the actions of a servant? Are we not called to be both?

Humble before God, yes. Willing to accept the doctrinal dictates of the RCC?In the words of John Wayne, 'not hardly'.

 

[drich0150]

Humble before God, yes. Willing to accept the doctrinal dictates of the RCC?In the words of John Wayne, 'not hardly'.

Unfortunately for both of us John Wayne was not an Apostle. So that means we are relegated to yielding not to a specific brand of religion, but to the Works of the Holy Spirit that are found in the pages of the bible. This means speaking where the bible speaks and remaining silent where the bible is silent..

We are Not to pretend to speak with the authority of God by cut and pasting various scripture together to underline a philosophy coined by the "Duke" or anyone else.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Unfortunately for both of us John Wayne was not an Apostle. So that means we are relegated to yielding not to a specific brand of religion, but to the Works of the Holy Spirit that are found in the pages of the bible. This means speaking where the bible speaks and remaining silent where the bible is silent..

We are Not to pretend to speak with the authority of God by cut and pasting various scripture together to underline a philosophy coined by the "Duke" or anyone else.

I didn't mean to imply that John Wayne rejected the Trinity, just that I like the 'not hardly' way he (his movie character) often voiced strong disagreement. Regarding 'cutting and pasting', my bible says 'here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept in regard to learning God's word (this used to be called 'scripture chains'). Also, the bible is sketchy and understated in many ways. There's a lot of room between the lines to flesh out meanings. Personal bible study is not to be an exercise to merely rehearse what has already been taught. The bible is alive with meanings that are often overlooked by scholars, in their zeal to formulate doctrine. Some scholarly errors are quite egregious, like translating 'pascha' into 'Easter', then building doctrine around it.

 

[drich0150]

I didn't mean to imply that John Wayne rejected the Trinity, just that I like the 'not hardly' way he (his movie character) often voiced strong disagreement. Regarding 'cutting and pasting', my bible says 'here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept in regard to learning God's word (this used to be called 'scripture chains'). Also, the bible is sketchy and understated in many ways. There's a lot of room between the lines to flesh out meanings. Personal bible study is not to be an exercise to merely rehearse what has already been taught. The bible is alive with meanings that are often overlooked by scholars, in their zeal to formulate doctrine. Some scholarly errors are quite egregious, like translating 'pascha' into 'Easter', then building doctrine around it.

How does this "Zeal" differ from the "zeal" that has one formulating a doctrine that removes the personage of the Holy Spirit, for the lack of a personal greeting?