Branch Theory

[Searching_for_Christ]

The CoE is simply a further deviation from Rome. One only needs to venture into the anglican, old catholic forum and realize there ideal of struggling and overcoming sin is to indulge in it. In fact there is no such thing as sin in anglicanism, yesterdays sin is tomorrow's virtue. Rasputin would have loved modern day anglicanism. How does an anglican overcome sin? Stop considering it a sin.

There was a time when homosexuality was wrong even in britain, today the anglicans ordain them as their shepherds , and the laity is sooo proud.
Abortion? No biggie.
Fasting? Whats that.
Tradition? Only when it conforms to the caucasian wests liberal values.
Scripture? Christ's teachings should be interpreted by 2011 standards, virgin birth and ressurection is optional belief.
Pre-marital sex? Science tells us its natural
Animal day blessings in church? There all for it, great marketing tool.
Anglicanism has morphed into one of the creepiest sects. I'm sorry if i offended anyone.

This is why there is so much schism within the Anglican Church, as more Orthodox Churches leave the less Orthodox.

 

[JohntheTheologian]

The CoE is simply a further deviation from Rome. One only needs to venture into the anglican, old catholic forum and realize there ideal of struggling and overcoming sin is to indulge in it. In fact there is no such thing as sin in anglicanism, yesterdays sin is tomorrow's virtue. Rasputin would have loved modern day anglicanism. How does an anglican overcome sin? Stop considering it a sin.

There was a time when homosexuality was wrong even in britain, today the anglicans ordain them as their shepherds , and the laity is sooo proud.
Abortion? No biggie.
Fasting? Whats that.
Tradition? Only when it conforms to the caucasian wests liberal values.
Scripture? Christ's teachings should be interpreted by 2011 standards, virgin birth and ressurection is optional belief.
Pre-marital sex? Science tells us its natural
Animal day blessings in church? There all for it, great marketing tool.
Anglicanism has morphed into one of the creepiest sects. I'm sorry if i offended anyone.

I'm afraid you have offended someone. That's akin to saying that all Orthodox are Bosnian-massacring genocidal maniacs. You can't take the worst examples of bad leadership in the church and apply it to all those who are members. I know that the church of which I am a part makes some bad decisions, but I try to be a good Christian nonetheless. Please don't misrepresent me as being a member of a creepy sect who doens't actually have any faith.

 

[MKJ]

Once you sever Apostolic Succession, the only way to get it back is to be joined to an Apostolic group. There are only 3 Groups with Apostolic Succession that is valid, The Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church (including the Copts), and the Roman Catholic Church. Once the English Church severed ties with Rome the only way it could get valid Apostolic Succession was to become Orthodox. There simply is no other way around it.

How does Rome have apostolic succession from an Orthodox perspective? And why would you accept their view of Anglican orders, which is based on Roman principles? Their analysis is pretty dodgy even from a Catholic perspective

If Orthodoxy is where they needed to be then, it's where they need to be now--so why not do something about that now?

Like join an Eastern Church? If the Church of the English Reformation had managed to come back into communion with the East, I don't see them as having everyone move to an Eastern Church that was set up, or even every parishes suddenly adopting new vestments, liturgy, and so on. It worries me that now these things seem to be what is being asked by some.

I would actually be very interested to see whole parishes possibly move into Western Rite Orthodoxy, but that can't happen if every orthodox Anglican abandons their parish. Especially those in parishes that might actually at some point consider such a thing.`

 

[buzuxi02]

I'm afraid you have offended someone. That's akin to saying that all Orthodox are Bosnian-massacring genocidal maniacs. You can't take the worst examples of bad leadership in the church and apply it to all those who are members. I know that the church of which I am a part makes some bad decisions, but I try to be a good Christian nonetheless. Please don't misrepresent me as being a member of a creepy sect who doens't actually have any faith.

John im sure your a good christian but i only see african leaders of your church defend christianity. The africans are doing their best to battle the heresies of so called 'western values'. Unfortunately Desmond Tutu tows the western liberal line just like the clown of canterbury.

 

[JohntheTheologian]

John im sure your a good christian but i only see african leaders of your church defend christianity. The africans are doing their best to battle the heresies of so called 'western values'. Unfortunately Desmond Tutu tows the western liberal line just like the clown of canterbury.

There are others, but Africa has the manpower nowadays.

There are plenty of clowns in the Anglican Church, but, for all that I disagree with some of the things he says, Williams is not one of them. If there's one thing that can be said about him, it's that he's hugely intelligent. Occasionally misguided, but he's a very clever man...

 

[lawndartboy]

No. The Anglicans do NOT have Apostolic succession. The head of their church is a monarch, not a bishop.

Excuse me? Ever heard of the Archbishop of Canterbury?

 

[lawndartboy]

As well, I would be careful using this "monarch over the church logic" just remember that the same logic could be applied to Constantine in the Orthodox church.

 

[lawndartboy]

By my calculations that would mean, according to you, that the CoE invented Branch Theology this century.

Besides that matter, I would be interested in any reference you might produce to support your thesis. As an Anglican I have never heard of the Anglican Church advocating Branch Theology. Maybe I missed something.

I think it is much less popular in low church minded churches, the church i was a part of the branch theory was very popular, its funny because in theology they are very high church but in practice very low in general, go figure!

 

[RobNJ]

Excuse me? Ever heard of the Archbishop of Canterbury?

Yes, and he lost his validity, when he separated himself from his patriarch & formed his own "jurisdiction"

 

[lawndartboy]

Yes, and he lost his validity, when he separated himself from his patriarch & formed his own "jurisdiction"

Really? when did this occur?

 

[buzuxi02]

One reason i reject the 'so-called' western rite liturgy of St Tikhon is because its an anglican liturgy with clear overtones of the branch theory. The early church never considered the arians, nestorians, monophysites, cathari, quatodecimans as branches of the same church but sects which have fallen away from it.

 

[RobNJ]

Really? when did this occur?

1534

 

[lawndartboy]

One reason i reject the 'so-called' western rite liturgy of St Tikhon is because its an anglican liturgy with clear overtones of the branch theory. The early church never considered the arians, nestorians, monophysites, cathari, quatodecimans as branches of the same church but sects which have fallen away from it.

How does it have clear overtones to the branch theory? The point of the western rite is to establish a western style liturgy with Orthodox dogma and belief which they have accomplished. Do you think the liturgy of St. John Chystostom (which is truly awesome) is the one litugy to rule them all? I can tell you that the Orthodox celts didnt use this liturgy previous to the roman invasion and in the early church there were several liturgies being used, but they were unified in faith.

 

[MKJ]

1534

If the Bishop of Rome in fact has the rightful authority of the Patriarch of the West, shouldn't all Orthodox Christians in the West be under him?

If he isn't, why would English Christians have to follow him? Should they follow him into doctrinal error?

I really don't get this argument and I wish someone could explain it - I understand the value of obedience to leaders even sometimes in questionable circumstances, but calling for others to do it but not oneself seems odd.

 

[buzuxi02]

How does it have clear overtones to the branch theory? The point of the western rite is to establish a western style liturgy with Orthodox dogma and belief which they have accomplished. Do you think the liturgy of St. John Chystostom (which is truly awesome) is the one litugy to rule them all? I can tell you that the Orthodox celts didnt use this liturgy previous to the roman invasion and in the early church there were several liturgies being used, but they were unified in faith.

The liturgy of st tikhon is a protestant liturgy based on the anglican liturgy which espouses the branch theory. It was meant for anglicans who wanted to retain the old baggage but be under an Orthodox bishop.

 

[Dorothea]

What is your opinion on this?

In the 20th century there have been a variety of positions taken by the various Eastern Orthodox Churches on the validity of Anglican orders. In 1922 the Patriarch of Constantinople recognized them as valid. [34] He wrote: "That the orthodox theologians who have scientifically examined the question have almost unanimously come to the same conclusions and have declared themselves as accepting the validity of Anglican Orders." Succeeding judgments, however, have been more conflicting. The Eastern Orthodox churches require a totality of common teaching to recognize orders and in this broader view find ambiguities in Anglican teaching and practice problematic. Accordingly, in practice Anglican clergy who convert to Orthodoxy are treated as if they had not been ordained and must be ordained in the Eastern Orthodox communion as would a lay person.-wikipedia

Who was the EP at the time, Livin?

 

[Dorothea]

one Bishop does not speak for the Church, the Church speaks through the Church. so it would take Orthodoxy to say that Anglican orders are valid, or that they have Apostolic succession. and when that happens, the Anglicans will be Orthodox with a nice British flavor.

Like Bishop Kallistos Ware.

 

[Dorothea]

I dont think anyone who knows anything would consider Meletios (the ep at the time) a canonical bishop.

Ok, moving along through the thread. You answered my question. Thanks.

 

[lawndartboy]

The liturgy of st tikhon is a protestant liturgy based on the anglican liturgy which espouses the branch theory. It was meant for anglicans who wanted to retain the old baggage but be under an Orthodox bishop.

I would ask that you elaborate on what you are refering to when you say "old baggage"? I dont know if you are aware but much of the anglican liturgy is based in anchient western christian liturgics (pre-schism). In fact you will see similarities between it and the orthodox liturgy. I just dont see how the western rite orthodoxy is at all protestant or espousing the branch theory since it's goal is to keep the good and Orthodox elements from anglicanism and dispose of the protestant (especially calvanist) influences from the reformation. If i am incorrect please enlighten me and try to be specific.

 

[Gregorios]

If the Bishop of Rome in fact has the rightful authority of the Patriarch of the West, shouldn't all Orthodox Christians in the West be under him?

If he isn't, why would English Christians have to follow him? Should they follow him into doctrinal error?

I really don't get this argument and I wish someone could explain it - I understand the value of obedience to leaders even sometimes in questionable circumstances, but calling for others to do it but not oneself seems odd.

The CofE breaking away from Rome is a difficult thing..Rome was and is in a state of Schism but the schism was made worse by the Reformation..I don't know honestly, it seems to me the Pope lost his validity as Patriarch of the West when he lead the Latin Church into schism and it also seems that any role he had in the west would be assumed by the next in rank according to the diptychs which would be the Patriarch of Constantinople. The real issue is that England broke away and created their own jurisdiction, the canonical and appropriate action would have been to petition Constantinople for union with them rather than creating their own jurisdiction. This was almost a reality about 40 years ago..but then..well we know what happend.