Brain vs Soul

[juvenissun]

I haven't read the responses so if I am redundant in mine I apologize in advance. Think of the brain as a physical transmitter. If something malfunctions and changes the physical aspects of it, the brain has the ability to adapt and a person's identity in the process is changed. If they no longer have the connection they once had with God..the transmitter is malfunctioning it isn't surprising that they may believe He doesn't exist. Our souls are somewhat filtered in through the workings of the brain and if that changes so does the way it is filtered. I believe that once a physical person accepts Jesus as His Savior he is saved. Period. If that person no longer has a memory of that experience in his/her physical form does not effect the spiritual side of the person who has been given to God as His child. IMHO.

We read that people could be possessed by demon and have an entirely different personality afterward.
What if the demon never come out of that person? Is the soul of that person turned to be evil?
No, whatever happened to that person after the possession has nothing to do with that person any more.

 

[Oncedeceived]

We read that people could be possessed by demon and have an entirely different personality afterward.
What if the demon never come out of that person? Is the soul of that person turned to be evil?
No, whatever happened to that person after the possession has nothing to do with that person any more.

A demon and the Holy Spirit can not be in the same person. If one is saved by the blood of Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells within them and He doesn't share residence with demons.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Since God is magic, then anything is possible.

God is magic? Who has said God is "magic"?

 

[juvenissun]

A demon and the Holy Spirit can not be in the same person. If one is saved by the blood of Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells within them and He doesn't share residence with demons.

You are right. The demon possessed person must not be a Christian before.

I see the spiritual maturing process as an irreversible process. In case any outside factor affected the maturity, then the soul of the person would stay or halt at the maximum maturity. That identifies the person in his afterlife. For example, President Ronald Reagan, his soul should not be affected during his suffering of the Alzheimer disease. The quality of his soul in his afterlife should be the one before he acquired the disease.

 

[fatboys]

This question is similar to another interested one:

In the afterlife, what would be the age of the (resurrected) forever life? If I live to my very old age, would I be a person like an old man or a young man? What is the age of my revived soul?

Similar one could be asked to a Christian with Alzheimer disease.

I believe the Bible HAS the answer to this type of question.

33

 

[Hawkins]

It's not just about the soul, it's also about God. Under the strict control of God. How the soul actually works is not exploitable by humans. The Tree of Life is well guarded from the reach of humans, such that humans have no way to go beyond the physical death to see how life continues.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You are right. The demon possessed person must not be a Christian before.

I see the spiritual maturing process as an irreversible process. In case any outside factor affected the maturity, then the soul of the person would stay or halt at the maximum maturity. That identifies the person in his afterlife. For example, President Ronald Reagan, his soul should not be affected during his suffering of the Alzheimer disease. The quality of his soul in his afterlife should be the one before he acquired the disease.

I agree.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The most plausible version of this is that the soul is an emergent phenomenon of the brain. Saying it’s just material is like saying that a book is just ink and paper. In a literal sense it’s true, but saying that it’s just ink and paper misses just about everything that matters about the book.

I don't agree with this comparision.
That which is "more" about a book then merely the materials it is made of, is entirely conceptual. The "content" of the book only exists between the ears of humans, by agreement of what the strings of symbols mean.

If however, you wish to call a "soul" nothing more or less then a "concept", then I could get on board with that.

I agree that I have a "mind", but I also consider that to be not more then a "concept" which arises through the neural network in my brain.

When my brain stops working / existing, so does the emergent "mind". They are one and the same.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I don't find talk of "souls" in any way helpful in my work as a neuropsychologist. I feel the same way about thetans.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I don't agree with this comparision.
That which is "more" about a book then merely the materials it is made of, is entirely conceptual. The "content" of the book only exists between the ears of humans, by agreement of what the strings of symbols mean.

If however, you wish to call a "soul" nothing more or less then a "concept", then I could get on board with that.

I agree that I have a "mind", but I also consider that to be not more then a "concept" which arises through the neural network in my brain.

When my brain stops working / existing, so does the emergent "mind". They are one and the same.

DogmaHunter, have you ever lost someone you love? I am asking for a very important reason and one which does go with your premise that the mind is an attribute of the brain.

 

[mindlight]

A demon and the Holy Spirit can not be in the same person. If one is saved by the blood of Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells within them and He doesn't share residence with demons.

That seems logical but actually scripture does not demand it. I remember meeting a gay man who once worked for YWAM who seemed to have both. Good and evil are at war in all our souls. Secular people today might call this schizoid or multiple personalities. In some people consciousness seems so broken that you are talking to a crowd of contradictory personalities.

 

[mindlight]

I was digging around at work and found a notebook with a 46 page printout (front and back) of a series of essays I printed years ago, while doing office duty one Saturdayr. These essays purport to demonstrate that the evidence is against the notion of a "soul" that inhabits the human body/heart/mind. That in fact who we are is material, only material. The essays mainly makes their case with numerous examples of people who's personalities drastically changed due to brain illnesses or injuries. Several of the people were devout Christians and one a Jew, all who became disinterested in their former faiths.

When I read this years ago I had a feeling of vertigo, of losing my sense of self, if only momentarily.

Here are the links to the essays:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/

If a person's personality can change dramatically due to trauma or disease to the brain, is there really then such a thing as a "soul"? Or even a permanent thing we call a "person"? If a Christian has a brain injury and no longer believes in his faith, is he then damned? Who is the real person, the former or the latter?

An atheist person close to me recently died. She had a brain injury that impaired her ability to construct thoughts and communicate emotions. She was not herself in the sense that the controls and filters she imposed were no longer in place. She was less able hide her true thoughts and feelings. It was not pretty. But if your thesis is that there is no soul without brain I would have to disagree. The inner life of a person cements itself in everything from habitual actions, muscle memories and in deep seated engrained attitudes. Angry or bitter atheists cannot hide themselves so cleverly when their brains break would be my observation. I remember once working in a mental hospital. The broken and chaotic expressions of these people lacked intellectual coherence but nonetheless expressed something uniquely theres. I have no problem refering to them as wounded souls.

 

[mindlight]

If your brain is damaged and the connections between the spiritual intelligence is changed then things are going to look different. The brain is setup when we are born without any abnormalities to connect spirit with the physical. Because we are mortal it is not a perfect connection. One of the reasons we are here is to discipline our physical to be submissive to the spirit we have inside us so we can become more perfect and have more control. When the brain is damaged it can no longer work properly nGod knows this and that is considered when we are judged. Of course there are events that can happen in our lives that affect the way we think. I know of people who have lost faith in God who were very devout after they have gone through a traumatic experience.

Yes great pain or unendurable experiences often defy the explanations the brain can offer. Faith and hope can sustain a person without an answer to the why of things.

I wonder if a gift like that of tongues is part of the spiritual training. One can align ones soul with God without the intervention of rational processes.

Also Christian music can stir people without mental coherence. They sing songs through their brokeness which hint at a completeness that will one day be restored to them.

 

[DogmaHunter]

DogmaHunter, have you ever lost someone you love? I am asking for a very important reason and one which does go with your premise that the mind is an attribute of the brain.

1. it is not a premise, rather a conclusion that I draw based on observation

2. why can't you just immediatly make your point, instead of trying to "trap" / "lead" me to it?

3. off course I have lost loved ones, unfortunatly

4. appeal to emotion, coming up next?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

An atheist person close to me recently died. She had a brain injury that impaired her ability to construct thoughts and communicate emotions. She was not herself in the sense that the controls and filters she imposed were no longer in place. She was less able hide her true thoughts and feelings. It was not pretty. But if your thesis is that there is no soul without brain I would have to disagree. The inner life of a person cements itself in everything from habitual actions, muscle memories and in deep seated engrained attitudes. Angry or bitter atheists cannot hide themselves so cleverly when their brains break would be my observation. I remember once working in a mental hospital. The broken and chaotic expressions of these people lacked intellectual coherence but nonetheless expressed something uniquely theres. I have no problem refering to them as wounded souls.

I'm somewhat confused by what you are saying here. Could you please clarify?

 

[Oncedeceived]

We read that people could be possessed by demon and have an entirely different personality afterward.
What if the demon never come out of that person? Is the soul of that person turned to be evil?
No, whatever happened to that person after the possession has nothing to do with that person any more.

I don't know. Would the person be possessed if they had the Holy Spirit within them?

 

[Oncedeceived]

1. it is not a premise, rather a conclusion that I draw based on observation

2. why can't you just immediatly make your point, instead of trying to "trap" / "lead" me to it?

3. off course I have lost loved ones, unfortunatly

4. appeal to emotion, coming up next?

1. You draw a conclusion...if your "conclusion" is true then you don't draw a conclusion, you simply think only that which your chemical reactions are providing.
2. If you have reason and rational behind your "conclusions" then you can't be led or trapped by anything that I might bring forward as it you only have one way of looking at the world and that is that the brain is all there is and the mind is an attribute of that brain.
3. So having lost those that you love you have felt the pain of that loss. You have the sorrow with you when thinking about not having them in your life any longer...yet if what you say is true...this too is only a chemical outcome and has nothing to do with love or any other "real" emotion. Love for family is just an illusion provided by the chemical makeup of your brain if what you claim is true.
4. If what you say is true...emotion is nothing more than an illusion.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

3. So having lost those that you love you have felt the pain of that loss. You have the sorrow with you when thinking about not having them in your life any longer...yet if what you say is true...this too is only a chemical outcome and has nothing to do with love or any other "real" emotion. Love for family is just an illusion provided by the chemical makeup of your brain if what you claim is true.
4. If what you say is true...emotion is nothing more than an illusion.

This makes no sense at all. How does the neurological origins of a feeling preclude it from being real?

 

[DogmaHunter]

1. You draw a conclusion...if your "conclusion" is true then you don't draw a conclusion, you simply think only that which your chemical reactions are providing.

That makes zero sense.
Brains work the way they work. It is a fact that the brain allows for thinking, reasoning, etc. How it accomplishes this, physically, doesn't change anything about the fact that it indeed accomplishes this.

2. If you have reason and rational behind your "conclusions" then you can't be led or trapped by anything that I might bring forward as it you only have one way of looking at the world and that is that the brain is all there is and the mind is an attribute of that brain.

Make your point already.
Clearly you asked a question only to then jump on the answer to make the point you wanted to make from the beginning.

I just don't get why you need to play these games. Just make your point and get on with it.

3. So having lost those that you love you have felt the pain of that loss. You have the sorrow with you when thinking about not having them in your life any longer...yet if what you say is true...this too is only a chemical outcome and has nothing to do with love or any other "real" emotion. Love for family is just an illusion provided by the chemical makeup of your brain if what you claim is true.

Same as above.
Emotions are factually real.
No matter how they physically come about.

You are making an extremely poor argument.

4. If what you say is true...emotion is nothing more than an illusion.

No. Emotions are demonstrably real.

 

[fatboys]

Yes great pain or unendurable experiences often defy the explanations the brain can offer. Faith and hope can sustain a person without an answer to the why of things.

I wonder if a gift like that of tongues is part of the spiritual training. One can align ones soul with God without the intervention of rational processes.

Also Christian music can stir people without mental coherence. They sing songs through their brokeness which hint at a completeness that will one day be restored to them.

I agree. One of th reasons we are here is so our physical can unify or as you said align together