Brain vs Soul

[nightflight]

I was digging around at work and found a notebook with a 46 page printout (front and back) of a series of essays I printed years ago, while doing office duty one Saturdayr. These essays purport to demonstrate that the evidence is against the notion of a "soul" that inhabits the human body/heart/mind. That in fact who we are is material, only material. The essays mainly makes their case with numerous examples of people who's personalities drastically changed due to brain illnesses or injuries. Several of the people were devout Christians and one a Jew, all who became disinterested in their former faiths.

When I read this years ago I had a feeling of vertigo, of losing my sense of self, if only momentarily.

Here are the links to the essays:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/

If a person's personality can change dramatically due to trauma or disease to the brain, is there really then such a thing as a "soul"? Or even a permanent thing we call a "person"? If a Christian has a brain injury and no longer believes in his faith, is he then damned? Who is the real person, the former or the latter?

 

[Chesterton]

If there's a soul it may operate through material means as the rest of us does. It's indicated in scripture that God makes allowances for the physical state, just as a man born rich may not be judged the same as a man born poor.

 

[cloudyday2]

If we do have souls, it is possible that our souls move from body to body without realizing the changes. One moment, my soul is in my body, and the next moment my soul is in my cat's body, and then my soul is in a nearby tree.

 

[ewq1938]

Who is the author of this 46 page document?

I was digging around at work and found a notebook with a 46 page printout (front and back) of a series of essays I printed years ago, while doing office duty one Saturday at work. This essays purports to demonstrate that the evidence is against the notion of a "soul" that inhabits the human body/heart/mind. That in fact who we are is material, only material. The essays mainly makes their case with numerous examples of people who's personality drastically changed due to brain illnesses or injuries. Several of the people were devout Christians and a Jew, who became disinterested in their former faiths.

When I read this years ago I had a feeling of vertigo, of losing my sense of self, if only momentarily.

Here are the links to the essays:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/

If a person's personality can change dramatically due to trauma or disease to the brain, is there really then such a thing as a "soul"? Or even a permanent thing we call a "person"? If a Christian has a brain injury and no longer believes in his faith, is he then damned? Who is the real person, the former or the latter?

 

[ewq1938]

If we do have souls, it is possible that our souls move from body to body without realizing the changes.

Not according to the bible which states at death the souls departs, not during bodily life.

Genesis 35:18
18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

 

[hedrick]

The most plausible version of this is that the soul is an emergent phenomenon of the brain. Saying it’s just material is like saying that a book is just ink and paper. In a literal sense it’s true, but saying that it’s just ink and paper misses just about everything that matters about the book.

 

[cloudyday2]

The most plausible version of this is that the soul is an emergent phenomenon of the brain. Saying it’s just material is like saying that a book is just ink and paper. In a literal sense it’s true, but saying that it’s just ink and paper misses just about everything that matters about the book.

Rather than saying the book has a soul, we should say that the book is only ink and paper without a reader. The ink and paper creates a change in the brain of the reader depending on the personality of that reader, the culture of that reader, etc.

Similarly, the soul of a human is the way that human affects his/her environment? Our soul exists in the memories we create in everybody we meet?

This is why salvation must be universal. Each person needs other people to be complete.

 

[nightflight]

Who is the author of this 46 page document?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/about/

 

[ewq1938]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/about/

And you said you found this where you work? Does the author know where his document is?

 

[nightflight]

And you said you found this where you work? Does the author know where his document is?

Over at the side there is a bio of the author of the article.

 

[nightflight]

The most plausible version of this is that the soul is an emergent phenomenon of the brain. Saying it’s just material is like saying that a book is just ink and paper. In a literal sense it’s true, but saying that it’s just ink and paper misses just about everything that matters about the book.

Yes, I would agree with this. But the fact that a personality can be drastically altered through injury or disease makes it seem that ultimately a person is physical. From the article:

The hippocampus is not the only brain structure that seems to be vital for laying down new memories. It is part of a circuit in the brain involving several distinct regions, all of which seem to be equally important for that task. One such region, which connects directly to the hippocampus, is called the fornix, and Dr. Kenneth Heilman tells us of a patient named Flora Pape whose left and right fornices both had to be excised to save her from a life-threatening brain tumor. Mrs. Pape had lived in east Kentucky all of her life, until she and her husband both moved to Jacksonville, Florida, two years before her surgery. At the time of her surgery, she had two sons in their 20s, both of whom still lived in Kentucky.

'When she was discharged from the hospital, her husband drove her from Gainesville to their home in Jacksonville. After leaving Gainesville, her husband noticed that she was looking out the window and saying, “Oh, my!” He asked what was troubling her and she said, “What happened to the mountains?”
He asked, “What mountains?”
She replied, “You know, the mountains.”
He said, “There are no mountains here.”
She replied, “No mountains in Kentucky. We must be in the western part of the state. What are we doing here?”
Mr. Pape had been told by [the doctor] that the surgery might make her memory worse, but he was still surprised. “Dear, we are not in Kentucky. We are in Florida.”
She asked, “Why are we in Florida?”
He told her that they had moved to Jacksonville about 2 years earlier. She said, “Moved to Jacksonville? Why?” He told her that the company had asked him to transfer. She asked, “Where are we going now?”
“Back to Jacksonville from Gainesville. You had some surgery on your brain. It was a tumor. The doctors think they got it all out. You are having some memory problems, but the surgeons hope it will improve with time.”
Then she asked, “Who is watching the boys?”
“No one,” he replied. “They are grown and live in Kentucky.”
“What do you mean, grown? They are still teenagers.”
“No, they are not. They are in their twenties. They are coming down this weekend to see you.”
She stopped asking questions for a few minutes and looked out of the car window. Then she turned to her husband and asked, “Where are all the mountains?” (Heilman 2002, p. 151-152)'

Like H.M., Clive Wearing and Dr. Damasio’s patient, Mrs. Pape’s memory disorder seems to be permanent, and no treatment known to medical science can cure it. The question must now be asked: According to dualist beliefs, what has happened to these people? Where are their souls?

- See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/#part2

There were a plethora of examples like the above in the article; very disturbing. But reading this years ago made me not only doubt the existence of "souls", but made me question if there really is such a thing as a "person".

- See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/#part2

 

[hedrick]

Yes, I would agree with this. But the fact that a personality can be drastically altered through injury or disease makes it seem that ultimately a person is physical.

First, let me be clear that I’m by no means committed to this model. I think there are reasons to accept the usual concept of the soul.

But let’s explore this a bit more. I don’t think the idea of the person / soul as emergent means that the person is physical. Let me give an analogy. I’m in the IT area. In recent years, virtual machines have become more common. With current technology computers using the same virtual machine technology can talk to each other and move a virtual machine from one physical machine to another. There’s a clever approach for copying memory and making sure that the destination machine matches the sending machine. You can move a server to a different physical machine while it’s running, with virtually no interruption.

Given these kinds of capabilities, you can’t identify the running system with any specific hardware. It needs hardware to run, but it exists independently of any particular hardware. If physicalism is true, it does not mean that a person is the brain. It means that the person currently exists in the brain. But it’s at least potentially independent of it, and could also exist in what Paul calls a resurrection body.

 

[Chesterton]

Yes, I would agree with this. But the fact that a personality can be drastically altered through injury or disease makes it seem that ultimately a person is physical. From the article:

There were a plethora of examples like the above in the article; very disturbing. But reading this years ago made me not only doubt the existence of "souls", but made me question if there really is such a thing as a "person".

That personality can be altered by physical means simply doesn't lead to the conclusion that it is wholly physical, nor to the conclusion that there is no soul.

Simply put, you can't logically eliminate all unknown factors based on the behaviour of one known factor. This is a weak analogy, but it'd be sort of like removing the spark plug from a car, finding that it doesn't run, and concluding "the operation of the car depends wholly on the plug". Yes it certainly depends on the plug, but not wholly; there are many other things involved.

 

[Tawhano]

If a person's personality can change dramatically due to trauma or disease to the brain, is there really then such a thing as a "soul"?

How does the soul, or person that the soul represents, communicate with the physical world? It does this through the body which is controlled by the brain. Damage to the brain does not alter the soul but hampers the soul to communicate itself to the physical world and thereby seeming to change one’s personality. We observe a change in a person who has brain damage by their outward signs, in other words their physical actions. We cannot look inside them to see if the soul has been afflicted. This, of course, is just my observation and not based on any scientific studies.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I was digging around at work and found a notebook with a 46 page printout (front and back) of a series of essays I printed years ago, while doing office duty one Saturdayr. These essays purport to demonstrate that the evidence is against the notion of a "soul" that inhabits the human body/heart/mind. That in fact who we are is material, only material. The essays mainly makes their case with numerous examples of people who's personalities drastically changed due to brain illnesses or injuries. Several of the people were devout Christians and one a Jew, all who became disinterested in their former faiths.

When I read this years ago I had a feeling of vertigo, of losing my sense of self, if only momentarily.

Here are the links to the essays:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/

If a person's personality can change dramatically due to trauma or disease to the brain, is there really then such a thing as a "soul"? Or even a permanent thing we call a "person"? If a Christian has a brain injury and no longer believes in his faith, is he then damned? Who is the real person, the former or the latter?

I haven't read the responses so if I am redundant in mine I apologize in advance. Think of the brain as a physical transmitter. If something malfunctions and changes the physical aspects of it, the brain has the ability to adapt and a person's identity in the process is changed. If they no longer have the connection they once had with God..the transmitter is malfunctioning it isn't surprising that they may believe He doesn't exist. Our souls are somewhat filtered in through the workings of the brain and if that changes so does the way it is filtered. I believe that once a physical person accepts Jesus as His Savior he is saved. Period. If that person no longer has a memory of that experience in his/her physical form does not effect the spiritual side of the person who has been given to God as His child. IMHO.

 

[fatboys]

I was digging around at work and found a notebook with a 46 page printout (front and back) of a series of essays I printed years ago, while doing office duty one Saturdayr. These essays purport to demonstrate that the evidence is against the notion of a "soul" that inhabits the human body/heart/mind. That in fact who we are is material, only material. The essays mainly makes their case with numerous examples of people who's personalities drastically changed due to brain illnesses or injuries. Several of the people were devout Christians and one a Jew, all who became disinterested in their former faiths.

When I read this years ago I had a feeling of vertigo, of losing my sense of self, if only momentarily.

Here are the links to the essays:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/

If a person's personality can change dramatically due to trauma or disease to the brain, is there really then such a thing as a "soul"? Or even a permanent thing we call a "person"? If a Christian has a brain injury and no longer believes in his faith, is he then damned? Who is the real person, the former or the latter?

If your brain is damaged and the connections between the spiritual intelligence is changed then things are going to look different. The brain is setup when we are born without any abnormalities to connect spirit with the physical. Because we are mortal it is not a perfect connection. One of the reasons we are here is to discipline our physical to be submissive to the spirit we have inside us so we can become more perfect and have more control. When the brain is damaged it can no longer work properly nGod knows this and that is considered when we are judged. Of course there are events that can happen in our lives that affect the way we think. I know of people who have lost faith in God who were very devout after they have gone through a traumatic experience.

 

[AV1611VET]

If a person's personality can change dramatically due to trauma or disease to the brain, is there really then such a thing as a "soul"? Or even a permanent thing we call a "person"? If a Christian has a brain injury and no longer believes in his faith, is he then damned? Who is the real person, the former or the latter?

In those 46 pages, are there any examples of the opposite happening?

IOW, has anyone disinterested in religion become interested in religion after having had his brain damaged?

 

[fatboys]

In those 46 pages, are there any examples of the opposite happening?

IOW, has anyone disinterested in religion become interested in religion after having had his brain damaged?

Exactly

 

[radhead]

Since God is magic, then anything is possible.

 

[juvenissun]

I was digging around at work and found a notebook with a 46 page printout (front and back) of a series of essays I printed years ago, while doing office duty one Saturdayr. These essays purport to demonstrate that the evidence is against the notion of a "soul" that inhabits the human body/heart/mind. That in fact who we are is material, only material. The essays mainly makes their case with numerous examples of people who's personalities drastically changed due to brain illnesses or injuries. Several of the people were devout Christians and one a Jew, all who became disinterested in their former faiths.

When I read this years ago I had a feeling of vertigo, of losing my sense of self, if only momentarily.

Here are the links to the essays:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/

If a person's personality can change dramatically due to trauma or disease to the brain, is there really then such a thing as a "soul"? Or even a permanent thing we call a "person"? If a Christian has a brain injury and no longer believes in his faith, is he then damned? Who is the real person, the former or the latter?

This question is similar to another interested one:

In the afterlife, what would be the age of the (resurrected) forever life? If I live to my very old age, would I be a person like an old man or a young man? What is the age of my revived soul?

Similar one could be asked to a Christian with Alzheimer disease.

I believe the Bible HAS the answer to this type of question.