Brain vs Soul

[DogmaHunter]

I find the idea of a "soul" nearly impossible to believe, and that's in large part to this long article: A Ghost in the Machine

In it are many examples of personality changes that occur due to brain injury/illness. After reading it I have found it very hard to believe in something like a soul that exists separate from the body.

-From the article.

Sam Harris once put it in powerfull words. I don't remember the exact wording, nore am I able hear to look up the vid of the discussion panel where he said it - so I paraphrase

The faculties of humans like the ability to learn languages, to speak, recognise faces and your personality characteristics all seem to be regulated by the brain. And we know this because changing brain chemistry or being the victim of brain injury can alter those faculties... Damage 'this' part of the brain and some faculties are lost... damage 'that' part of the brain and yet more faculties are lost... But somehow theists want us to believe that if you die and destroy the whole thing, you'll be able speak english and recognise grandma...

Indeed, it makes no sense to assume that we are something more then our brain ("we" in the sense of our personalities and who we are as persons).

It's painfully clear that who we are is entirely matter based in the form of neurons firing in a complex network that we call the brain.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Maybe brain is the accidens, and soul is the substance.

Or (I think this was Wittgenstein's view) the mind is a Kantian "thing in itself". All we have (this is my interpretation) are representations of it.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Maybe brain is the accidens, and soul is the substance.

Or (I think this was Wittgenstein's view) the mind is a Kantian "thing in itself". All we have (this is my interpretation) are representations of it.

No... What we have is loads of evidence that what we call a mind, is a product of the physical brain. We have zero evidence of the mind existing independently of a brain.

 

[lesliedellow]

No... What we have is loads of evidence that what we call a mind, is a product of the physical brain. We have zero evidence of the mind existing independently of a brain.

Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False: Amazon.co.uk: Thomas Nagel: Books


David Chalmers on Consciousness - YouTube

 

[Smidlee]

Indeed, it makes no sense to assume that we are something more then our brain ("we" in the sense of our personalities and who we are as persons).

It's painfully clear that who we are is entirely matter based in the form of neurons firing in a complex network that we call the brain.

We do have a few example to show it's no where as clear as you want it to be. Two women who shared over 70% yet had completely different personalities and the 12 year old girl who had half of her brain remove yet had no effect on her personality and her "personal" memories. She did have to relearn some skill like speech and motor skills.
Remove half the brain = half of her motors skills are gone but not the person.

Again if a radio get damage it could produce unwanted noise but it doesn't mean the radio is the cause of the music.

 

[Davian]

Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False: Amazon.co.uk: Thomas Nagel: Books


David Chalmers on Consciousness - YouTube

"Almost Certainly False"?

At 2m20s he presents his argument: "I can't question my consciousness, I am experiencing it directly, it's more real to me than anything else."

If the self is an illusion, or a construct of the brain, of course it will seem real. He is creating a 'hard problem' that does not exist.

 

[Davian]

We do have a few example to show it's no where as clear as you want it to be. Two women who shared over 70% yet had completely different personalities and the 12 year old girl who had half of her brain remove yet had no effect on her personality and her "personal" memories. She did have to relearn some skill like speech and motor skills.
Remove half the brain = half of her motors skills are gone but not the person.

Again if a radio get damage it could produce unwanted noise but it doesn't mean the radio is the cause of the music.

What does this 'radio' analogy of yours have in explanatory power that neuroplasticity lacks?

 

[Smidlee]

"Almost Certainly False"?

At 2m20s he presents his argument: "I can't question my consciousness, I am experiencing it directly, it's more real to me than anything else."

If the self is an illusion, or a construct of the brain, of course it will seem real. He is creating a 'hard problem' that does not exist.

If self is an illusion than you can't trust anything. This sounds like hyper-skepticism.

By definition consciousness can't be an illusion since illusion requires a consciousness. (a rock doesn't have illusions.) That's like saying the illusion is having an illusion.

 

[Davian]

If self is an illusion than you can't trust anything. This sounds like hyper-skepticism.

That is why I prefer the word 'construct'.

By definition consciousness can't be an illusion since illusion requires a consciousness. (a rock doesn't have illusions.) That's like saying the illusion is having an illusion.

I am not saying that.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

No... What we have is loads of evidence that what we call a mind, is a product of the physical brain. We have zero evidence of the mind existing independently of a brain.

What I was getting at is that all we ever have is a very simplistic model based on percepts. The "brain" itself, is part of the "absolute truth" (for want of a better term). So calling the absolute a brain is correct in one sense, in that thats all the information we have. But in another sense all we have is the aspect, or the appearance in scans etc rather than the thing-in-itself. The thing in itself, well words are goint to fail. This doees not make it supernatural of course, but I htink that reducing the thing in itself to a finite model it a self deception.

 

[lesliedellow]

By definition consciousness can't be an illusion since illusion requires a consciousness. (a rock doesn't have illusions.) That's like saying the illusion is having an illusion.

You can't expect the super smart to take cognizance of something as blindingly obvious as that.

It is the sort of thing which issues forth from people's mouths, when they are determined not to let go of their philosophical presuppositions, no matter what the absurdities they lead into.

 

[KCfromNC]

We do have a few example to show it's no where as clear as you want it to be. Two women who shared over 70% yet had completely different personalities and the 12 year old girl who had half of her brain remove yet had no effect on her personality and her "personal" memories. She did have to relearn some skill like speech and motor skills.
Remove half the brain = half of her motors skills are gone but not the person.

This is at best evidence that not all of the brain is used by every single process the brain does. Remove a seat and a car still drives the same way. Doesn't mean that there's some immaterial essence of driving external to the car which it is channeling here from the spirit beyond.

Again if a radio get damage it could produce unwanted noise but it doesn't mean the radio is the cause of the music.

We can use radio waves for all sorts of things beyond playing music. Let us know when you can do the same with a disembodied consciousness.

 

[Davian]

You can't expect the super smart to take cognizance of something as blindingly obvious as that.

It is the sort of thing which issues forth from people's mouths, when they are determined not to let go of their philosophical presuppositions, no matter what the absurdities they lead into.

Absurdities, such as "gods" and "souls"?

 

[Smidlee]

This is at best evidence that not all of the brain is used by every single process the brain does. Remove a seat and a car still drives the same way. Doesn't mean that there's some immaterial essence of driving external to the car which it is channeling here from the spirit beyond.

the seat is not part of the engine which would be saying remove someone's finger and the person is the same. That's a no brainer.

We can use radio waves for all sorts of things beyond playing music. Let us know when you can do the same with a disembodied consciousness.

Music was only an example.