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[Blackwing]

Ok let's cool it down please. This thread is closely watched. If you want to disagree please disagree in a civil manner, that goes to all of you.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Continue please

 

[SSPX]

Originally posted by Wolseley

The simple answer to this, Augustine, is that Pope would not order anyone to commit a sin, and so your question is irrelevant; it's another question very much along the lines of "If God can do anything, He can make a rock so heavy He can't lift it, right?".

I think its a bit troubling that you are comparing the Pope with God. What is stopping the Pope from ordering someone to do something objectively wrong? Infallibility, as defined by Vatican I does not exclude the possibility...nor is there any other doctrine that I know of that does, unless you can fill me in.

Joe

 

[Wolseley]

I think its a bit troubling that you are comparing the Pope with God.

I didn't compare the Pope with God; I compared the rhetorical nature of the question asked with another rhetorical question of like nature.

What is stopping the Pope from ordering someone to do something objectively wrong?

What stops any Christian from ordering someone to do something objectively wrong?

Whatever your answer is, there's your answer.

Infallibility, as defined by Vatican I does not exclude the possibility...nor is there any other doctrine that I know of that does, unless you can fill me in.

Infallibility, by definition, means to be incapable of teaching error. It is not unreasonable, however, to conclude that if the Catholic Church is the one established by Christ, and if the Roman Pontiff is the successor to St. Peter as head of the Universal Church, also established by Christ, and if the Holy Spirit is involved in influencing the decisions of said Church and said Pontiff, as promised by Christ, then the Pope would not order anyone to do anything which is objectively wrong.

However, if one doesn't believe that the present Catholic Church is the one established by Christ, or that the present Pope is not the legitimate successor to Peter, or that the Holy Spirit has abandoned the Catholic Church for greener pastures, then one can probably more or less believe whatever they like. Nicht wahr?

 

[SSPX]

Originally posted by Wolseley
What stops any Christian from ordering someone to do something objectively wrong?

Whatever your answer is, there's your answer.

My answer is nothing...and yet you say:

Infallibility, by definition, means to be incapable of teaching error. It is not unreasonable, however, to conclude that if the Catholic Church is the one established by Christ, and if the Roman Pontiff is the successor to St. Peter as head of the Universal Church, also established by Christ, and if the Holy Spirit is involved in influencing the decisions of said Church and said Pontiff, as promised by Christ, then the Pope would not order anyone to do anything which is objectively wrong.

Your conclusion does not follow. He CAN order someone to do something which is objectively wrong because ifallibility applies only to doctrine, and then only in very limited circumstances. Disciplinary decisions, commands are not acts of the magesterium, and cannot be said to be infallible (or fallible for that matter). Look at it this way, when Vatican II said Latin must be retained in the Latin rites, was it infallible? Or, was Pope John Paul II infallible when he said "There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers." ?http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2INAES.HTM

Joe

 

[Wolseley]

Joe, the dogma of infallibility and what a statement has to comform to to be considered infallible is well-attested to in the relevant Catholic literature; I would cordially invite you to look it up and make the necessary comparisons with your examples to see if they fit or not.

In the meantime, good luck and Godspeed. The time comes when one recognizes a waste of time, and this is it. If you believe that Marcel LeFebvre was more influenced by the Holy Spirit than the last four Popes were, good for you. I wish you well.

As I said before, schism is schism, and outright defiance of the Holy See is never to be condoned.

 

[SSPX]

I know what the Catholic Church teaches on the matter. It teaches that Papal commands are not endowed with the charism of infallibility. Apparently you'd rather believe the opposite.

 

[Wolseley]

It's your story, brother; you tell 'er any way you want to.

Tootles,
---Wols.