Boxing

[Oneofthediaspora]

What does the panel think about the ethics of boxing?

I was watching the Ali - Frasier fight from 1/10/75 in Manilla.
Probably the best boxing match ever IMO. But incredibly brutal.

In the UK the BMA (British Medical Association) has been active in trying to make boxing illegal. Personally I don't think they should be doing this as they are meant to be a trade union for doctors, not a public health body, but that's beside the point.

What's the general consensus here?

 

[stan1980]

I have to admit, I do enjoy boxing, and boxed a little when I was younger only at my local club though, so I'm probably going to be a little biased.

I'm not as into it as I used to be when I was younger though, only really watch the big fights now.

Perhaps some will say it should be made illegal, but lets face it, it keeps a lot of kids off the streets in clubs. There is the old argument that it will be driven underground if you make it illegal, where medical attention wont be as good, doubtful if you'll have ringside doctors there.

I don't think kids are coerced into taking up boxing, it would be different if they were. So I think it is fine.

Probably have a bit more to say on it later...

Who do you think will win in the Hatton-Malignaggi fight, Oneofthediaspora? I've watched Mailignaggi, his movement is good but he isn't a hard hitter, think he might win on points if Hatton doesn't get a KO. Be an interesting clash of style though.

 

[cantata]

I think if people are aware of the risks then they should be allowed to do it. Lots of other risky sports are permitted; it's only because boxing looks like violence that people have more of a problem with it, I suppose.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

I think Hatton. Malignaggi is good, but his movement is nowhere near as good as Mayweather (who's is) and I doubt he could stop Hatton.

I boxed a bit as a kid too. I love the sport, but I can see the arguments against it.
I have applied to the British Board of Boxing Control to be the doctor in attendance at some bouts, but am awaiting their reply.
The BMA is dead against doctors doing this, which strikes me as silly because the incidence of serious injury is only going to increase in a medic is not present.

I think the whole argument boils down to consensual assault. Is it still assault or ABH etc, if the person consents?

 

[stan1980]

I think Hatton. Malignaggi is good, but his movement is nowhere near as good as Mayweather (who's is) and I doubt he could stop Hatton.

I boxed a bit as a kid too. I love the sport, but I can see the arguments against it.
I have applied to the British Board of Boxing Control to be the doctor in attendance at some bouts, but am awaiting their reply.
The BMA is dead against doctors doing this, which strikes me as silly because the incidence of serious injury is only going to increase in a medic is not present.

I think the whole argument boils down to consensual assault. Is it still assault or ABH etc, if the person consents?

Hehe, you just want free ringside tickets, don't you! If you get any spares, PM me

As far as assault goes, yes it is consensual, so I think that is enough to warrant it okay, and the referees are pretty good too now at stopping the fights when it is obvious the boxer can't continue. Did you watch the Calzaghe - Roy Jones Jr fight, just wondering if you thought the doctor should have stopped that?

It seems very silly though, that the BMA are against doctors doing this, I agree.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

Here's the thing though because I have discussed this elsewhere.

The law in this country can be a bit iffy on consensual assault. It has been tested a couple of times when it comes to consensual sado-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] sexual practices. The law has taken different views on this depending on the case (can't remeber them, but will look them up).

Any spares and I'll PM you, but don't think you'll be going to Vegas or anything because they will be mainly amateur bouts and low grade professional bouts round the North West of England I'm afraid. That's if it all works out anyway. I have to speak to my insurance company and if the premium goes up then the idea will be put on hold.

 

[sidhe]

Boxing doesn't interest me. I like good MMA fights.

Which brings up something interesting - MMA has far fewer rules, no heavily padded gloves, and is generally more violent than boxing, yet studies indicate that long-term MMA fighters suffer considerably less sustained head trauma than boxers - despite possibly getting KICKED IN THE FRAKKIN' HEAD.

The study in question determined it's because the only way to decisively win a boxing match is to punch the other guy repeatedly in the head. With a greater variety of match-ending situations, and - due to the unpadded gloves - a greater likelihood of one punch knockouts, less head trauma is experienced overall. If you're facing a guy like Demian Maia, he's not going to punch you in the head. He might break your arm or cut off blood flow to your brain, but you'll probably submit before that happens. Less head trauma.

That said, Lesnar beating Couture wasn't that surprising. Huge fists powered by almost 270lbs of athletic muscle, combined with the speed of a man 100lbs lighter, are terrifying. That Fedor lost a Sambo match over the same weekend, and lost cleanly for the first time in years...that was a shock.

 

[stan1980]

Here's the thing though because I have discussed this elsewhere.

The law in this country can be a bit iffy on consensual assault. It has been tested a couple of times when it comes to consensual sado-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] sexual practices. The law has taken different views on this depending on the case (can't remeber them, but will look them up).

I read a sick story I got emailed about some guy who became a eunuch, sounded like his boyfriend had coerced him into, but the eunuch sounded fine with it, but there just seemed something very wrong about it all. It was just the eunuch's account, not a court case or anything. Be interesting to see what would happen if something like that went to court.

Any spares and I'll PM you,

Yeaaaah!

Let me know how you get on with the BBBofC anyway.

Boxing doesn't interest me. I like good MMA fights.

Which brings up something interesting - MMA has far fewer rules, no heavily padded gloves, and is generally more violent than boxing, yet studies indicate that long-term MMA fighters suffer considerably less sustained head trauma than boxers - despite possibly getting KICKED IN THE FRAKKIN' HEAD.

The study in question determined it's because the only way to decisively win a boxing match is to punch the other guy repeatedly in the head. With a greater variety of match-ending situations, and - due to the unpadded gloves - a greater likelihood of one punch knockouts, less head trauma is experienced overall. If you're facing a guy like Demian Maia, he's not going to punch you in the head. He might break your arm or cut off blood flow to your brain, but you'll probably submit before that happens. Less head trauma.

That said, Lesnar beating Couture wasn't that surprising. Huge fists powered by almost 270lbs of athletic muscle, combined with the speed of a man 100lbs lighter, are terrifying. That Fedor lost a Sambo match over the same weekend, and lost cleanly for the first time in years...that was a shock.

Never really got into MMA. Whenever I've seen it they just seem to be grappling with each other on the floor most the time, although some of the holds and KOs do look pretty brutal.

I think it might have something to do with the size of the gloves in boxing (why there might be more head trauma), heard that somewhere, but not sure how true it is. I think the theory was, you get hit more with bigger gloves, or something.... and like you say, you probably receive less head shots in MMA.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

Stan you are one step ahead of me.
Two cases which I was told about ( I will have to get the details but not at work for pobvious reasons ) were both brought to the attention of the police by doctors who had found serious injury on examination and believed the patients' lives may be at risk from their partner and so overrode the patients' right to confidentiality.
One was a case of a married couple where the wife had a number of injuries (brandings etc) and one was a homosexual couple where one partner had very sever genital mutilation.

One case was dismissed as being a matter between the two people only and no-one else's business and one led to a conviction.

Guess which was which?

 

[sidhe]

Never really got into MMA. Whenever I've seen it they just seem to be grappling with each other on the floor most the time, although some of the holds and KOs do look pretty brutal.

I think it might have something to do with the size of the gloves in boxing (why there might be more head trauma), heard that somewhere, but not sure how true it is. I think the theory was, you get hit more with bigger gloves, or something.... and like you say, you probably receive less head shots in MMA.

The theory I've heard is that there's a smaller target area in boxing, and that the shots that get most noticed are head shots, so boxers try to hit the other guy in the head more. In MMA, unless you have ludicrous reach, a trying to hit someone in the head only opens you up for a takedown.

For me, it's the ground game that's more interesting than the stand-up. There are a few stand-up fighters that I like (Cro-Cop, Wanderlei Silva), but mostly I dig the submission technicians like Maia, Sakuraba, Fedor, and Galvao.

However, Lesnar's ground-n-pound causes me to become ill with sympathetic pains. After watching the Lesnar/Harrell bout, particularly the point where Lesnar had a side mount and drove his full 265lbs into a knee to the ribs, I think I had a bruised kidney.

 

[stan1980]

Stan you are one step ahead of me.
Two cases which I was told about ( I will have to get the details but not at work for pobvious reasons ) were both brought to the attention of the police by doctors who had found serious injury on examination and believed the patients' lives may be at risk from their partner and so overrode the patients' right to confidentiality.
One was a case of a married couple where the wife had a number of injuries (brandings etc) and one was a homosexual couple where one partner had very sever genital mutilation.

One case was dismissed as being a matter between the two people only and no-one else's business and one led to a conviction.

Guess which was which?

It's certainly a tricky area for courts, as it is hard to say what is consensual and whether the person has been coerced or manipulated into it. The eunuch I mentioned earlier did sound like he had been manipulated, and from his account he had actually been forced into being castrated, but was quite happy about it now, although I'm not sure how happy he'd be if he ended up getting dumped by his dominant partner, and realising he has no genitals left.

(I'm guessing btw, that it was the case with the married couple rather than the homosexual couple where the charges were brought)

Anyway, sorry, derailing your thread!

 

[stan1980]

The theory I've heard is that there's a smaller target area in boxing, and that the shots that get most noticed are head shots, so boxers try to hit the other guy in the head more. In MMA, unless you have ludicrous reach, a trying to hit someone in the head only opens you up for a takedown.

For me, it's the ground game that's more interesting than the stand-up. There are a few stand-up fighters that I like (Cro-Cop, Wanderlei Silva), but mostly I dig the submission technicians like Maia, Sakuraba, Fedor, and Galvao.

However, Lesnar's ground-n-pound causes me to become ill with sympathetic pains. After watching the Lesnar/Harrell bout, particularly the point where Lesnar had a side mount and drove his full 265lbs into a knee to the ribs, I think I had a bruised kidney.

I have seen some highlights on youtube and stuff, and some of it does make you almost wince in pain! You must have a thirst for blood!

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

I don't think it's de-railing particularly. It's about whether consensual assault is legal first of all and ethical secondly. I'd hate to see someone bring a successful case against boxing. But that's based solely on the fact that I love it and that's not the most rational argument for anything.
Also it does look like there are legal precedents in the area of consensual assault being seen as against the law.

BTW, no! It was the gay couple (or rather the dominant gay male) who was convicted. I don't want to draw conclusions from this without all the details but it didn't surprise me as I think some judges and juries may find gay sexuality a little more difficult to comprehend. Juries decisions may be flavoured by what they find acceptable/abhorrent. That's all guesses though. Maybe the injuries were worse.

I missed the Calzaghe fight BTW. Boohoo.

 

[sidhe]

I have seen some highlights on youtube and stuff, and some of it does make you almost wince in pain! You must have a thirst for blood!

Yes.

But think of this: Boxing is way more brutal than the average MMA fight. I haven't seen many people have their faces reduced to hamburger in MMA. They also seem a lot faster to STOP fights.

 

[keith99]

Yes.

But think of this: Boxing is way more brutal than the average MMA fight. I haven't seen many people have their faces reduced to hamburger in MMA. They also seem a lot faster to STOP fights.

I don't watch either very much. Minimal interest. But it seems MMA and other limited rules combat sports do not step in except to stop the contest. Boxing has the standing 8 count. In hindsight a promise of damage. Let a guy get almost out and stop it long enough to recover for more punishment.

If I were to make a case against boxing I'd look more to the history of betting and fixed fights. But as has already been pointed out making it illegal would just drive it underground. It would make the instances of fixed fights more common.

 

[LoisGriffin]

You reminded me that I still need to order the fight. We have just been to the shop to buy some snacks cause its going to be a late night.

I used to hate boxing and thought it was really bad but after watching a few fights I am a massive fan. I guess before I just thought that it was a bunch of men beating each other senseless but there is some great skill involved. These guys do it out of choice so I don't see the problem.

 

[sidhe]

I don't watch either very much. Minimal interest. But it seems MMA and other limited rules combat sports do not step in except to stop the contest. Boxing has the standing 8 count. In hindsight a promise of damage. Let a guy get almost out and stop it long enough to recover for more punishment.

If I were to make a case against boxing I'd look more to the history of betting and fixed fights. But as has already been pointed out making it illegal would just drive it underground. It would make the instances of fixed fights more common.

The rule of stoppage - at least in the UFC - is if someone is knocked down and shows no effort at immediately defending themselves, the fight is stopped immediately. There can be a rest period, a talk with the ref and physician, and the fight might continue...but generally not. If you get punched and go down, and don't try to block the next couple punches anyway other than with your head, no standing eight count, no arguing, you just lost.

There've been some controversies because of that, in that sometimes someone might just be stunned and able to continue, but in the interest of safety the fight was stopped when they stopped making an active effort to defend themselves. Until this past weekend, all Fedor Emalienko's losses were of that nature - controversial safety stoppage.

I've seen boxing matches where, by the last few rounds, one guy was obviously unable to offer any defense, but wasn't getting knocked down, and he just got punched more.

I honestly think that if the head is going to be a continual target, headgear should be required in professional boxing.

 

[billwald]

Boxing - the only "sport" whose objective is to cause brain damage.

 

[HighwayMan]

It's competition between consenting parties. Can't imagine what could be wrong with it.

 

[stan1980]

You reminded me that I still need to order the fight. We have just been to the shop to buy some snacks cause its going to be a late night.

Yep, 4am start, messes me up for the next few days!

I used to hate boxing and thought it was really bad but after watching a few fights I am a massive fan. I guess before I just thought that it was a bunch of men beating each other senseless but there is some great skill involved. These guys do it out of choice so I don't see the problem.

Yep you're right, I can't begin till tell you how physically hard and tiring it is to go just a couple of 3 minute rounds, never mind 12 rounds and still be able to hold even your gloves up let alone throw a punch. That and the speed, reactions, strength, movement and concentration you need, I have the utmost respect for boxers as athletes and sportsmen.

I've seen boxing matches where, by the last few rounds, one guy was obviously unable to offer any defense, but wasn't getting knocked down, and he just got punched more.

The referees are supposed to step in, in those situations, and to be fair normally do.

Boxing - the only "sport" whose objective is to cause brain damage.

That's not the objective, although very rarely it is a consequence of boxing.