Bowling for Columbine

[Baylor_SFL]

<DIV>If you haven't seen Bowling for Columbine yet, I'd definately recommend it! I went to Austin, TX with my church group a couple of weeks ago to see it &amp; it was quite an eye opener. It wasn't what I expected. I really think that it will win a lot of awards for being such a good documentary.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>~ Kristin</DIV>

 

[Susan]

Sick, vulgar, blasphemous, ultra-liberal nonsense. I would not have watched it even if I were not convicted against R rated material.

 

[Baylor_SFL]

Hey, as Christians, we're supposed to help other people & I definately think that's what he did by producing that film.

 

[Baylor_SFL]

There's nothing right about going in a school and blowing a bunch of students away. There's also definately not anything godly about someone who goes and supports the "right to bear arms" just 'because' he can when families have just lost their loved ones. That's ridiclulous.

Would Jesus carry a gun?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Baylor_SFL, I agree, it's a great "docu-film", both hilarious and sobering.

Mind you, I was a little skeptical about some stuff in it, especially the Windsor-Detroit comparison. Luckily, a buddy I saw it with lived in Windsor for 4 years while attending university there, and he pretty much said that comparison is true (although Windsor has a few murders a year, although they're not all gun murders).

And I can personally vouch for the part about Canadians not locking their doors.

 

[Baylor_SFL]

So you lived in Canada? That was shocking that they didn't lock they're doors. That's funny how he was just walking into people's homes.

The dog dressed as a hunter was a pretty funny part, too.

It was very interesting. Anyways... I didn't realize that we lived in so much fear here in America--that it was really that different. I didn't believe that Canada was any kind of "angels" land or anything (either), though.

 

[Baylor_SFL]

Oh... I just realized you are from Canada

 

[psycmajor]

Careful...

I saw it, too. My boyfriend sent me these links:

http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html
http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2002_11_24_archive.html#85712328
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2002/1209/059.html?_requestid=2372&_requestid=6287

Make of them what you will.

If you notice, one of his sidekicks for the "documentary" is Brooks Brown (not in the credits), whom I believe is about as dishonest and hypocritical as Michael Moore is. "Birds of a feather..."

Sorry to flame something you like, but it's important to investigate claims that people make.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by Baylor_SFL
So you lived in Canada? That was shocking that they didn't lock they're doors. That's funny how he was just walking into people's homes.

Well, we do lock our doors. I just don't know if we're quite as religious about it. I'll lock the door at night or if I'm not home, but if I'm home during the day, I see no reason to lock the door.

It was very interesting. Anyways... I didn't realize that we lived in so much fear here in America--that it was really that different.

One thing I found interesting about the "fear" part, was the topic of media coverage. I actually found some stats comparing Canadian and U.S. media coverage, here (1997). It's kind of interesting that "chaos" news (disasters, crime, and so forth)accounts for about 40% of U.S. news versus only 22% in Canada. Amazing what the media can do to your perception of where you live.

I didn't believe that Canada was any kind of "angels" land or anything (either), though.

Well, Canada certainly isn't perfect (I think Moore idealizes Canada a bit too much in his film). At the same time, I don't live in fear of crime and I feel safe walking around the city at night (of course, Ottawa has a pretty low crime rate). And I certainly don't feel the need to buy a gun to protect myself. I like that.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by psycmajor
Sorry to flame something you like, but it's important to investigate claims that people make.

I agree, and I'd advise anyone who watches it to take it with a grain of salt. After all, Moore's politics are pretty clear in the film, so it's not too surprising the way he puts spin on the various topics he presents.

It is a thought-provoking work, and I don't think anyone can deny that.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Susan
Sick, vulgar, blasphemous, ultra-liberal nonsense. I would not have watched it even if I were not convicted against R rated material.

You're really starting to grow on me, Sue!!

Baylor,
Like it or not, we have rights as Americans. Movies like this send the WRONG message about guns. Less than 1% of gun crimes are committed by legally armed citizens. How can we cry to oulaw something that only law abiding citizens would comply with? I just read about a crippled woman who shot her daughters boyfriend. He was trying to kill them. A couple months ago 2 men broke into a motel room in Florida. The room was occupied by a guy and his 16 year old daughter. The guy in the room had a right to carry permit and shot the intruders.....as one of them was dragging his daughter into the bathroom. What do you suppose he was going to do with her in there? Her nails?

What happened in Columbine was horrible, but who is to blame? An inanimate object? How about the parents that were clueless. How about the friends and teachers that ingored so many warning signs. Why didn't their parents know what they were doing on the computer? Do your parents monitor your computer use? Those kids were a twisted product of a generation that is more wrapped up in themselves than their kids.

When my grandfather was a kid, he and his friends would bring their rifles to school and stand them in the corner so they could go shooting on the way home. Every house had a gun and every kid was taught to respect that gun. They also didnt have TV. They also respected, obeyed and spent time with their parents. The problem is people, not guns. Don't be fooled by the liberal media. Give up your right to protect your family, but don't intrude on mine.

 

[Susan]

One more thing: I'm going to catch a lot of flames from the conservatives on this, but I do not believe the "entertainment" media was guilty for Columbine. While I am thoroughly opposed to things like "Doom," "Quake," "Halo," "CounterStrike," "Doomed Megalopolis," and other things of that order (I consider them worthless trash relying on gore and, in the case of the last, perversion rather than any artistic imagination or merit) MOST people who watch/play those do not go out and shoot up their school. I know one person who's done all of those (AND who has skill with weapons from Army training), and he's actually one of the nicest people I know ^shrug^ go figure.

I do not think we can blame guns, the media, or even solitary personalities, because blaming any of those is a serious logical fallacy (due to the fact that the great majority of people with even all 3 characteristics never would kill or injure someone.)

I believe that the cause of Columbine was what causes all other murders: hatred and anger left unchecked and unresolved, and a choice by the killers to kill rather than to deal with their problems in a nonviolent way. IOW, it was the same thing that caused Cain to kill Abel. The only difference was that it was among younger people and on a larger scale.

The thing is, we can't sue anger. We can't shame clueless parents in front of the U.S. Senate. We can't pass a law stating that no one can feel rage until they are 18 and have a valid I.D. So instead we look for something or someone other than the killers, human nature, and sin to blame.

rant over,

 

[Susan]

One final note about Cain and Abel: if environmental factors alone or even in large part are to blame for murder, then how do you explain that? There was no TV at all then, no games, no books, no written language as a matter of fact. Their parents had seen and talked to God Himself in person. There were no weapons other than maybe simple wood and stone tools, if those had even been invented yet.

Yet Cain murdered his brother.

My point is that the primary cause of murder is sinful human nature.

 

[Baylor_SFL]

Originally posted by Pete Harcoff
Well, we do lock our doors. I just don't know if we're quite as religious about it. I'll lock the door at night or if I'm not home, but if I'm home during the day, I see no reason to lock the door. One thing I found interesting about the "fear" part, was the topic of media coverage. I actually found some stats comparing Canadian and U.S. media coverage,

I thought it was really interesting because I'm definately religious about locking my door. I lock it as soon as I walk in. I'm all about safety. I also think that our media over-does the fear issue. The africanized bees was seriously over-done. He really made some points and summed up a lot of the things he covered throughout the documentary in the end with his last interview Charlton Heston.

 

[Baylor_SFL]

Originally posted by Susan
One final note about Cain and Abel: if environmental factors alone or even in large part are to blame for murder, then how do you explain that? ..... My point is that the primary cause of murder is sinful human nature.

I agree.

That's one of the points that Moore made in his documentary. He brought up many different historical events-- such as massacres in Europe, as well as other incidents like the types of things that Hitler did. Humans have a basically sinful nature-- so why do we do these things? His main point, though, was why does America have the highest amount of deaths by gun shootings (which was a whopping 11,000 +) ... way more than other countries.

~ Kristin

 

[psycmajor]

Oh, and more links:

http://www.salon.com/politics/col/spinsanity/2002/04/10/moore/index_np.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,50152,00.html

http://brian.carnell.com/articles/2002/04/000042.html

http://www.mndaily.com/daily/gopher-archives/1992/01/15/Cheating_sows_wild_flowers.txt

(This website seems
fairly hell-bent on making Moore look as bad a possible, but take a look): http://www.moorewatch.com/index.php

http://www.gentlenews.com/gphiles/old/000072.html

http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20020403.html

http://www2.ocregister.com/ocrweb/ocr/article.do?id=20211&section=COMMENTARY

Michael Moore is a liar--don't take him seriously.



Susan
Research has show that violence DOES prime aggression. Remember, Harris and Klebold weren't your everyday teenagers, and should not be generalized with the rest of us who have watched violence but did not act on violent impulses. And you are right: the primary cause of violence IS sinful human nature.

 

[cenimo]

And why do I have the feeling that the movie, (nor this thread, other than right now) will never touch the letter by the father of one of the victim;s about how he still very much supports the right to bear arms?

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When Moore had the show TV Nation he was really trying to do good, that was quite a few $$$$ ago...

He had the corporate chicken expose business shennanigans, etc...too bad it didn't last at least until Enron

but lately he's really gone off on some tangents

 

[Gunny]

I believe that Christian or non-Christian, we have the right to defend ourselves with a handgun. I do not believe God judges law abiding citizens for owning gun(s). Columbine was some serious evil taking place inside of some young people that committed this horrible act. I personally won't view the movie/documentary for I believe regardless of Michael Moore's true intent for the making of his movie he is capitalizing (making money) on a horrendous tragedy. My humble opinion only.

 

[caley]

I haven't seen it, but Michael Moore is a leftist moron who claims to be a revolutionary but just wants to make government control even more of our lives.

 

[kitkatsnarepadpen]

21st December 2002 at 12:37 AM Baylor_SFL said this in Post #15

I agree.

That's one of the points that Moore made in his documentary. He brought up many different historical events-- such as massacres in Europe, as well as other incidents like the types of things that Hitler did. Humans have a basically sinful nature-- so why do we do these things? His main point, though, was why does America have the highest amount of deaths by gun shootings (which was a whopping 11,000 +) ... way more than other countries.

~ Kristin

so are you saying that if we take away guns people will just stop killing each other? yeah that should work.

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JIMBO