Boston Explosions.

Touma said:

While I am not pointing fingers, I do think some fringe right wing group or solo nut is most plausible.

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That does seem to be the theme most of the news is going with, but the fact is, no one KNOWS yet, and anyone's guess is as good as anyone elses. But, of course, the 24 hour news cycle requires commentators to sound like they know what they're talking about.

So.... we're doomed? What can we do if we can't talk our way out of problems? I don't want to resort to violence to make the other side listen to my argument.

In Russia, if someone is annoying you, you can beat them up, but since we in the US are all bunny rabbits, we can't lay a hand on someone, or the lawyers will come in.

I Eat Pie said:

So.... we're doomed? What can we do if we can't talk our way out of problems? I don't want to resort to violence to make the other side listen to my argument.

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I think it would be a worse mistake to panic when people are exploading bombs in an effort to make us panic and over react.

In Russia, if someone is annoying you, you can beat them up, but since we in the US are all bunny rabbits, we can't lay a hand on someone, or the lawyers will come in.

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Aside from these sentences not being coherently connected thoughts.

I favor not letting the rule of law be dictated by how intimidating physical presence someone is.

Thinking about it more I have to actually agree with ninja. There hasn't been a message sent to my knowledge, which is the MO of most muslim organizations. Unless this was a homegrown cell, it could be some other domestic group.

Vylo said:

Thinking about it more I have to actually agree with ninja. There hasn't been a message sent to my knowledge, which is the MO of most muslim organizations. Unless this was a homegrown cell, it could be some other domestic group.

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Most Palestinian groups fight each other for the opportunity to claim credit for terrorist attacks. The only major group I have heard of that does NOT claim credit is Al Qaeda. They make up for this, by leaving a clear symbolic message in the attack itself.

Consider the following, posted exactly one week ago:

Abbas schedules Palestinian "civil intifada” for April 15, to peak during peace talks
DEBKAfile Special Report April 7, 2013, 3:44 PM (GMT+02:00)

"When US Secretary of State John Kerry meets Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) Monday, April 8, after flying in from Turkey, he will try and talk him out of launching what Abbas is calling in briefings to Palestinian activists a “civil intifada (uprising)” against Israel without guns. It is scheduled to April 15, on the eve of Israel’s national Day of Remembrance for its War Dead and Independence celebrations..."

-- Abbas schedules Palestinian "civil intifada” for April 15, to peak during peace talks

Any cop who doesn't follow up on a lead like that should be fired from the force. Boston is Kerry's home town.

Abbas obviously is not part of Al Qaeda, but Al Qaeda groups have been very active among Palestinians operating in Sinai and Gaza.

Outside of that, what can YOU come up with for a motive? April 15 is also Kim Il Sung's birthday; but if Kim Jong Un were responsible, he would be quick to claim credit. I think he was caught flat-footed by the event.

Who's left? Someone with a grudge against marathons? Use your noodle, and see what you come up with. I'll work with mine.

Shalom shalom

BTW It is common practice among Islamic terrorist groups operating in Israel, to use multiple detonations, seconds apart -- so that the first explosion kills some victims, and the second explosion kills first responders. That did not exactly happen here, since the two charges were about a block apart. The bomber seems to have been trying to hit as much of the crowd as possible. The news report said C-4 explosive was not used. From what I've read, terrorists favor peroxide-based explosives instead -- more unstable, but harder to detect.

The last major so-called "right wing crazy" blast was Tim McVey's revenge explosion against the office from which the Waco Massacre had been directed. He used nitrate fertilizer, I believe, which was relatively easy for a US citizen to get hold of. The fact that the devices used in Boston did not fit these descriptions, brings up the possibility that the perpetrators were foreigners -- especially those skilled in making peroxide explosives, like Al Qaeda or the Palestinians.

"Palestinians use two main types of explosive: "home-made" TATP (triacetone triperoxide) and TNT (trinitrotoluene) which is taken out of old mines and shells or brought in illegally from abroad."

-- http://www.waronline.org/en/terror/suicide.htm

We'll see, as the story unfolds...

So guess what Bland's axe is?

Blackwater Babe said:

So guess what Bland's axe is?

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Babe, am I YOUR axe? I haven't seen anyone here come up with a viable solution; and you haven't even tried. If you're just here to be a smart-ass, buzz off!

I was wondering about one item: The Palestinian suicide bombers usually pack their charges with nails and bits of metal, to get a maximum kill. I hadn't heard about any such thing in Boston until now. Here it is:

Terry Moran, ABC News: Boston bombs packed with nails, zippers and blades intended to maim, police officer says

-- Terry Moran, ABC News: Boston bombs packed with nails, zippers and blades intended to maim, police officer says : TheMatthewKeys

Uh, I commented in here they were using shrapnel hours ago. And what do you mean solution? We don't even know who the problem is yet.

Conspiracy theorists and credulous idiots, and the creeps that feed them are MY axe.

FYI ALL terrorists hoping to inflict maximum civillian casualties pack their weapons with shrapnell. Seriously, check out the specs on ANY anti-pers terrorist bombing. Muslim, Catholic, anti-abortionist, Ted Kasczinski, you name it. Jumping to any conclussions about the identity of the bomber based on the presence of shrapnel is about as reasonable as saying both Palestinians and the Boston bomber(s) have a knowledge of bomb making, therefore linked.

Vylo said:

Uh, I commented in here they were using shrapnel hours ago. And what do you mean solution? We don't even know who the problem is yet.

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Hi, bread man.

I haven't been following this particular thread in detail. Until I saw people here calling Israel a terrorist state, and news reports trying to link the bombing to "right wing crazies" (translation: Christians), I just assumed most people would eventually find that this was probably an Al Qaeda enterprise, linked to Abbas's "April 15" announcement last week; unless there waere something obvious to contraindicate this. So, I've been doing some lookups. Here's the latest I've seen:

"Even the video of the blast can help identify what kind of bomb it is—or in the case of Boston, confirm that the bombs that detonated were the same that went off. "Generally, white smoke means a commercial explosion or improvised device," he says. A common chemical used in these bombs, in the United States and abroad, is acetone peroxide (TATP). It comes in a white powder and blooms in a white cloud when it explodes. In Boston, the initial images seem to show white smoke blossoming at the moment of explosion.

"Industrial and military explosives emit black smoke, Thurman says..."

-- Bomb-Blast Forensics: The First Steps - 2013 Boston Marathon - Popular Mechanics

One article went so far as to call TATP a "signature of Al Qaeda", although I have already posted here that it is also a signature of Palestinian terrorists. With the article I cited saying that C-4 and other high explosives were ruled out, I started suspecting peroxide oxidizers such as TATP. The "white plume" mentioned here, seems to be pointing in that direction.

My guess of the moment, is that the announcement of Abbas (aka Abu Mazen) may have INSPIRED the place and timing of this attack, seeing that Abu Mazen gave plenty of lead time for any perpetrators to act, and Al Qaeda probably has many active cells in place with the necessary materials. It wouldn't have taken much advance planning to stage the attack at the Boston Marathon, since this was a well-known event which was bound to attract a great throng. Someone simply needed to show up close to the time of detonation, leave a couple of bags on the ground (perhaps asking an unwary bystander to watch them for him), then get a little out of range and signal the devices via cell phone.

Have you come up with an alternative motive Yet? Anti-sports activists? This doesn't sound like a "crazy", off to impress Jody Foster; it required a good deal of planning and pre-positioning; and TATP is an exceptionally dangerous material to work with: Many Palestinian Arabs have been killed in "work accidents" while fiddling with it.

Here's the Palestinian-Al Qaeda angle:

Al Qaeda-linked groups increasing contact with Salafi groups in Nile Delta and Sinai

By David Barnett March 6, 2013

Egyptian officials are worried that they are seizing only a fraction of the weaponry entering the Sinai Peninsula from Libya. And in contrast to earlier arms shipments, which were destined for the Gaza Strip, the final destination for many of the recent weapons shipments is the Sinai itself, where Salafi jihadists [a broad term including Al Qaeda] have a growing presence.

"Not all the weaponry flowing into Libya is going to the Gaza .... The Egyptians are becoming alarmed that weapons are now being stockpiled by Egyptian Salafi groups. They are starting to uncover arms trafficked from Libya in the [Nile] Delta and believe other weapons are being stored in Sinai. It is making them very nervous," a European diplomat recently told Voice of America..."

-- Al Qaeda-linked groups increasing contact with Salafi groups in Nile Delta and Sinai - The Long War Journal

Read more: Al Qaeda-linked groups increasing contact with Salafi groups in Nile Delta and Sinai - The Long War Journal

I recall many other articles mentioning and Al Qaeda-Hamas connection in Gaza and Sinai. The bottom line, is that they are working together and have a world-wide network.

BTW. There is another possible motive: Syria. Al Qaeda, in the form of the Al-Nusri Front, is a major player there. The date of the attack COULD be a coincidence; but I am at a loss to find a logical link is Syrian Al Qaeda is involved -- and it is an Al Qaeda signature, to leave OBVIOUS logical links (like the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, being symbols of America's economic and military power. The only obvious links I've come up with so far are Israeli Independence Day and John Kerry.).

...and the thread descends into uterly irrelevent cut'n'paste

Bland, I've always seen AQ claim these quickly if they are associated.

While I still think a middle eastern tie is the most likely, bear in mind this isn't the first time we've had domestic terrorists. We've had some very high profile right wing terrorists (McVeigh for example), and some from the left as well (the failed bridge bombers that attended an occupy rally). The poor execution and power of the bombs points to someone new or very hastily throwing bombs together, yet the plan itself seemed well organized. That seems to indicate to me a small cell or group that are not professionals. This means either a middle eastern cell that was thrown together in relative haste, or a group of amateurs from here at home. Many here will come up with grand plans but fail in the execution.

Thing is we don't know yet. We can only speculate until more details come out.

Hi, Vy

Vylo said:

Bland, I've always seen AQ claim these quickly if they are associated.

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To my understanding, they never claimed 9/11, nor the previous attempt on the WTC. You might very well know something I don't, though. In attacks on Israelis, the various Palestinian groups generally vie for the "honor" of guilt; and many times they are proved bogus. Al Qaeda isn't like them, though: The Pals try as much as possible to portray themselves as a local "liberation" group, whereas Al Qaeda is trying to portray itself as the voice of Islam worldwide -- it enhances their image.

Vylo said:

While I still think a middle eastern tie is the most likely, bear in mind this isn't the first time we've had domestic terrorists. We've had some very high profile right wing terrorists (McVeigh for example)

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Not a good example. McVeigh was incensed over a single issue: The injustice of the audacious slaughter of women and children by federal agents at Waco -- agents directed from the Oklahoma City office. He did not have any larger agenda, so far as I know; and I read here and there that even he had somehow linked up with foreign contacts with M.E. connections.

Vylo said:

and some from the left as well (the failed bridge bombers that attended an occupy rally).

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I never read about that one. The word "failed" might indicate lack of coordination with a larger group.

Vylo said:

The poor execution and power of the bombs points to someone new or very hastily throwing bombs together, yet the plan itself seemed well organized. That seems to indicate to me a small cell or group that are not professionals. This means either a middle eastern cell that was thrown together in relative haste, or a group of amateurs from here at home. Many here will come up with grand plans but fail in the execution.

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I haven't seen many details on the nature of the bombs yet. Al Qaeda is not an organization like U.N.C.L.E. or CHAOS. They are connected by deeply-held Salafist convictions, more than anything else. In some cases (Don't ask for citations, because I can't remember them), they simply funded and otherwise helped sympathetic groups. The case of the "shoe bomber" comes to mind:

"Born to a father who was a career criminal, Reid converted to Islam as a young man in prison after years as a petty criminal. Later he became radicalized and went to Pakistan and Afghanistan, where he trained and became a member of al-Qaeda...

"He spent 1999 and 2000 in Pakistan and trained at a terrorist camp in Afghanistan, according to several informants...

"Reid and Saajid Badat, another British man preparing as a terrorist, returned to Pakistan in November 2001, and reportedly travelled overland to Afghanistan. They were given "shoe bombs", casual footwear adapted to be covertly smuggled onto aircraft before being used to destroy them. Later forensic analysis of both bombs showed that they contained the same plastic explosive and that the respective lengths of detonator cord had come from the same batch: the cut mark on Badat's cord exactly matches that on Reid's..."

-- Richard Reid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That article describes Reid as a "member" of Al Qaeda; but his only connections with them were: (1) attendance at a training camp, (2) indoctrination, and (3) a pair of shoes and a mission. It is doubtful that he knew any of the "heavies" in the organization, or that he took part in any strategic planning meetings. He was a poorly-trained, highly expendible patsy on a long-shot mission.

The bomber cell in Boston (I assume more than one were involved) may not have been any more "connected" than Riuchard Reid; and they were very successful in their mission -- especially if their mission had the message I suspect it had. Try this out for size:

1. Last month, Obama made a visit to Israel (and side trips to Ramallah and Amman, which, in Al Qaeda eyes, are the same as Israel), and cozied up to "the enemy". Message of this blast? DON'T GET COZY WITH THEM. The April 15 date, Israeli Independence Day, would be enough to get that message across.

2. John Kerry is Obama's point man in re-starting the "Middle East Peace Process". The probable message? DON'T GET TOO SERIOUS ABOUT "PEACE". WE KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE.

Vylo said:

Thing is we don't know yet. We can only speculate until more details come out.

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Police work is all about speculation. It's up to the courts, to decide the facts.

Thanks for the serious conversation.

Shalom shalom

BlandOatmeal said:

They are connected by deeply-held Salafist convictions, more than anything else.

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Just what are those deeply held convictions? That they are going to bomb their fellow muslims when they are involved in international events in international communities? Is their conviction that they should commit crimes against humanity? Because that is what they accomplished. If they wanted to target America, then I would say they failed to accomplish that. A muslim actually won that race. The main winners of the race were from Obama home country of Kanyan. This is where his father and brother are from. If they wanted to target Obama they got pretty close to home on that one. Bomb the city he want to school in. Target his fellow muslims and fellow Kenyan citizens.

Just an observation...

Have a look at these photos:

(warning, graphic)

LiveLeak.com - Boston Marathon very graphic pictures

Now, look closely at the 4th photo down from the top, the one showing the woman in red on the right with two standing people in yellow tops to her left. (it's the one right before the photo showing a guy being wheeled off in a wheelchair)

Now notice the guy in the background, the one who lost his leg(s)

Compare to other photos. See anything strange?

The people to the left,right and in back of him are all gone, and he looks further away from the woman in red than in the other photos.

I guess the other people around him in the other photos needed more medical attention than him? For losing a leg and having a bone stick out, there doesn't seem to be nearly enough blood either.

And he looks much farther away from the woman in red than in the other photos.

Call these observations "paranoid delusions", I'm just using logic here. Something's off.

*head desk head desk head desk*

Joshua0 said:

Just what are those deeply held convictions? That they are going to bomb their fellow muslims when they are involved in international events in international communities? Is their conviction that they should commit crimes against humanity? Because that is what they accomplished. If they wanted to target America, then I would say they failed to accomplish that. A muslim actually won that race. The main winners of the race were from Obama home country of Kanyan. This is where his father and brother are from. If they wanted to target Obama they got pretty close to home on that one. Bomb the city he want to school in. Target his fellow muslims and fellow Kenyan citizens.

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Some extreme Islamists have reached the seemingly indefensible conclusion that anyone who does not fully buy into their struggle is an unbeliever, and a worthy target.

This group includes the vast majority of the world's Muslims, who these Islamists are quite prepared to target. This is partly why 90% of victims of terror, worldwide, are Muslim.

As for Obama's "fellow Kenyans" (hurr hurr) - 85% of whom are actually Christians - they are relentlessly targeted by Al Shabaab .

Blackwater Babe said:

*head desk head desk head desk*

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At least this one is outside my field of expertise entirely. I got tired of trying to explain to people how jet fuel works.....while 5 feet from a jet engine I'm running.

Calvinator said:

Just an observation...

Have a look at these photos:

(warning, graphic)

LiveLeak.com - Boston Marathon very graphic pictures

Now, look closely at the 4th photo down from the top, the one showing the woman in red on the right with two standing people in yellow tops to her left. (it's the one right before the photo showing a guy being wheeled off in a wheelchair)

Now notice the guy in the background, the one who lost his leg(s)

Compare to other photos. See anything strange?

The people to the left,right and in back of him are all gone, and he looks further away from the woman in red than in the other photos.

I guess the other people around him in the other photos needed more medical attention than him? For losing a leg and having a bone stick out, there doesn't seem to be nearly enough blood either.

And he looks much farther away from the woman in red than in the other photos.

Call these observations "paranoid delusions", I'm just using logic here. Something's off.

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I don't know exactly what you're getting at, Joshua. The man with the leg bone sticking out had a tourniquet above the knee. That staunched the bleeding; and once it was in place, he could be passed by for others in more desperate condition.

The scene looks like something out of Israel -- the man with the tourniquetted leg even looks Jewish.

With as many leg injuries as have been reported, I suspect that the bombs were simply left in bags on the ground. The injuries would be caused by the makeshift shrapnel on the bombs. Because legs leave a lot of room between standing people, there was a considerable path for the shrapnel near the ground. Shrapnel that went upward, however, would caused fatal injuries but would also be blocked by large torsos from hitting many people. The result: many leg injuries, but few fatalities.