Born Sinners

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I understand saying we are not born sinners yet I do not understand saying we are not born with a fallen nature. What does Christ accomplish in his incarnation in the Messianic world view? In Christianity Christ accomplishes more than simply paying for the sins we have committed but the renewal of the whole human nature. By taking on our weak and frail existence he lives the life we cannot, pays the price we cannot, yet has the same nature as we all have and has become the benchmark of our salvation.

If we do not have a fallen nature, that is a nature which is corrupted, how does the Messianic explain death, our proclivity towards doing evil and Christ's work? Genuinely curious.

 

[visionary]

We have a nature that can or has fallen and thus becomes corrupt. Weakened state leads us to falling into more temptation. Yeshua is our redeemer, thus giving us the opportunity to live a life as Yeshua admonished us to "Go and sin no more". Death comes to us all, and it is the opposite of life. It is "sleep" as Yeshua explained regarding the death of Lazarus. Our final redemption comes with the resurrection, second coming, with mortality putting on immortality. The Feasts outline the plan of salvation. We are awaiting the fulfillment of the fall feasts, as the spring feasts were fulfilled with His first coming.

 

[BukiRob]

So you think a virgin birth gives a leg up on the rest of us ordinary born.

Yepper! That's what I am saying

 

[visionary]

Yepper! That's what I am saying

how?

 

[BukiRob]

We have a nature that can or has fallen and thus becomes corrupt. Weakened state leads us to falling into more temptation. Yeshua is our redeemer, thus giving us the opportunity to live a life as Yeshua admonished us to "Go and sin no more". Death comes to us all, and it is the opposite of life. It is "sleep" as Yeshua explained regarding the death of Lazarus. Our final redemption comes with the resurrection, second coming, with mortality putting on immortality. The Feasts outline the plan of salvation. We are awaiting the fulfillment of the fall feasts, as the spring feasts were fulfilled with His first coming.

For ALL have sinned..... Those of us who were born by the seed of a man we all have a fallen nature. There is not a single human born of the will of the flesh who is NOT born fallen

 

[visionary]

For ALL have sinned..... Those of us who were born by the seed of a man we all have a fallen nature. There is not a single human born of the will of the flesh who is NOT born fallen

A fallen nature doesn't have to fall. It is like saying we have no resistance to sin

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If someone fallen resists sin, turns to God, does what is right, he is rewarded, right ? (like God told Cain, perhaps)

If someone fallen does not resist sin, what then ? (no hope!?)

 

[visionary]

If someone fallen resists sin, turns to God, does what is right, he is rewarded, right ? (like God told Cain, perhaps)

If someone fallen does not resist sin, what then ? (no hope!?)

Rewards take many forms, like a closer walk with Him, like wisdom, strength to walk in uprightness, sense of self worth, avoidance of the consequences of if he didn't resist said sin.. etc. If someone does not resist sin, they are spiritual weakened, conscience seared on this point, rebellious pride and self defense occurs, etc. all which make it harder to repent, return, and be transformed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

A fallen nature doesn't have to fall. It is like saying we have no resistance to sin

RIGHT! The natural man , born of the flesh, hasn't got a chance - everything is sinful ! OR is it ? How are the pagan gentiles in Romans "justified" by obeying TORAH from their conscience ? Big unanswered paradox ?

 

[visionary]

RIGHT! The natural man , born of the flesh, hasn't got a chance - everything is sinful ! OR is it ? How are the pagan gentiles in Romans "justified" by obeying TORAH from their conscience ? Big unanswered paradox ?

Paul talked about the obedience by nature...
Romans 2:14
for when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature that which is of the law, these, not having the law, are a law unto themselves;

 

[danny ski]

Not necessarily true. Your reasoning is explicitly why the virgin birth is so important.

Virgin birth or not, the author of the Psalm does not say he was born with sin.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The Creator who is responsible for all TORAH/ and SCRIPTURE/ said everyone - all
mankind- was consigned under sin,
so that all could be saved by grace.
I didn't ever question this, as it is truth,
and also didn't ever think Messianic Judaism
nor Orthodox Judaism (at the time of Jesus on earth)
disputed this.

 

[visionary]

The Creator who is responsible for all TORAH/ and SCRIPTURE/ said everyone - all
mankind- was consigned under sin,
so that all could be saved by grace.
I didn't ever question this, as it is truth,
and also didn't ever think Messianic Judaism
nor Orthodox Judaism (at the time of Jesus on earth)
disputed this.

That is not the dispute here either. consigned under sin and born sinner are two different things.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That is not the dispute here either. consigned under sin and born sinner are two different things.

Is the result the same ?
If not, how is it different ?

Either way, in other words, everyone needs to be Redeemed from sin by the BLOOD of the LAMB, right? Repentance, turning to God, etc or they remain as always dead in sin and trespasses as Jesus and the Apostles said frequently.

 

[visionary]

Is the result the same ?
If not, how is it different ?

Either way, in other words, everyone needs to be Redeemed from sin by the BLOOD of the LAMB, right? Repentance, turning to God, etc or they remain as always dead in sin and trespasses as Jesus and the Apostles said frequently.

Consigned.. attributed... born...DNA make-up

 

[Meowzltov]

vis: do you believe there are those who keep the law perfectly and therefore do not need the blood of Jesus? Is this what you've been piecing together with your two ideas (no sinful nature + ability to keep all the laws) ?

 

[visionary]

vis: do you believe there are those who keep the law perfectly and therefore do not need the blood of Jesus? Is this what you've been piecing together with your two ideas (no sinful nature + ability to keep all the laws) ?

No.. actually I am after the concept that seems be so tied to "we are sinners" like it is our forever state and that even after accepting Yeshua's offer, it doesn't transform us, because.. here comes the excuses " we are sinners" and the "blood of Yeshua covers us" like it gives us license to keep doing what we are doing.

 

[Meowzltov]

No.. actually I am after the concept that seems be so tied to "we are sinners" like it is our forever state and that even after accepting Yeshua's offer, it doesn't transform us, because.. here comes the excuses " we are sinners" and the "blood of Yeshua covers us" like it gives us license to keep doing what we are doing.

Well I'm totally with you when it comes to being frustrated with those who use "sinful nature" as an excuse to sin. Paul was very clear Romans 6:1-2 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" By no longer living in it, I believe that Paul means we now fight against our sinful nature, rather than use it as an excuse.

 

[BukiRob]

A fallen nature doesn't have to fall. It is like saying we have no resistance to sin

It is utterly, completely, totally IMPOSSiBLE for the natural mind to not sin.

 

[visionary]

It is utterly, completely, totally IMPOSSiBLE for the natural mind to not sin.

Then how can the patriarchs do it? How can God required it of us? How can there be in the end, holy, righteous people?