Born Sinners

[visionary]

Yes.

In all things tempted as we are.....

 

[BukiRob]

As for MJ, we don't believe that babies are "born sinners" or that they are born with a "sinful nature".

We believe that babies are born innocent, not righteous or unrighteous. We believe that every man has free will and chooses to sin.

We believe that man has chosen to corrupt himself and to go astray. Man is never forced to sin, but chooses to sin out of his own free will and that is why he will be held accountable for his sin. However, every man will sin at some point in time.

We call this "universal rebellion". Yet, this "universal rebellion" has nothing to do with they way they are born. We live in a sinful world where every man has been tempted to sin and every man has chosen to give into temptation.

People are not held morally responsible for the "sinful" things they do until they come to the point where they understand good and evil. This is called the "age" or the "state of accountability". It is only when people come to this "state of accountability" that they are held accountable by God for their moral choices. This is why the Bible says that people are sinners from their "youth" and not from "birth".

People are only accountable for their own moral choices. As a person chooses to sin and reject the light of nature, their conscience, the law of God written upon their hearts and the message of the Bible, they become more and more depraved. This results in them developing a "sinful nature" and becoming enslaved to sin.

If someone dies before reaching the "state of accountability" (ie. a baby, a child or mentally handicapped person), they will be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven

What say ye?

Genesis 6:12, Exodus 32:7, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Luke 6:45, Romans 3:23, Matthew 18:3, Matthew 19:13-15, Genesis 8:21, Deuteronomy 1:39, Romans 9:11, John 9:39-41, James 4:17

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” PS 51:5

WE also know Yeshua LOVED children. We also know, G-d is merciful.

 

[danny ski]

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” PS 51:5

WE also know Yeshua LOVED children. We also know, G-d is merciful.

Bad translation.

 

[Meowzltov]

My point is Yeshua expectation.. and He never expects the impossible or gives us an impossible command.

The Torah has built into it the things to do for when we fail. Why would those things be written into the Law if God didn't know we would fail?

 

[Meowzltov]

In all things tempted as we are.....

Being born without a sinful nature doesn't mean he couldn't be tempted. After all, Adam and Eve were originally without a sinful nature, and yet were tempted to eat of the fruit.

 

[visionary]

Being born without a sinful nature doesn't mean he couldn't be tempted. After all, Adam and Eve were originally without a sinful nature, and yet were tempted to eat of the fruit.

exactly... sinful nature or not sinful nature, we can resist the temptation.

 

[Meowzltov]

exactly... sinful nature or not sinful nature, we can resist the temptation.

I agree with you there, especially if we rely on grace. But our sinful nature makes us *inclined* to give in. You can wash a pig until he's squeaky clean, but he's just going to go back to wallow in the mud.

 

[Dave-W]

"born sinners"

I have yet to meet a sinner that had not been born.

 

[Dave-W]

As for MJ, we don't believe that babies are "born sinners" or that they are born with a "sinful nature".

Trying to say that is like trying to say that we only serve Vanilla in a Baskin Robbins Ice Cream shop.

There are MJs with every shade of belief on this subject.

 

[visionary]

The term “original sin” or sinful nature aka born sinners is unknown to the Jewish Scriptures. This "original sin" theology goes on to say as a consequence of this first iniquity, man is hopelessly lost in a state of sin in which he has been held captive since this fall. As a result, he is powerless to follow the path of obedience and righteousness by his own free will. The doctrine of "original sin' teaches that “all human beings are born with an innate tendency to disobey God.” It teach that the entire human race is born with an evil inclination. Under this concept, man is not inclined toward sin but more accurately is a slave to sin.

The doctrine of "original sin" is profoundly hostile to the central teachings of the Jewish Scriptures. The Torah loudly condemns the alien teaching that man is unable to freely choose good over evil, life over death. This is not a hidden or ambiguous message in the Jewish Scriptures. On the contrary, it is proclaimed in Moses’ famed teachings to the children of Israel.

Deut 30:10 If you will hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law; if you turn unto the Lord thy God with all your heart and with all your soul; for this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you neither is it too far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, “Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us hear it, that we may do it?” Neither is it beyond the sea that you should say: “Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it that we may do it?” The word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

 

[Shimshon]

In Judaism we understand the concept as yetzer hara, the evil inclination. It is expressed in Genesis 8:21 and Genesis 6:5. Christianity expressed this Jewish concept as original sin. The expressions should not be conflated or opposed to each other. They both stand on the same scriptures.

Gen 6:5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Gen 8:21The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.

 

[visionary]

God turns to Cain and warns him,

Gen 4:6 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? If, though, you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you shall master over it.

 

[visionary]

Throughout the Hebrew Bible the Almighty unambiguously declares that the children of Israel are to draw near to Him with intense love and faithfully keep His commandments. This is the desire of the Creator. Moses beseeches the children of Israel,

Duet 30:16 I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees, and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

 

[visionary]

Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation, remained intensely loyal to God’s commandments and, as a result, the Torah regards our first patriarch as the paradigm of faithfulness.

Gen 26:4 I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands, and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

God did not give us desires that we cannot govern or commandments that we could not keep.

 

[visionary]

I think we have been looking on the wrong side of the coin too long. Why would God command His people to observe a Torah that He knew we could not keep it, promise us that we can full it, and then punish us for not being obedient to commandments that we couldn’t keep in the first place? Does make sense, and that is why this concept of being born a sinner, is a defeatist way of looking at God's plan for us. I do not believe Yeshua was given any "body advantage" over sin.

 

[visionary]

Should we even identify ourselves as sinners? much less born sinners. In Jewish terms, sin is not a person which original sin is trying to make us out to be; it’s an event, and that event happened, happens, and may happen again. Our life is to look forward to the future, a better future, one without sin. If we believe in our sinful nature, how can we possibly believe in a sinless life?

 

[BukiRob]

Bad translation.

The literal is Behold in iniquity I was shaped and in sin convince did my mother

 

[danny ski]

The literal is Behold in iniquity I was shaped and in sin convince did my mother

What the author says is that he was born into a sinful environment and not that he was born sinful as that requires action-Isaiah 7 15-16, Ezekiel 18 20, Jeremiah 3 25, Genesis 8 21. If man was born a sinner, Christians could not claim that Jesus was without sin, btw, as he would've been already born a sinner. Therefore, sinful at birth, is a bad translation, contrary to what the Torah and the Prophets teach.

 

[BukiRob]

What the author says is that he was born into a sinful environment and not that he was born sinful as that requires action-Isaiah 7 15-16, Ezekiel 18 20, Jeremiah 3 25, Genesis 8 21. If man was born a sinner, Christians could not claim that Jesus was without sin, btw, as he would've been already born a sinner. Therefore, sinful at birth, is a bad translation, contrary to what the Torah and the Prophets teach.

Not necessarily true. Your reasoning is explicitly why the virgin birth is so important.

 

[visionary]

Not necessarily true. Your reasoning is explicitly why the virgin birth is so important.

So you think a virgin birth gives a leg up on the rest of us ordinary born.