Born Sinners

[visionary]

So please clarify for me: if a Christian (or whatever you wish to call them) swipes a pen for the office, are they a Christian?

I personally think that after we are forgiven and righteous IN GOD"S EYES, that God begins the process of sanctification, meaning that he will make us TRULY holy inside, a transformation in reality (not mere appearences). This continues throughout our Christian walk. So no, we are NOT yet holy or righteous in reality, but only in appearence to God. This is why we stumble and sin.

"but only in appearance to God".. you got to be kidding me. Never will sin be or ever be holy or righteous in the eyes of God, not matter what .....

There will be a body of believers who, forgiven, sanctified, cleansed of all unrighteousness, will walk this earth, as proof that it can be done. The biggest argument Satan puts forth is that it can not be done. Yeshua said, "Go and sin no more" because He believes it can be done. We, as a body of believers need to believe and live it with His help, proving He is right.

 

[Honoluluwindow]

"but only in appearance to God".. you got to be kidding me. Never will sin be or ever be holy or righteous in the eyes of God, not matter what .....

There will be a body of believers who, forgiven, sanctified, cleansed of all unrighteousness, will walk this earth, as proof that it can be done. The biggest argument Satan puts forth is that it can not be done. Yeshua said, "Go and sin no more" because He believes it can be done. We, as a body of believers need to believe and live it with His help, proving He is right.

All glory honor praise to you bud

 

[Meowzltov]

whatever is not of faith is sin...

Oh there's lots of things that are neutral. Like chopping lettuce for a dinner salad.

 

[Meowzltov]

"but only in appearance to God".. you got to be kidding me. Never will sin be or ever be holy or righteous in the eyes of God, not matter what .....

Hey vis!!!! This is MAJOR doctrinal issue that we agree on! Hurray!!!

 

[Meowzltov]

unrighteousness, will walk this earth, as proof that it can be done. The biggest argument Satan puts forth is that it can not be done. Yeshua said, "Go and sin no more" because He believes it can be done. We, as a body of believers need to believe and live it with His help, proving He is right.

I can't agree. As CS Lewis said, we DON"T always do our best, and we DON'T always love our neighbor as ourselves.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yeshua came to save man from sin, not save them in their sin. If sin remains, then they are not yet "holy" nor "righteous".

But isn't Yeshua our "covering"? When the Father looks at us and we accept His son's sacrifice for us, He does not see our sin but His Son Yeshua. Vis, you should read up on the Eastern Orthodox doctrines on this, you may find them more agreeable than others.

 

[visionary]

But isn't Yeshua our "covering"? When the Father looks at us and we accept His son's sacrifice for us, He does not see our sin but His Son Yeshua. Vis, you should read up on the Eastern Orthodox doctrines on this, you may find them more agreeable than others.

except for one little fact, I would agree with this... Yeshua's covering would never cover sin.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

except for one little fact, I would agree with this... Yeshua's covering would never cover sin.

What about:
1 John 1:7
1 John 4:10
Hebrews 2:17
Ephesians 1:7
Ephesians 2:13
Hebrews 8:12

 

[visionary]

I can't agree. As CS Lewis said, we DON"T always do our best, and we DON'T always love our neighbor as ourselves.

And we are not there yet.. then.. Because God's ultimate goal is to have a people "perfect" in Him.. which is to say "forever in His right living" mode via Holy Spirit. It will happen for those who will be alive and remain unto His coming.

 

[rick357]

salvation takes us out and away from danger...forgiveness defers punishment....mercy is separation...grace is YHWH's life becoming our own...if we use these words interchangeably we confuse ourselves...in our redemption all of these things are present and active at one time

 

[visionary]

salvation takes us out and away from danger...forgiveness defers punishment....mercy is separation...grace is YHWH's life becoming our own...if we use these words interchangeably we confuse ourselves...in our redemption all of these things are present and active at one time

Now if more people would understand your definition of Grace... it wouldn't be abused as it is.

 

[ToBeLoved]

especially ... Then why would Yeshua say "Go and sin no more" if it was impossible. I have no disagreement with where you are going with this. .. except the path that you have chosen to support. It is the two wolves feeding choice here and before you know there were two, you are already have been feeding the wrong one. If that was true, then how can someone do what is right before knowing what is right or wrong? All in good conscience or as Paul put it.
Romans 2:14
for when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature that which is of the law, these, not having the law, are a law unto themselves;

What do you expect Him to say? Go and sin some more?

He was perfect, He can't lead anyone to sin.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What say ye?

Most of these claims , and that it is how MJs believe,
seem contrary to the MJs I know in person, and
much askew from Scripture .
Without going into this in this thread about Scripture,
is there an MJ official statement of faith anywhere
that states any or all of these things below ? :
(1)

As for MJ, we don't believe that babies are "born sinners" or that they are born with a "sinful nature".

(2)

We believe that babies are born innocent, not righteous or unrighteous.

We believe that every man has free will and chooses to sin.

(3)

We call this "universal rebellion".

(4)

People are not held morally responsible for the "sinful" things they do until they come to the point where they understand good and evil.

(5)

This is why the Bible says that people are sinners from their "youth" and not from "birth".

(6)

People are only accountable for their own moral choices.

(7)

If someone dies before reaching the "state of accountability" (ie. a baby, a child or mentally handicapped person), they will be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven

 

[visionary]

Most of these claims , and that it is how MJs believe,
seem contrary to the MJs I know in person, and
much askew from Scripture .
Without going into this in this thread about Scripture,
is there an MJ official statement of faith anywhere
that states any or all of these things below ? :
(1)

(2)



(3)

(4)

(5)

(6)

(7)

Ask yourself in what nature did Yeshua be born, as a sinner or with a sinful nature?

 

[visionary]

born sinner?

http://www.genesisobservatory.us/ohev/Documents/Papers/Outline Explaining Messianic Judaism.pdf

 

[Meowzltov]

Ask yourself in what nature did Yeshua be born, as a sinner or with a sinful nature?

We all know that Yeshua was an exception to the rule. He was the second Adam, both beginning without stain of sinful nature.

 

[visionary]

We all know that Yeshua was an exception to the rule. He was the second Adam, both beginning without stain of sinful nature.

Then you are saying He was born with an advantage.

 

[rick357]

Yeshua was born as Adam was created a man who was made a living soul by the shared Spirit of our Father but where Adam was tempted and sinned Yeshua was tempted but without sin...one was born into a perfect world of the Fathers creation, the other into a world ruled by sin and separate from YHWH...so in truth Yeshua had to overcome every lie that had come to define life...so He was definitely at a disadvantage

 

[Meowzltov]

Then you are saying He was born with an advantage.

Yes.

 

[visionary]

What do you expect Him to say? Go and sin some more?

He was perfect, He can't lead anyone to sin.

My point is Yeshua expectation.. and He never expects the impossible or gives us an impossible command.