Born Sinners

[visionary]

As for MJ, we don't believe that babies are "born sinners" or that they are born with a "sinful nature".

We believe that babies are born innocent, not righteous or unrighteous. We believe that every man has free will and chooses to sin.

We believe that man has chosen to corrupt himself and to go astray. Man is never forced to sin, but chooses to sin out of his own free will and that is why he will be held accountable for his sin. However, every man will sin at some point in time.

We call this "universal rebellion". Yet, this "universal rebellion" has nothing to do with they way they are born. We live in a sinful world where every man has been tempted to sin and every man has chosen to give into temptation.

People are not held morally responsible for the "sinful" things they do until they come to the point where they understand good and evil. This is called the "age" or the "state of accountability". It is only when people come to this "state of accountability" that they are held accountable by God for their moral choices. This is why the Bible says that people are sinners from their "youth" and not from "birth".

People are only accountable for their own moral choices. As a person chooses to sin and reject the light of nature, their conscience, the law of God written upon their hearts and the message of the Bible, they become more and more depraved. This results in them developing a "sinful nature" and becoming enslaved to sin.

If someone dies before reaching the "state of accountability" (ie. a baby, a child or mentally handicapped person), they will be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven

What say ye?

Genesis 6:12, Exodus 32:7, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Luke 6:45, Romans 3:23, Matthew 18:3, Matthew 19:13-15, Genesis 8:21, Deuteronomy 1:39, Romans 9:11, John 9:39-41, James 4:17

 

[Na Nach Oi!]

As for MJ, we don't believe that babies are "born sinners" or that they are born with a "sinful nature".

We believe that babies are born innocent, not righteous or unrighteous. We believe that every man has free will and chooses to sin.

We believe that man has chosen to corrupt himself and to go astray. Man is never forced to sin, but chooses to sin out of his own free will and that is why he will be held accountable for his sin. However, every man will sin at some point in time.

We call this "universal rebellion". Yet, this "universal rebellion" has nothing to do with they way they are born. We live in a sinful world where every man has been tempted to sin and every man has chosen to give into temptation.

People are not held morally responsible for the "sinful" things they do until they come to the point where they understand good and evil. This is called the "age" or the "state of accountability". It is only when people come to this "state of accountability" that they are held accountable by God for their moral choices. This is why the Bible says that people are sinners from their "youth" and not from "birth".

People are only accountable for their own moral choices. As a person chooses to sin and reject the light of nature, their conscience, the law of God written upon their hearts and the message of the Bible, they become more and more depraved. This results in them developing a "sinful nature" and becoming enslaved to sin.

If someone dies before reaching the "state of accountability" (ie. a baby, a child or mentally handicapped person), they will be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven

What say ye?

Genesis 6:12, Exodus 32:7, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Luke 6:45, Romans 3:23, Matthew 18:3, Matthew 19:13-15, Genesis 8:21, Deuteronomy 1:39, Romans 9:11, John 9:39-41, James 4:17

Babies are sinning too.... unconsciously....

(Vulgar words ahead! Reader's discretion advised.)
6 Shockingly Evil Things Babies Are Capable Of

 

[visionary]

Babies are sinning too.... unconsciously....

(Vulgar words ahead! Reader's discretion advised.)
6 Shockingly Evil Things Babies Are Capable Of

lol.. now who put that thought into their heads?

 

[-57]

As for MJ, we don't believe that babies are "born sinners" or that they are born with a "sinful nature".

The bible teaches that the wages of sin is death...and Adams sin brought death into this world.
If babies are are not born sinners or not born with a sin nature....why do they sometimes die?

We believe that babies are born innocent, not righteous or unrighteous. We believe that every man has free will and chooses to sin.

Is that a belief or can it be supported by doctrine? (concerning the statement about babies)

We believe that man has chosen to corrupt himself and to go astray. Man is never forced to sin, but chooses to sin out of his own free will and that is why he will be held accountable for his sin. However, every man will sin at some point in time.

Yes man chooses to sin or not....but we sin because we're sinners. Have a sin nature passed down from Adam. Dogs bark because they have a "bark" nature. They're dogs.

We call this "universal rebellion". Yet, this "universal rebellion" has nothing to do with they way they are born. We live in a sinful world where every man has been tempted to sin and every man has chosen to give into temptation.

Why did david say the following in Psalm 51:5 ....Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

People are not held morally responsible for the "sinful" things they do until they come to the point where they understand good and evil. This is called the "age" or the "state of accountability". It is only when people come to this "state of accountability" that they are held accountable by God for their moral choices. This is why the Bible says that people are sinners from their "youth" and not from "birth".

People are only accountable for their own moral choices. As a person chooses to sin and reject the light of nature, their conscience, the law of God written upon their hearts and the message of the Bible, they become more and more depraved. This results in them developing a "sinful nature" and becoming enslaved to sin.

I believe one can become more and more enslaved to sin....but we don't develope a sin nature

The sin nature is that principle in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing....read more about the sin nature from Got Questions.

If someone dies before reaching the "state of accountability" (ie. a baby, a child or mentally handicapped person), they will be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven

I think it would depend if they were chosen by God before t he foundations of the earth...elect.

 

[visionary]

The bible teaches that the wages of sin is death...and Adams sin brought death into this world.
If babies are are not born sinners or not born with a sin nature....why do they sometimes die?

We all live in a sinful world, and innocent die, not because of quilt, but because of wrong place right time.

Is that a belief or can it be supported by doctrine? (concerning the statement about babies)

MJ has not reached "doctrine state" as it is still a gathering of believers.

Yes man chooses to sin or not....but we sin because we're sinners. Have a sin nature passed down from Adam. Dogs bark because they have a "bark" nature. They're dogs.

Free Will comes into play here, which is a God given gift for man to choose whom he will serve.

Why did david say the following in Psalm 51:5 ....Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

We all are born into a sinful [world of iniquity] and if he says his mother was doing wrong the day he was conceived, then it is not recorded.

I believe one can become more and more enslaved to sin....but we don't develop a sin nature.

ok, if that is what you want to believe. I take the high road on this because we were created without sin, made to live a life without sin, until sin entered our world. And yes, you can become more and more enslaved in sin, if you do not walk with Yeshua who will strengthen you against all the devil's wiles.

The sin nature is that principle in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing....read more about the sin nature from Got Questions.

I am going to restate what you just wrote...
Sin nature in man makes him rebellious against God. ...

Now I say

a Godly nature in man makes him obedient to God...

I think it would depend if they were chosen by God before the foundations of the earth...elect.

If you are right then your fate has been decided before the foundations of the earth, so why bother?

 

[-57]

We all live in a sinful world, and innocent die, not because of quilt, but because of wrong place right time. MJ has not reached "doctrine state" as it is still a gathering of believers. Free Will comes into play here, which is a God given gift for man to choose whom he will serve.We all are born into a sinful [world of iniquity] and if he says his mother was doing wrong the day he was conceived, then it is not recorded. ok, if that is what you want to believe. I take the high road on this because we were created without sin, made to live a life without sin, until sin entered our world. And yes, you can become more and more enslaved in sin, if you do not walk with Yeshua who will strengthen you against all the devil's wiles.I am going to restate what you just wrote...
Sin nature in man makes him rebellious against God. ...

Now I say

a Godly nature in man makes him obedient to God... If you are right then your fate has been decided before the foundations of the earth, so why bother?

A lot of what you say is true...such as, "We all live in a sinful world"...but, you don't choose to be saved or not. God chooses you.
First God must allow you,,,John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

God has to draw you...John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 15:6 tells us Jesus chose us, we didn't choose Jesus.
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

As to why you ended with this..."If you are right then your fate has been decided before the foundations of the earth, so why bother?"...I don't understand why one would ask that.

 

[visionary]

A lot of what you say is true...such as, "We all live in a sinful world"...but, you don't choose to be saved or not. God chooses you.
First God must allow you,,,John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

God has to draw you...John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 15:6 tells us Jesus chose us, we didn't choose Jesus.
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

As to why you ended with this..."If you are right then your fate has been decided before the foundations of the earth, so why bother?"...I don't understand why one would ask that.

While you make a good case for predestination, fate, using scriptures, you don't see the fallacy of it. After all,....1 Tim 2:3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,…

 

[-57]

While you make a good case for predestination, fate, using scriptures, you don't see the fallacy of it. After all,....1 Tim 2:3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,…

Are you indicating universalism?

Romans 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told

Saved or not saved before they were born..why? Because it's not what we do, but rather the saved are called.

 

[rick357]

those He foreknew He predestined...this statement in no way violates the will of the Father or the will of men...knowing someones choice before they know there is a choice does not make them chose one way or the other...neither does providing all things to bring ones choice to realization...the choice to live a life generated by the self received from Adam or let that life die in Messiah and receive a life generated by the Father

 

[visionary]

those He foreknew He predestined...this statement in no way violates the will of the Father or the will of men...knowing someones choice before they know there is a choice does not make them chose one way or the other...neither does providing all things to bring ones choice to realization...the choice to live a life generated by the self received from Adam or let that life die in Messiah and receive a life generated by the Father

exactly...

 

[Meowzltov]

As for MJ, we don't believe that babies are "born sinners" or that they are born with a "sinful nature".

We believe that babies are born innocent, not righteous or unrighteous. We believe that every man has free will and chooses to sin.

We believe that man has chosen to corrupt himself and to go astray. Man is never forced to sin, but chooses to sin out of his own free will and that is why he will be held accountable for his sin. However, every man will sin at some point in time.

We call this "universal rebellion". Yet, this "universal rebellion" has nothing to do with they way they are born. We live in a sinful world where every man has been tempted to sin and every man has chosen to give into temptation.

People are not held morally responsible for the "sinful" things they do until they come to the point where they understand good and evil. This is called the "age" or the "state of accountability". It is only when people come to this "state of accountability" that they are held accountable by God for their moral choices. This is why the Bible says that people are sinners from their "youth" and not from "birth".

People are only accountable for their own moral choices. As a person chooses to sin and reject the light of nature, their conscience, the law of God written upon their hearts and the message of the Bible, they become more and more depraved. This results in them developing a "sinful nature" and becoming enslaved to sin.

If someone dies before reaching the "state of accountability" (ie. a baby, a child or mentally handicapped person), they will be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven

What say ye?

Genesis 6:12, Exodus 32:7, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Luke 6:45, Romans 3:23, Matthew 18:3, Matthew 19:13-15, Genesis 8:21, Deuteronomy 1:39, Romans 9:11, John 9:39-41, James 4:17

We? You got a frog in your pocket?

We're a diverse bunch in here, and that's fine. We all love Yeshua and Torah and that's enough to bind us together.

Well, no surprise we don't agree on this, but I'm not going to make it an issue. Why? Because MJ doesn't really take a stand on this, so your view is as good as anyone's. I would like to suggest that you read up on the Pelagian crisis. It surrounds the two camps in the Church: one that taught that we are basically good and can fulfill the laws, and the other that taught we had a sinful nature and although we could aspire to obey, we would never completely fulfill the laws. But that's just an FYI.

Okay, now for my POV: I believe we have a sinful nature, a yetzer hara, which is animal instinct.

Romans 7:18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Judaism also teaches the Yetzer Hara, the "evil inclination." And of course some branches of Christianity teach Original Sin. I'm not going to address original sin.

But since MJ is a Judaism, I will share my thoughts on yetzer tov and yetzer hara. The good inclination comes from being made in the image of God. It distinguishes us from animals. The evil inclination is actually only evil when it conflicts with good. The yetzer hara is in part the drive to have sex. But there is nothing wrong with husbands and wives making love and having children. The yetzer hara only becomes evil when it goes outside the bounds of what is right -- when it commits adultery, fornicates, rapes, and other perversions.

So I look at yetzer hara, and I really see it as something which is neutral, but CAN BE used either for good or for evil, depending on whether one acts lawfully or not. Where does it come from? It is animal instinct!!!! Procreate. Fight or flight. Eat. Rest. Bond. Save for when times are lean (aquire) Find safety. Nest. You get the idea. Each of these things are designed by God to help animals survive and perpetuate. But these instincts can often knock against the higher moral order of conscience. Empathy will rise and say, "You need to be a friend to that strange girl even if it risks losing your own friends." Justice will up and declare, "It isn't fair that you have four apples while that child is crying because he is so hungry." Instinct will fight back! "But if I don't have friends, no one will have my back when I need it. I'll be alone." "Why should I be the one to go hungry? I'm not the mother, that child is not my responsibility." And so, because we are fallen creatures, our yetzer hara and our yetzer tov battle it out. Because we are animals that God has made into something more, our instincts, our sinful natures, and our consciences, our Christ-natures are always going to conflict.

This is where I tell the Cherokee story of the two wolves. But you all have already heard it. The point is, feed your yetzer tov, so that it will be stronger. Feed it with prayer, the word, and meditation on the Lord. And with every good choice, the next good choice becomes a little easier.

 

[visionary]

We? You got a frog in your pocket?

We're a diverse bunch in here, and that's fine. We all love Yeshua and Torah and that's enough to bind us together.

Well, no surprise we don't agree on this, but I'm not going to make it an issue. Why? Because MJ doesn't really take a stand on this, so your view is as good as anyone's. I would like to suggest that you read up on the Pelagian crisis. It surrounds the two camps in the Church: one that taught that we are basically good and can fulfill the laws, and the other that taught we had a sinful nature and although we could aspire to obey, we would never completely fulfill the laws. But that's just an FYI.

Okay, now for my POV: I believe we have a sinful nature, a yetzer hara, which is animal instinct.

Romans 7:18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Judaism also teaches the Yetzer Hara, the "evil inclination." And of course some branches of Christianity teach Original Sin. I'm not going to address original sin.

But since MJ is a Judaism, I will share my thoughts on yetzer tov and yetzer hara. The good inclination comes from being made in the image of God. It distinguishes us from animals. The evil inclination is actually only evil when it conflicts with good. The yetzer hara is in part the drive to have sex. But there is nothing wrong with husbands and wives making love and having children. The yetzer hara only becomes evil when it goes outside the bounds of what is right -- when it commits adultery, fornicates, rapes, and other perversions.

So I look at yetzer hara, and I really see it as something which is neutral, but CAN BE used either for good or for evil, depending on whether one acts lawfully or not. Where does it come from? It is animal instinct!!!! Procreate. Fight or flight. Eat. Rest. Bond. Save for when times are lean (aquire) Find safety. Nest. You get the idea. Each of these things are designed by God to help animals survive and perpetuate. But these instincts can often knock against the higher moral order of conscience. Empathy will rise and say, "You need to be a friend to that strange girl even if it risks losing your own friends." Justice will up and declare, "It isn't fair that you have four apples while that child is crying because he is so hungry." Instinct will fight back! "But if I don't have friends, no one will have my back when I need it. I'll be alone." "Why should I be the one to go hungry? I'm not the mother, that child is not my responsibility." And so, because we are fallen creatures, our yetzer hara and our yetzer tov battle it out. Because we are animals that God has made into something more, our instincts, our sinful natures, and our consciences, our Christ-natures are always going to conflict.

This is where I tell the Cherokee story of the two wolves. But you all have already heard it. The point is, feed your yetzer tov, so that it will be stronger. Feed it with prayer, the word, and meditation on the Lord. And with every good choice, the next good choice becomes a little easier.

especially

"We had a sinful nature and although we could aspire to obey, we would never completely fulfill the laws."

... Then why would Yeshua say "Go and sin no more" if it was impossible. I have no disagreement with where you are going with this. .. except the path that you have chosen to support. It is the two wolves feeding choice here and before you know there were two, you are already have been feeding the wrong one. If that was true, then how can someone do what is right before knowing what is right or wrong? All in good conscience or as Paul put it.
Romans 2:14
for when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature that which is of the law, these, not having the law, are a law unto themselves;

 

[rick357]

the question is of nature...Adam was formed but became A living soul when the Spirit was breathed into Him...his nature was one(a shared life with YHWH)...when he fell he became a self separated from the one...every child born of Adam has been a self every since...the law came as a description of who we should be but the nature of self saw it as things to be done...why did Yeshua call those who had dedicated themselves to doing the law hypocrites...because making yourself do the right thing is a testimony that the right is not who you are...messiah provides that we can be made one...that the self can die as we become one with His cross...and that the breath of YHWH our Elohim can once more be our life...a shared life with our Father...however you word it children are self centered...we spend their childhood teaching them to not act as comes naturally to them...but their need is for the self to die and become one with YHWH

 

[Meowzltov]

Then why would Yeshua say "Go and sin no more" if it was impossible.

Because we should aspire to keep the law. Just because we cannot keep it perfectly doesn't mean we can't keep it. Just because I got drunk yesterday doesn't mean I can't be sober today. One day at a time, with God's help.

So I'm just curious. Do you really believe that a Christian can go without sinning for the rest of their life?

 

[visionary]

Inherent evil, or inherently good. Both are right, because we are a bit of both. But some have more inherently good about them long before they know or knew the truth, while others are inherently evil and nothing can save them.

 

[visionary]

Because we should aspire to keep the law. Just because we cannot keep it perfectly doesn't mean we can't keep it. Just because I got drunk yesterday doesn't mean I can't be sober today. One day at a time, with God's help.

So I'm just curious. Do you really believe that a Christian can go without sinning for the rest of their life?

God does believe it.. that is good enough for me. "without guile" "saints" are terms that come to mind. Yeshua came to save man from sin, not save them in their sin. If sin remains, then they are not yet "holy" nor "righteous".

 

[Honoluluwindow]

As for MJ, we don't believe that babies are "born sinners" or that they are born with a "sinful nature".

We believe that babies are born innocent, not righteous or unrighteous. We believe that every man has free will and chooses to sin.

We believe that man has chosen to corrupt himself and to go astray. Man is never forced to sin, but chooses to sin out of his own free will and that is why he will be held accountable for his sin. However, every man will sin at some point in time.

We call this "universal rebellion". Yet, this "universal rebellion" has nothing to do with they way they are born. We live in a sinful world where every man has been tempted to sin and every man has chosen to give into temptation.

People are not held morally responsible for the "sinful" things they do until they come to the point where they understand good and evil. This is called the "age" or the "state of accountability". It is only when people come to this "state of accountability" that they are held accountable by God for their moral choices. This is why the Bible says that people are sinners from their "youth" and not from "birth".

People are only accountable for their own moral choices. As a person chooses to sin and reject the light of nature, their conscience, the law of God written upon their hearts and the message of the Bible, they become more and more depraved. This results in them developing a "sinful nature" and becoming enslaved to sin.

If someone dies before reaching the "state of accountability" (ie. a baby, a child or mentally handicapped person), they will be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven

What say ye?

Genesis 6:12, Exodus 32:7, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Luke 6:45, Romans 3:23, Matthew 18:3, Matthew 19:13-15, Genesis 8:21, Deuteronomy 1:39, Romans 9:11, John 9:39-41, James 4:17

There are Messianic Jews that disagree with you

 

[Meowzltov]

Inherent evil, or inherently good. Both are right, because we are a bit of both. But some have more inherently good about them long before they know or knew the truth, while others are inherently evil and nothing can save them.

Well, we agree on this, sis. I think our biology and experiences help to form us. But primarily I think our primary nature is due to habit. The more good we do, the easier it is to do good. The more sin we do, the easier it is to sin.

Case in point, the movement from Pharaoh hardening his own heart for the first five plagues, to God hardening Pharaoh's heart for the last five plagues. IOW, God has a limit to his patience. He reaches a point where he says, "So this is how it is with you? SO BE IT." And he will harden our hearts. It is still possible to repent, but sooooooooo much harder.

 

[Meowzltov]

God does believe it.. that is good enough for me. "without guile" "saints" are terms that come to mind. Yeshua came to save man from sin, not save them in their sin. If sin remains, then they are not yet "holy" nor "righteous".

So please clarify for me: if a Christian (or whatever you wish to call them) swipes a pen for the office, are they a Christian?

I personally think that after we are forgiven and righteous IN GOD"S EYES, that God begins the process of sanctification, meaning that he will make us TRULY holy inside, a transformation in reality (not mere appearences). This continues throughout our Christian walk. So no, we are NOT yet holy or righteous in reality, but only in appearence to God. This is why we stumble and sin.

 

[rick357]

whatever is not of faith is sin...Yeshua is not trying to change what we do but give us life...trying to do right is nothing more than an imitation of life...however if we by faith trust depend and expect YHWH to actively be our life then doing the things contained in the law happens naturally by his life emanating through us doing evil or good by self generation is still the death of self...when the self conceives it brings forth sin...so the question is can we remain in faith...that we are dead in the cross and He is living in us