Born Again?

[redblue22]

I'm not sure if this relates, but I thought the culture at the time saw water as chaos and death.

 

[juvenissun]

Wow a little hostile today, aren't we? Besides, where did I say I didn't believe in a soul? I'm awaiting your exact citation. Furthermore
are you implying Catholics and Orthodox aren't Christian?

This whole post makes no sense to me.

They ARE Christians. Where did I say wrong?

 

[Robban]

I'm not sure if this relates, but I thought the culture at the time saw water as chaos and death.

Maybe "Waters" or the "The Waters" which I think can refer to "Multitudes"

or a whole sea of people, or so I have seen it used.

Water is Life giving,
Torah is refered to as water,

 

[Robban]

Maybe "Waters" or the "The Waters" which I think can refer to "Multitudes"

or a whole sea of people, or so I have seen it used.

Water is Life giving,
Torah is refered to as water,

Just found an example,

Revelation 17:15,

The oceans, lakes and rivers that the woman is sitting on represent masses of people of every race and nation,

Srange thing with thoughts,
How many thoughts does a person have every day, 7,000? 70,000? has anyone counted?

 

[extreme_zeal777]

Baptism is a process, and not so much as how mainstream christianity reveals it as being a ritual, where you dunk an individual under water and all of a sudden, they are transformed instantly.

It's a process and our walk with Christ is a Journey, that's why it's called " a WALK with Christ".

This process goes such as:
Water Baptismcleansing of the spirit, or washing away of sins, impurities, a sinful nature)

Baptism of Fire:
(Tribulation, obstacles, struggles, only in order to produce endurance as well as many other spiritual qualities, that are given for your mission regarding the kingdom of God here on earth).

And lastly is "The promised land, within you, completely perfected in righteousness ready to be used by God to do great things.

 

[extreme_zeal777]

If you look throughout scripture and observe the symbolism of fire and water, we can directly correlate it with it's meaning.
Moses for example, flees egypt and wanders the desert for 40 years, then encounters a burning bush.

Moses had to endure his tribulation of wandering in the desert before God could use him to lead his people.
Let's also take a look at the hebrews who were led out of captivity from egypt, passed through the red sea (water symbolism) and wandered the desert for 40 years before they could enter the promised land.

 

[extreme_zeal777]

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes i am not worthy to bear.
he shall baptize you with the holy Ghost and FIRE.

Baptism of fire:
A difficult situation that a company or individual experiences, that will result in either success or failure.

 

[dfw69]

Out of thin air?

The New Testament reveals God will make men the children of God through the Holy Spirit to change them into glorified beings one day

when the rapture happens that's when it will take place... They will become like Jesus , to be clothed in the righteousness of Jesus ... It's a gift ... For faith in Jesus ...they will be able to live in heaven and will behold the glory God has bestowed on Jesus

All made possible because of Jesus walk under the law and sacrifice of his body for all willing to believe

The one who I replied to said, "It starts with repentence"

It starts by being first born,

One thing at a time, first the natural, after the spiritual.

Yes I agree ... Only Jesus is the firstborn and all who unite with him by faith are to be the firstborn to recieve the promises ...we have not recieved them yet ...we continue to live by faith until the promises are fulfilled

Born of water, It is not about He can do this that or the other,

The "Bible" talks to us where we are at, in the situation we find ourselves in.

If we cannot find ourselves somewhere in the stories, we don,t exist.

Born of water?... I believe is faith in the New Testament...

Are you referring to baptism?.... From what I understand baptism is an act of faith... We are symbolically dead to our old lives as we are still bound to sin and death.. so we are submerged into the water as if we are being buried like Jesus was ...laid to rest if you will... But then resurrected when we rise up as Jesus did ... It's an act of faith of our death and resurrection to come ... Because of Jesus we will live again though we were dead

Moses said, "If you cannot forgive them, then strike my name out of the book you are Writing."
Moses is not mentioned in the rest of that chapter.
It goes to show,
You have to be careful what you say.

You believe they were not forgiven because Moses was not mentioned again in the chapter?

 

[redblue22]

There was a difference between living water and standing water. The fear of water was about seas.

And there is that whole thing about Jesus walking on water. I wonder what that meant.

 

[extreme_zeal777]

Interesting that you pointed out Jesus walking on water.
I would think it symbolizes flawlessness, if water symbolizes purity, then Jesus walking on it not only reveals his rule, but also he being more than pure, so divine that even purity sits beneath his feet.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes i am not worthy to bear.
he shall baptize you with the holy Ghost and FIRE.

Baptism of fire:
A difficult situation that a company or individual experiences, that will result in either success or failure.

As far as the baptism with the Holy Spirit is concerned a look at how and where this idea is used in the texts themselves all point to what transpired on Pentecost; thus the baptism with the Holy Spirit (from the perspective of Luke anyhow) is clearly a reference to the outpouring of the Spirit upon the nascent Church on the day of Pentecost. It is this which fulfills St. John the Baptist's statement that the one coming after him would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

The Church, historically, has practiced Chrismation--anointing with oil--as the sign and seal of the Holy Spirit; this practice is based on the apostolic act of laying on of hands as seen several times through the Acts of the Apostles. Christmation, originally, was done immediately following Baptism and thus Baptism and Christmation were treated together in the same Rite. This is still how things are done in the Eastern Churches. In the West the tradition arose that while a priest could baptize, only a bishop could chrismate; and thus over time Chrismation evolved into Confirmation in the West.

During the Reformation Luther challenged the sacramental status of Confirmation, but did not abolish it as a beneficial ecclesiastical rite--and so it was retained as it had been before, but without ascribing it a sacramental character. Instead Luther and the other Evangelical reformers focused on Baptism.

And, in fact, today anointing with oil remains part of the Baptismal Rite, thus in effect Chrismation is subsumed in Baptism. The emphasis being that the baptized Christian is sealed in Christ, with the Holy Spirit; and thus the fruits of Pentecost are retained because being a member of the Body of Christ one shares in the outpouring of the Spirit as it happened in the past and for "all flesh" as the text describes.

The "and fire" has two possible meanings, as I see it. One view (which as I understand it has some historical foundation, but I haven't studied it much in depth) would be that the fire here refers to, indeed, the troubles and tribulations of the saints in the world--a baptism with fire, passing through troubles of persecution, suffering, etc. The second, and the one which I have often advocated is that "with the Holy Spirit and fire" is singular, and thus is part of the same singular event of Pentecost already mentioned (thus, as the Acts records, the Spirit's manifest presence being indicated as a mighty wind and what appeared as tongues of flame).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Robban]

If you look throughout scripture and observe the symbolism of fire and water, we can directly correlate it with it's meaning.
Moses for example, flees egypt and wanders the desert for 40 years, then encounters a burning bush.

Moses had to endure his tribulation of wandering in the desert before God could use him to lead his people.
Let's also take a look at the hebrews who were led out of captivity from egypt, passed through the red sea (water symbolism) and wandered the desert for 40 years before they could enter the promised land.

Have you encountered a burning bush?
Did you throw a pail of water on it?
Moses had an eye for detail, it maybe not so strange with a burning bush,
but watching for some time he noticed that the fire was not devouring the bush.

 

[Robban]

The New Testament reveals God will make men the children of God through the Holy Spirit to change them into glorified beings one day

when the rapture happens that's when it will take place... They will become like Jesus , to be clothed in the righteousness of Jesus ... It's a gift ... For faith in Jesus ...they will be able to live in heaven and will behold the glory God has bestowed on Jesus

All made possible because of Jesus walk under the law and sacrifice of his body for all willing to Believe

Why cannot it happen now, or when what you call born again?
Are you sure you have not been taken for a ride?

Yes I agree ... Only Jesus is the firstborn and all who unite with him by faith are to be the firstborn to recieve the promises ...we have not recieved them yet ...we continue to live by faith until the promises are fulfilled



Born of water?... I believe is faith in the New Testament...

Are you referring to baptism?.... From what I understand baptism is an act of faith... We are symbolically dead to our old lives as we are still bound to sin and death.. so we are submerged into the water as if we are being buried like Jesus was ...laid to rest if you will... But then resurrected when we rise up as Jesus did ... It's an act of faith of our death and resurrection to come ... Because of Jesus we will live again though we were dead



You believe they were not forgiven because Moses was not mentioned again in the chapter?

 

[Robban]

The New Testament reveals God will make men the children of God through the Holy Spirit to change them into glorified beings one day

when the rapture happens that's when it will take place... They will become like Jesus , to be clothed in the righteousness of Jesus ... It's a gift ... For faith in Jesus ...they will be able to live in heaven and will behold the glory God has bestowed on Jesus

All made possible because of Jesus walk under the law and sacrifice of his body for all willing to Believe

I entered this thread out of curiosity I wanted to know what this bornagain thing was about,
all I have found out is it is something that happens but has not happened.

I mentioned Moses just as a passing thought, thoughts come and go all the time.

How can you be sure that what you are waiting for has not already happened,
and you have missed the boat.

Did he not say, you will do such great things and even greater.

So why are you not doing these great things?
Yes I agree ... Only Jesus is the firstborn and all who unite with him by faith are to be the firstborn to recieve the promises ...we have not recieved them yet ...we continue to live by faith until the promises are fulfilled



Born of water?... I believe is faith in the New Testament...

Are you referring to baptism?.... From what I understand baptism is an act of faith... We are symbolically dead to our old lives as we are still bound to sin and death.. so we are submerged into the water as if we are being buried like Jesus was ...laid to rest if you will... But then resurrected when we rise up as Jesus did ... It's an act of faith of our death and resurrection to come ... Because of Jesus we will live again though we were dead



You believe they were not forgiven because Moses was not mentioned again in the chapter?

 

[Robban]

Two attempts to respond, both bummers, have no more time to waste.

 

[dlamberth]

The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is merely a direct reflection, of being born again.
In order to be born again we must die too self, and ressurect in him.

I admit a bit of jaundice when I say that it's my take that most have no idea of the actual "experience" of Communion or Oneness or to put it another way, Spiritual Marriage in Christ that is required to be "Born Again". Most, in my opinion, are big on "belief" but not in the actual act of a deep opening up of heart and soul to the Christ experience.

 

[Rajni]

I admit a bit of jaundice when I say that it's my take that most have no idea of the actual "experience" of Communion or Oneness or to put it another way, Spiritual Marriage in Christ that is required to be "Born Again". Most, in my opinion, are big on "belief" but not in the actual act of a deep opening up of heart and soul to the Christ experience.

Amen; as the saying goes (I forget who said it), "Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a Love affair."


-

 

[Cearbhall]

Iam sure we are all aware of the term "born again" but few fail to grasp the deeper understanding of this belief in which Jesus mentioned in scripture stating, "In order for one to enter the kingdom of heaven they must be born again of water and spirit.

I think the first time I heard of this term was when Hannah Montana started and an article about Billy Ray's career said that he was a "born-again Christian." I had to look it up online because I didn't have the foggiest idea of what it was implying. I still don't know exactly what it means.

 

[MehGuy]

I grew up in a non-denominational Christian culture and born again was a frequently used term.

Usually it means someone who comes back to the fold, someone who gave up booze, prostitutes, hardcore drugs, life of crime for Jesus. Often people who grew up in the spiritual darkness of catholicism to a more protestant(esque) light, lol.

At least that's how it was used around my circles. Like all terms they probably have slightly different meanings in different spaces.

 

[Cearbhall]

Interestingly enough, I never really heard the phrase "born again" growing up (Catholic)

Same experience here. Right along with someone "being saved." Wasn't in our vocabulary.