"Born again" is not in the original text,

SavedByGrace3 · May 25, 2023

I always assumed that to be "born of water" was being born physically (the birth process) from your physical mother. And the second birth is of the spirit from the fire of the Spirit. Water and Fire.
Just a thought.

SavedByGrace3 · May 25, 2023

Der Alte said:
But NOT one single verse equates baptism with birth. That is a conclusion that is drawn by bringing disparate vss. together, as in this post.

Colossians 2:12
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. c.f. Rom 6:4-5
John 3:5
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6
(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
In this passage Jesus equates "born of water" with "born of flesh," not baptism, and "born of the spirit" with "born of the spirit."
What is the single sign which occurs at birth that signals birth is immanent? I was present at the birth of my oldest son, the birth pains had been going on for a period of time but something happened just as we were getting into cab to go to the hospital.
Please feel free to find one ancient Christian source, 2 or more would be better, which equates baptism with birth.

Yeah... what you said. John 3 is not speaking of water baptism.
There is a baptism into Christ, and we might consider the "eternal life" of 3:16 as referring to being baptized into Christ. Rom 6.

Jesus is YHWH · May 25, 2023

SavedByGrace3 said:
Yeah... what you said. John 3 is not speaking of water baptism.
There is a baptism into Christ, and we might consider the "eternal life" of 3:16 as referring to being baptized into Christ. Rom 6.

Otherwise physical water must be used to be saved and enter the kingdom of God. That would contradict the rest of scripture.

SavedByGrace3 · May 25, 2023

Jesus is YHWH said:
Otherwise physical water must be used to be saved and enter the kingdom of God. That would contradict the rest of scripture.

I was also surpirized to find that the "believe in" from John 3:16 is technically "believe INTO." eis rather than en.

SavedByGrace3 · May 25, 2023

This is a couple chapters from a book I wrote many years ago entitled "Foundational Teachings" based on the list found in Heb 6:1-3.
This material is about the "Baptisms" and refers to John 3 for base material.

Foundational Doctrines
f20 Baptism Into Christ

Hebrews 6:1-3

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;

not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead,

and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

The word "baptize" is from the Greek word "baptizo." It comes from the root "bapto," meaning "to dip, sink, plunge, submerge, or cover wholly." The meaning of the word can be seen from its usage in Romans 6 and Colossians 2.

Romans 6
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ
were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so, we also should walk in newness of life.

The word "into" is key in these verses. The Greek word for "in" is "en," while the word for "into" is "eis." The meaning of these simple prepositions is crucial to the understanding of the concept of baptism. The word "in" means to be stationary inside a place or time. You are "in" a car, "in" a house, or "in" the 20th century. The word "into" carries with it the concept of movement. You begin at a point outside and move "into" a place or time. We are baptized (submerged) "into" Christ, water, and the Holy Spirit. The concept is that you begin being separate from and outside of the element. You then proceed from the point outside- "into" the element. Once fully submerged, you are considered one with the element. Upon emergence, you are a part of the element.

Look at the reference to Moses and the Jews as they left Egypt:

1 Corinthians 10
1 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, that all our fathers were under the cloud,
and all passed through the sea,
2 and all to (into) Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea;

The word "to" in the phrase "to Moses" is the Greek "eis": which is "into." The People who were with Moses in the cloud were baptized "into" Moses. When they emerged from the cloud and the sea, they were one with him. They were considered equals with Moses. But the scripture goes on to say that even though they were identified with Moses, God was not pleased with some of them, and some were overthrown in the wilderness. But the point is (for this discussion) that when they entered the cloud, they were separate from Moses, while in the cloud they were baptized into Moses, and upon exit, they were one or identified with Moses.

Foundational Doctrines
f21 Teaching on Baptisms INTO

For some time, I have been studying certain passages from John (and elsewhere) which involve an understanding of the Greek. Specifically, the Greek prepositions "en" (in) and "eis" (into). In themselves, they are not particularly interesting. But when one considers some of the usages, some unusual ideas are brought forth. Take the famous passage in John 3:3-17, which I will not present in its' entirety for brevities' sake.

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is
not able to enter into the reign of God;
..........
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born again;
.............
14 `And as Moses did *exalt* the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man
to be exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every
one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life.
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the
world may be saved through him;
18 he who is believing into him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already,
because he hath not believed *into* the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I have changed the prepositions to their corrected form. Most notable, I think, is the famous verse 16: "every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life. "The difference between these two words, "in" and "into," I think is important.

Strong’s entries:
Lexicon Greek
1519 1519 eis {ice}
a primary preposition; TDNT - 2:420,211; prep AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58,
toward 29, against 26, misc 321; 1773 1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

Lexicon Greek
1722 1722 en {en}
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication)
instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537);
TDNT - 2:537,233; prep AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, misc 321; 2782 1)
in, by, with etc.

The primary difference is in motion. While studying Greek years ago, I remember a diagram of prepositions. There was a box with the prepositions arranged around it in their respective positions, creating a graphic representation of the words. The word "over" was placed over the box, the word "under" was placed under the box, etc.. The Greek word in (en) was placed stationary inside the box. No movement. As Strong’s definition above says: "denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e., a relation of rest..."
The word into (eis) was represented in the diagram by an arrow beginning at a point outside of the box, and proceeding to the inside of the box, stopping at the word "in." Again the idea being portrayed when the word "into" is used is one of _motion_. Moving or changing in position or state, or time. The understanding that I am coming to is somewhat different from the conventional.
For many years I have held that to "believe in" something means to mentally or spiritually accept or agree with a truth or to ascribe to an unseen reality in space or time that cannot be proven by ordinary, natural means. i.e., I believe in God, I believe in creation, I believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and I still hold this understanding.

Yet, in reviewing the above information concerning the difference between "in" and "into," I am forced to reconsider some of the passages that I previously thought I knew the meaning.

I knew what it meant to believe "in" him, but what about to believe "into" him?
Looking back at the context of the passage in John 3 brought some insight.

Vs. 16 is part of a teaching by Jesus about being "born again." He goes on to say that this birth is one of the spirit, not the flesh. It is also a second birth, in that it is called being "born again." So this "new birth" of the spirit involves a change. A result of this change is that a person may now "enter into the reign of God." A second clue is in verse 8: "the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit." A person born of the spirit, or born again, can hear the voice of the Spirit or commune with God.

If we understand the context of the passage to be consistent throughout, then it is reasonable to think that believing "into" Him has something to do with our spirit being born again, by which we enter into the reign of God and are able to commune with the Spirit of God.

This brings us to verse 14,
14 `And as Moses did exalt the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be
exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life

Some revelation comes from studying these verses. If you recall the story of the serpents in the wilderness, you will remember that the people were plagued by serpents. (Num 21) God instructed Moses to construct a brazen serpent and to raise it above the people. When they were bitten, they could look upon the serpent and were "given life for it." It is significant that this wording was used. It does not say they were healed; it says they were given life. Youngs Literal translation is excellent:

Numbers 21:
9 "And Moses maketh a serpent of brass, and setteth it on the ensign, and it hath been,
if the serpent hath bitten any man, and he hath looked expectingly unto the serpent of brass--
he hath lived."

Note the word "ensign" or "standard." No mere "post" or "stick." The brazen serpent was placed on a vehicle of honor to be a glorious symbol that people rally around. Hence the Greek word for "exalt" in Jo 3:14.
The common understanding of John 3:14 is that the ensign is the cross. But a new understanding emerges when we remember that the new birth is not a result of the cross but of the resurrection!

1 Peter 1:
3 (KJS) Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to
his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of
Jesus Christ from the dead.

We are born again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. In the type, the Jews believed into ("looked expectantly unto") the "exalted" brazen serpent, and were given life, we too "believe into" the "exalted" Jesus, and are given life. The "exalted" Jesus is the resurrected Jesus! Not the crucified Jesus up on the cross.

The new understanding is that there is a difference between a general "believe in Him" and supernatural "believe into Him." We have to believe that Jesus is the Christ, but this reveals a deeper understanding of what happens when we do. We believe into His "exaltation," and are born again, being raised up together with Him. This would change our understanding of the "brazen serpent" type. It was not the cross, but the resurrection that was pointed to by the brazen serpent. It is the resurrection that gives us life. The cross was not an "exaltation," the resurrection was! This in no way diminishes the importance of the cross or the tremendous sacrifice of our Lord. But it deepens our understanding of the spiritual mechanics of the operation of God in the provision of the new birth.

The best scripture to add to this is:

Ephesians 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Here we see Christ being raised up (as an ensign), wherein we “believe into the operation of God” (Col 2:15), and are quickened together with Him, and are made to sit with Him (entering the reign of God!) in heavenly places!

Look at Colossians 2:12.

Colossians 2:12 (KJS)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him]
through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Doctrinally, this is referred to as Baptism into Christ.

Romans 6:
3 (KJS) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were
baptized into his death? {were: or, are}
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was
raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk
in newness of life.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJS)
For by one Spirit are *we all baptized into
one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether
[we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink
into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

2 Corinthians 1:21 (KJS)
Now he which stablisheth us with you into Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;

Galatians 2:16 (KJS)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
even we have believed into Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:27 (KJS)
For as many of you as have been baptized into
Christ have put on Christ.

John 12:46 (KJS)
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever
believeth into me should not abide in darkness.

Romans 3:22 (KJS)
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ into all and
upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Der Alte · May 25, 2023

@SavedByGrace3
Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew. Chap. XCI. — The Cross Was Foretold in the Blessings of Joseph, and in the Serpent That Was Lifted Up.
“And God by Moses shows in another way the force of the mystery of the cross, when He said in the blessing wherewith Joseph was blessed, ‘From the blessing of the Lord is his land; for the seasons of heaven, and for the dews, and for the deep springs from beneath, and for the seasonable fruits of the sun,224 and for the coming together of the months, and for the heights of the everlasting mountains, and for the heights of the hills, and for the ever-flowing rivers, and for the fruits of the fatness of the earth; and let the things accepted by Him who appeared in the bush come on the head and crown of Joseph. Let him be glorified among his brethren;225 his beauty is [like] the firstling of a bullock; his horns the horns of an unicorn: with these shall he push the nations from one end of the earth to another.’ (Deu_33:13-17) Now, no one could say or prove that the horns of an unicorn represent any other fact or figure than the type which portrays the cross. For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn. And the part which is fixed in the centre, on which are suspended those who are crucified, also stands out like a horn; and it also looks like a horn conjoined and fixed with the other horns. And the expression, ‘With these shall he push as with horns the nations from one end of the earth to another,’ is indicative of what is now the fact among all the nations. For some out of all the nations, through the power of this mystery, having been so pushed, that is, pricked in their hearts, have turned from vain idols and demons to serve God. But the same figure is revealed for the destruction and condemnation of the unbelievers; even as Amalek was defeated and Israel victorious when the people came out of Egypt, by means of the type of the stretching out of Moses’ hands, and the name of Jesus (Joshua), by which the son of Nave (Nun) was called. And it seems that the type and sign, which was erected to counteract the serpents which bit Israel, was intended for the salvation of those who believe that death was declared to come thereafter on the serpent through Him that would be crucified, but salvation to those who had been bitten by him and had betaken themselves to Him that sent His Son into the world to be crucified.226 For the Spirit of prophecy by Moses did not teach us to believe in the serpent, since it shows us that he was cursed by God from the beginning; and in Isaiah tells us that he shall be put to death as an enemy by the mighty sword, which is Christ.

One Son · May 26, 2023

SavedByGrace3 said:
This is a couple chapters from a book I wrote many years ago entitled "Foundational Teachings" based on the list found in Heb 6:1-3.
This material is about the "Baptisms" and refers to John 3 for base material.

Foundational Doctrines
f20 Baptism Into Christ

Hebrews 6:1-3
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;
not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead,
and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

The word "baptize" is from the Greek word "baptizo." It comes from the root "bapto," meaning "to dip, sink, plunge, submerge, or cover wholly." The meaning of the word can be seen from its usage in Romans 6 and Colossians 2.

Romans 6
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ
were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so, we also should walk in newness of life.

The word "into" is key in these verses. The Greek word for "in" is "en," while the word for "into" is "eis." The meaning of these simple prepositions is crucial to the understanding of the concept of baptism. The word "in" means to be stationary inside a place or time. You are "in" a car, "in" a house, or "in" the 20th century. The word "into" carries with it the concept of movement. You begin at a point outside and move "into" a place or time. We are baptized (submerged) "into" Christ, water, and the Holy Spirit. The concept is that you begin being separate from and outside of the element. You then proceed from the point outside- "into" the element. Once fully submerged, you are considered one with the element. Upon emergence, you are a part of the element.

Look at the reference to Moses and the Jews as they left Egypt:

1 Corinthians 10
1 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, that all our fathers were under the cloud,
and all passed through the sea,
2 and all to (into) Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea;

The word "to" in the phrase "to Moses" is the Greek "eis": which is "into." The People who were with Moses in the cloud were baptized "into" Moses. When they emerged from the cloud and the sea, they were one with him. They were considered equals with Moses. But the scripture goes on to say that even though they were identified with Moses, God was not pleased with some of them, and some were overthrown in the wilderness. But the point is (for this discussion) that when they entered the cloud, they were separate from Moses, while in the cloud they were baptized into Moses, and upon exit, they were one or identified with Moses.

Foundational Doctrines
f21 Teaching on Baptisms INTO

For some time, I have been studying certain passages from John (and elsewhere) which involve an understanding of the Greek. Specifically, the Greek prepositions "en" (in) and "eis" (into). In themselves, they are not particularly interesting. But when one considers some of the usages, some unusual ideas are brought forth. Take the famous passage in John 3:3-17, which I will not present in its' entirety for brevities' sake.

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is
not able to enter into the reign of God;
..........
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born again;
.............
14 `And as Moses did *exalt* the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man
to be exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every
one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life.
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the
world may be saved through him;
18 he who is believing into him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already,
because he hath not believed *into* the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I have changed the prepositions to their corrected form. Most notable, I think, is the famous verse 16: "every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life. "The difference between these two words, "in" and "into," I think is important.

Strong’s entries:
Lexicon Greek
1519 1519 eis {ice}
a primary preposition; TDNT - 2:420,211; prep AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58,
toward 29, against 26, misc 321; 1773 1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

Lexicon Greek
1722 1722 en {en}
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication)
instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537);
TDNT - 2:537,233; prep AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, misc 321; 2782 1)
in, by, with etc.

The primary difference is in motion. While studying Greek years ago, I remember a diagram of prepositions. There was a box with the prepositions arranged around it in their respective positions, creating a graphic representation of the words. The word "over" was placed over the box, the word "under" was placed under the box, etc.. The Greek word in (en) was placed stationary inside the box. No movement. As Strong’s definition above says: "denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e., a relation of rest..."
The word into (eis) was represented in the diagram by an arrow beginning at a point outside of the box, and proceeding to the inside of the box, stopping at the word "in." Again the idea being portrayed when the word "into" is used is one of _motion_. Moving or changing in position or state, or time. The understanding that I am coming to is somewhat different from the conventional.
For many years I have held that to "believe in" something means to mentally or spiritually accept or agree with a truth or to ascribe to an unseen reality in space or time that cannot be proven by ordinary, natural means. i.e., I believe in God, I believe in creation, I believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and I still hold this understanding.

Yet, in reviewing the above information concerning the difference between "in" and "into," I am forced to reconsider some of the passages that I previously thought I knew the meaning.

I knew what it meant to believe "in" him, but what about to believe "into" him?
Looking back at the context of the passage in John 3 brought some insight.

Vs. 16 is part of a teaching by Jesus about being "born again." He goes on to say that this birth is one of the spirit, not the flesh. It is also a second birth, in that it is called being "born again." So this "new birth" of the spirit involves a change. A result of this change is that a person may now "enter into the reign of God." A second clue is in verse 8: "the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit." A person born of the spirit, or born again, can hear the voice of the Spirit or commune with God.

If we understand the context of the passage to be consistent throughout, then it is reasonable to think that believing "into" Him has something to do with our spirit being born again, by which we enter into the reign of God and are able to commune with the Spirit of God.

This brings us to verse 14,
14 `And as Moses did exalt the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be
exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life

Some revelation comes from studying these verses. If you recall the story of the serpents in the wilderness, you will remember that the people were plagued by serpents. (Num 21) God instructed Moses to construct a brazen serpent and to raise it above the people. When they were bitten, they could look upon the serpent and were "given life for it." It is significant that this wording was used. It does not say they were healed; it says they were given life. Youngs Literal translation is excellent:

Numbers 21:
9 "And Moses maketh a serpent of brass, and setteth it on the ensign, and it hath been,
if the serpent hath bitten any man, and he hath looked expectingly unto the serpent of brass--
he hath lived."

Note the word "ensign" or "standard." No mere "post" or "stick." The brazen serpent was placed on a vehicle of honor to be a glorious symbol that people rally around. Hence the Greek word for "exalt" in Jo 3:14.
The common understanding of John 3:14 is that the ensign is the cross. But a new understanding emerges when we remember that the new birth is not a result of the cross but of the resurrection!

1 Peter 1:
3 (KJS) Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to
his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of
Jesus Christ from the dead.

We are born again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. In the type, the Jews believed into ("looked expectantly unto") the "exalted" brazen serpent, and were given life, we too "believe into" the "exalted" Jesus, and are given life. The "exalted" Jesus is the resurrected Jesus! Not the crucified Jesus up on the cross.

The new understanding is that there is a difference between a general "believe in Him" and supernatural "believe into Him." We have to believe that Jesus is the Christ, but this reveals a deeper understanding of what happens when we do. We believe into His "exaltation," and are born again, being raised up together with Him. This would change our understanding of the "brazen serpent" type. It was not the cross, but the resurrection that was pointed to by the brazen serpent. It is the resurrection that gives us life. The cross was not an "exaltation," the resurrection was! This in no way diminishes the importance of the cross or the tremendous sacrifice of our Lord. But it deepens our understanding of the spiritual mechanics of the operation of God in the provision of the new birth.

The best scripture to add to this is:

Ephesians 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Here we see Christ being raised up (as an ensign), wherein we “believe into the operation of God” (Col 2:15), and are quickened together with Him, and are made to sit with Him (entering the reign of God!) in heavenly places!

Look at Colossians 2:12.

Colossians 2:12 (KJS)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him]
through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Doctrinally, this is referred to as Baptism into Christ.

Romans 6:
3 (KJS) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were
baptized into his death? {were: or, are}
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was
raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk
in newness of life.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJS)
For by one Spirit are *we all baptized into
one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether
[we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink
into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

2 Corinthians 1:21 (KJS)
Now he which stablisheth us with you into Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;

Galatians 2:16 (KJS)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
even we have believed into Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:27 (KJS)
For as many of you as have been baptized into
Christ have put on Christ.

John 12:46 (KJS)
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever
believeth into me should not abide in darkness.

Romans 3:22 (KJS)
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ into all and
upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Good post

Jn.6:52(ASV)
The Jews therefore strove one with another, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves. 54He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me. 58This is the bread which came down out of heaven: not as the fathers ate, and died; he that eateth this bread shall live for ever.

59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new. (2Cor.5:17).

Dahveed · May 26, 2023

Der Alte said:
Thank you for your opinion.

And as they say, "You're entitled to your opinion..."

But grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Born of God. 1 John 5:1

hedrick · May 26, 2023

Jesus is YHWH said:
Are you disagreeing?

Without tracing back all the comments I can’t tell. My point was that Jesus talked about being born from above, I.e. of the Spirit. Nicodemus misunderstood, interpreting his words on the physical rather than spiritual level, hence understanding it as born again, and saying it impossible to go back to the womb.

Heres what Brown says in the Anchor Bible commentary

“John 3:3 (AYB 29): rom above. The Gr. aōthen means both “again” and “from above,” and the double meaning is used here as part of the technique of misunderstanding. Although in vs. 4 Nicodemus takes Jesus to have meant “again,” Jesus’ primary meaning in vs. 3 was “from above.” This is indicated from the parallel in 3:31, as well as from the two other Johannine uses of aōthen (19:11, 23).”

Jesus is YHWH · May 26, 2023

hedrick said:
Without tracing back all the comments I can’t tell. My point was that Jesus talked about being born from above, I.e. of the Spirit. Nicodemus misunderstood, interpreting his words on the physical rather than spiritual level, hence understanding it as born again, and saying it impossible to go back to the womb.

Heres what Brown says in the Anchor Bible commentary

“John 3:3 (AYB 29): rom above. The Gr. aōthen means both “again” and “from above,” and the double meaning is used here as part of the technique of misunderstanding. Although in vs. 4 Nicodemus takes Jesus to have meant “again,” Jesus’ primary meaning in vs. 3 was “from above.” This is indicated from the parallel in 3:31, as well as from the two other Johannine uses of aōthen (19:11, 23).”

OK thanks for clarifying. I have Browns 2 volume Commentary set on the gospel of John, I will read his thoughts on John 3.

hedrick · May 26, 2023

Jesus is YHWH said:
OK thanks for clarifying. I have Browns 2 volume Commentary set on the gospel of John, I will read his thoughts on John 3.

One reason this is controversial is that the Greek ambiguity does not exist in Aramaic. So Nicodemus can’t actually have misunderstood Jesus in precisely this way. Of course he could still have misunderstood in a different way. It’s pretty obvious that the Gospels aren’t exact transcripts. Recorders didn’t exist. Rather, they try to get the message right.t

Dahveed · May 26, 2023

hedrick said:
Without tracing back all the comments I can’t tell. My point was that Jesus talked about being born from above, I.e. of the Spirit. ...

Heres what Brown says in the Anchor Bible commentary

“John 3:3 (AYB 29): rom above. The Gr. aōthen means both “again” and “from above,” ...

Born again, 1 Peter 1:23 born from above John 3:7, renewed John 1:13, born of God 1 John 5:1, born of faith 1 John 5:4, regeneration Titus 3:5, converted Ezekiel 18:32
Refers to the new covenant in Christ. 1 John 2:8 Created in Christ Jesus.

Jesus is YHWH · May 26, 2023

@Bob corrigan

Born of Water John 3

John 3:1-7. Lets look at the context of Jesus interaction with Nicodemus. All human beings have experienced natural birth on earth, if they expect to go to heaven, they must experience a supernatural spiritual birth from above. Nicodemus was a well educated religious leader who did not understand what the Saviour was talking about. Jesus was speaking about a spiritual birth, but Nicodemus thought of a physical birth.

The situation is no different today When you talk with people about being born again, they often begin to discuss their family's religious heritage, their church membership, religious ceremonies like baptism etc....Jesus being a patient teacher picked up on Nicodemus' words and further explained the new birth. To be "born of water" is to be born physically ("enter a second time into his mother's womb") but to be born again means to be born of the Spirit. Just as there are two parents for physical birth, so there are two for spiritual birth: the Spirit of God (John 3:5) and the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23-25). The Spirit of God takes the Word of God and, when the sinner believes, imparts the life of God.Jesus was not teaching that the new birth comes through water baptism. In the NT baptism is connected with death, not birth and no amount of physical water can cause a spiritual change in a person.

The emphasis in John 3:14-21 is on believing, because salvation comes through faith. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- God causes us to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :

1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom

conclusion: just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)

hope this helps !!!

Der Alte · May 27, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
You're going to have to deal with the fact that native Greek speakers understood John 3:5 to mean a single birth of water and the Spirit, which is baptism.
You are putting your privately held opinion above the word of God.
-CryptoLutheran

An empty claim. You have not shown that.

Dahveed · May 28, 2023

JulieB67 said:
John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:12 "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"
What heavenly thing has he been trying to tell him? It's in the very next verse which is exactly what he was stating to begin with in verse 3.
John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

JulieB67 said:
He's stating no man can ascend up to heaven but he that came down from heaven -born from above. And states "even" the Son of man. Many think this is talking about only Christ. But this verse is a second witness to verse 3.

And this ties into this verse from the OT.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

It's our Father that puts our spirits into the womb...

Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? ...What is His name, and what is His Son’s name? Prov 30:4,

Who marked off the earth's dimensions? Who stretched a measuring line across it?
who laid its cornerstone—while the morning stars sang together? Job 38:5-7

Lord, you alone are my portion and my cup; you make my lot secure.
The boundary lines fall for me in pleasant place; Yes, a delightful inheritance is mine.
I will not be shaken. Psalm 16:5-8

Ask your father and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you.
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. Deut 32:7-8

Your people present themselves willingly In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning; Psalm 110:2-4

To each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift; When He ascended on high...Ephesians 4:7-9

Yeshua HaDerekh · May 29, 2023

Do none understand this? FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT ENTER/INHERIT THE KINGDOM. Only the select few have entered while still alive. Usually for a later purpose and will still be killed. Yeshua asked Nakdimon WHY (he being a leader of Israel) did he not understand this. The reason was that he was of the Perushim and they DID believe in the resurrection of the dead. He SHOULD have alreadyknow that. Shaul understood this too in 1 Corinthians 15:50.

Dahveed · May 29, 2023

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Do none understand this? FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT ENTER/INHERIT THE KINGDOM. Only the select few have entered while still alive. Usually for a later purpose and will still be killed. Yeshua asked Nakdimon WHY (he being a leader of Israel) did he not understand this. The reason was that he was of the Perushim and they DID believe in the resurrection of the dead. He SHOULD have alreadyknow that.

But then they remembered the days of Moses saying:
“Where is He who brought them up out of the sea With the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,
Who led them by the right hand of Moses, With His glorious arm, Dividing the water before themTo make for Himself an everlasting name; Isaiah 63:10-12

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Shaul understood this too in 1 Corinthians 15:50.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Cor 10:1-4

Yeshua HaDerekh · May 29, 2023

Dahveed said:
But then they remembered the days of Moses saying:
“Where is He who brought them up out of the sea With the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,
Who led them by the right hand of Moses, With His glorious arm, Dividing the water before themTo make for Himself an everlasting name; Isaiah 63:10-12

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Cor 10:1-4

What is the purpose of quoting unrelated out of context verses? I see you do that quite a bit from looking at your many previous posts...

Divide · May 29, 2023

It isnt that complicated. Here, I'll show you.

John 3:3-6
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.,,,/KJV

We was born on earth spiritually dead because Adam & Eve fell in Eden.
You must be born again... (from above with a new spirit that God gives us!)
How can that be?! Easy. We get born on earth by water,(my water broke take me to the hospital!). so that's one birth. Then we need to be given a new spirit from above when we we are saved.

I think it's called born again because we were alive spiritually before...Before the foundations of the world, He knew you. He knit us together in the womb. And were born into sin. Just because you can't remember being in Heaven before being born means squat. The word of God sure hits on the subject though, huh.
Becoming a child of God by grace with faith even a little bit sure brought changes to my life.

Born of water = 1 Birth.
Born of Spirit = Born Again, from above, and all the above praise the Lord!

(First thing I learned about God was that He is not an angry God.)

Yeshua HaDerekh · May 30, 2023

Dahveed said:
It's only unrelated for those who are unaware that we're established through faith in Christ.
For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them because of unbelief. Heb 4:2
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal 3:13-14

Indeed, Now that you're in the faith you are united to Christ. Gal 3:25-29

But it may be falling on deaf ears, since you have become dull of hearing. Hebrews 5:10-14

lol, again posting unrelated out of context verses. It is not my fault if you have a problem staying within context of the OP and on topic...I will leave the milk for you...

"Born again" is not in the original text,

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

my Lord and my God !

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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my Lord and my God !

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my Lord and my God !

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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