Book of Numbers

[Steve_SandbachBaptist_UK]

Hi, I am reading through the book of Numbers at the moment, having reached chapter 20.

I have become a bit perplexed and concerned with parts of what I am reading though, as God seems to support cruel punishments. A good and short e.g. of this is Numbers 15:32-35 : "Once during these wilderness years a man was caught gathering wood on the Sabbath. The ones who caught him hauled him before Moses and Aaron and the congregation. They put him in custody until it became clear what to do with him. Then God spoke to Moses: 'Give the man the death penalty. Yes, kill him, the whole community hurling stones at him outside the camp'. So the whole community took him outside the camp and threw stones at him, an execution commanded by God and given threw Moses."

I can appreciate that punishment was needed but the God in this passage does not seem like the loving God we worship - he seems to revel in this punishment. This may suggest that God has changed his attitudes - but the Bible says he is unchanging. Therefore what are we to make of this?

 

[RVincent]

By itself, the verse seems to read that the man was just picking up sticks to burn for warmth. But we need to look closer...

(Exo 20:10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:​

any work: that is, any forbidden work...

(Lev 23:7) In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.​

servile work: laborious work.

(Num 28:18) In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:​

What was this man doing?

(Num 15:32) And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.​

gathered: Heb. qashash, to become sapless through drought; used only as denom. from H7179; to forage for straw, stubble or wood; fig. to assemble. Cp. Exo. 5:12.

This guy wasn't just picking up sticks, he clearing a field.

Picking up a stick to throw in a fire place is not work. But Christ became our rest, i.e. Sabbath. And since the law was the schoolmaster that points to Christ (Gal. 3:24), defiling the Sabbath Day had a far greater significance then.

 

[christian-only]

The Sabbath was instituted for MERCY. If God allowed this man to get away with breaking it, what about the man that made his employee work on the Sabbath? He'd have an example to excuse himself with, and then there might as well not even be a Sabbath. Besides, God punishes all DISOBEDIENCE, even when it seems small to us. If your church doesn't teach this, find a new one, because they've invented a false God.

 

[Steve_SandbachBaptist_UK]

Ok, first of all I was not really disturbed so much by the fact that he was killed, as the fact that God encouraged a cruel killing, i.e. stoning by the whole congregation - public humiliation eventually resulting in death. I just felt God could have done it himself privately - e.g. made him have a heart attack, resulting in instant death. Vincent, you have explained your points well, though.

Christian-only, how can you say my church has invented a 'false God'... have you ever been? Anyway they DO teach that, or at least they don't teach anything contradictory. I might also point out that it was my personal query, nothing to do with my church.

Steve

 

[daveleau]

Stoning was one of the two ways that capital punishment was carried out in the OT. The other was to push a man off of a building and then stone him if he did not die. The person who was the accuser was the one who either pushed or threw the first stone. It was meant as not only punishment, but as a way to convey the seriousness of following the law to the rest of the community. If He'd done it Himself, it would not have had the same affect on the rest of the community and they would not have learned, which is one of God's ultimate goals in this: us learning from mistakes.

 

[jbarcher]

"I can appreciate that punishment was needed but the God in this passage does not seem like the loving God we worship - he seems to revel in this punishment."

Well, before you go from "God told them to stone a guy" to sheer malevolence...

Bring to us the texts that make you think it is so. Thanks.

 

[Mary_Magdalene]

ignorance of the law does not make one "not guilty". If a grown man was to murder someone today and stated he just came to our country and didnt know it was against the law, do we let him go? no-he would be punished just as anyone else was. God is fair and just-and He wants us to be also.

as far as giving the man a heart attack, or something....God told the people what His commandments were and what the punishment was. plain and simple. the man broke the law and was punished just as God said he would be. This being God's nature-He means what He says. This was probably a great example to the Israelites who were struggling with trusting Him as it was. This act of God probably instilled a great deal of trust into them. (Thank God for His grace! I would be dead by now!)

 

[Steve_SandbachBaptist_UK]

Yeah but why not just kill him in a less cruel manner? This was the question I was asking (sort of) in the original post. I'm not criticising God, after all who am I to criticise God, just wondering why he did it like that and if anyone can come up with an answer.

Daveleau/Godschosengirl - thank you for your responses. You are right GCG, it was a way of showing God means what he says. As for the other guy 'sweetsoulsong', it's the way he says "yes, kill him..." I have to add though that I was reading from The Message and I ought to look up the above passage in the NIV. I was just a bit disturbed, not just by the passage 15:32-35 but other passages in the following chapters. Leviticus/Numbers are hard books to wade through, although don't get me wrong, I have quite enjoyed them - but they are challenging and test the reader's dedication, even in The Message.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[jbarcher]

Hm...maybe the question "why not kill him in a different way" will recieve a similiar answer to "why doesn't God just sort of, like, sit up in the sky and everyone can look up at Him and then everyone will believe?"

Why does God use the methods He does...I mean, surely it is possible that God could use other methods! (To that I say, "I need to do more research before attempting an answer.")

 

[Mary_Magdalene]

Just thinking aloud as i write....i also wonder about what people back then thought about death. i mean, was it a big deal if someone died (i guess so, we saw Abraham mourn Sarah, etc.).

But would it be more seen as punishment dieing that way?

Just thinking out loud here.


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They have great, in depth ones on every book on the bible-I am addicted!!

 

[mark kennedy]

I can appreciate that punishment was needed but the God in this passage does not seem like the loving God we worship - he seems to revel in this punishment. This may suggest that God has changed his attitudes - but the Bible says he is unchanging. Therefore what are we to make of this?

God didn't change attitudes, the Old Testament Law called for blessings for obediance and curses for disobediance. A loving God is a little vauge since he loves righteousness and hates wickedness. Righteousness recieves God's favor and wickedness recieves God's wrath. There is no way of sugercoating this, this is also the work of a loving and righteous God:

"But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things."
(Acts 4 1-5, The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.)

The fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom in Proverbs opening verses and the benifits of wisdom are like treasures. However God does not abide a fool and His wrath falls with terrible vengence. Now that may seem vindictive and of course it is but look at it from His perspective. God has all eternity to consider and there is such a thing as killing the body to save the soul:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep"
(ICor. 11:29,30, The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.)

The Lord also showed mercy to many, he was often moved with compassion, but he also spoke of wrath many times. I can't really cover all the times he spoke of this but this is one such statement:

"*Woe to the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come; yet woe to that man by whom the offence comes! *And if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee; it is good for thee to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into eternal fire. *And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee; it is good for thee to enter into life one-eyed, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire."
(Matt. 18:7-9, 1890 Darby Bible)

Whenever we are asked for the Gospel the first verse that comes to mind is John 3:16, but have we forgetten that the Gospel is actually more then that. Its not 'goodnews' to the unrepentant sinner.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters
(Rev. 14:6-9,The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.)

What exactly do you think has changed? God's attitude has actually gotten much more harsh. His wrath accumulates like lightning thunder and hail in stormclouds of judgment. He will not even spare belivers when they refuse to repent of their sin, what do you think he has in store for the wicked?

 

[pimorton]

Stoning by the community was used 1) as a deterent to further disobedience; and 2) to give the community an obligation in fulfilling this distasteful but necessary part of the law. It is interesting that the person bringing the accusation against the condemned was obliged to throw the first stone (or has been noted before, to give the push). This prevented someone from bringing an accusation without first considering the consequences and whether the offense was sufficient to deserve death by my hand.

 

[jbarcher]

"God's attitude has actually gotten much more harsh."

What is harsh about a just judge?

 

[Steve_SandbachBaptist_UK]

Yes I think, Pimorton, that was a good way of doing things, as it would have made people less willing to bring accusations.

Sweet - you've got a point.
I thank you, Steve