BNP Hate Speech Trial

[Bonhoffer]

It looks like Nick Griffin and Mark Collet are going to win their case and escape punishment.

To some extent I am glad about this. Dont get me wrong I hate the BNP. They disgust me! However the case against Griffin isnt strong enough and to imprison him in such circumstances would only make him a martyr. The BNP have got enough publicity from this case as it is. I have no doubts that Mr Griffin has tried to stir up racial hatred- but I dont think this can be proved from a legal standpoint. To call Islam 'a wicked, vicious religion' is an insensitive thing to do, but should be within legal boundries.

As for the other guy (Mark Collet) I think there is a case to punish him for telling BNP activists to 'show ethnics the door'. To me that is incitement to violence.



What really disgusted me was when the BNP started a campaign to 'Stand Up For Christian Values'. Then included a picture of the cross therefore invoking the name of Christ. To me this is blasphemy and takes the Lords name in vain.

 

[Kehaar]

Griffin is at least guilty of promoting intolerence and has no qualms about fostering ill feeling toward non-whites/asylum seekers/Jews etc.

Griffin doesn't believe the Holocaust happened, makes anti semitic comments: "smoking as much as an Auschwitz chimney" and when speaking of a fellow MP who reported him for inciting racial hatred: "whose only claim to fame is that two of his parents died in the Holocaust."

Theres also the party policy on repatriation, although not no longer compulsary under Griffins lead, is no less encouraged. They'll even give you a 'homeward-bound grant' to help you on your way. Generous as ever. The BNP is also opposed to interracial relationships because ethnic diversity should be maintained (although not in as many words).

Griffin is better at manipulating both the media and public than his predecessor was, but that doesn't mean the BNP are any different at the core. They're just better at hiding it now.

As far as Mark Collet goes, there are many BNP members with a criminal history, at least according to the Panorama site.

It looks like Nick Griffin and Mark Collet are going to win their case and escape punishment.

To some extent I am glad about this. Dont get me wrong I hate the BNP. They disgust me! However the case against Griffin isnt strong enough and to imprison him in such circumstances would only make him a martyr. The BNP have got enough publicity from this case as it is. I have no doubts that Mr Griffin has tried to stir up racial hatred- but I dont think this can be proved from a legal standpoint. To call Islam 'a wicked, vicious religion' is an insensitive thing to do, but should be within legal boundries.

As for the other guy (Mark Collet) I think there is a case to punish him for telling BNP activists to 'show ethnics the door'. To me that is incitement to violence.



What really disgusted me was when the BNP started a campaign to 'Stand Up For Christian Values'. Then included a picture of the cross therefore invoking the name of Christ. To me this is blasphemy and takes the Lords name in vain.

 

[Bonhoffer]

Griffin is a moral idiot, but he is tactically very clever. If I understand correctly hes a law graduate. Therefore he knows exactly how far he can push things and remain within the law. He will push the law as far as he can and when someone objects to his activity he'll spin it into properganda. Hes very good at this game. You dont have to have a degree to see that hes no good, but hes extremely difficult one to nail!
He claims that hes only against the politically correct government multicultural and immigration policy and not black and Asian people personally. However if he was genuine with this he would choose his words more carefully and always act to avoid stirring aggravation. Instead he feeds off all this negative feeling and does his best to stir up more hatred.

I do hope that one day he goes to jail for a very long time. However it has be for something that not even the biggest liberatarian can excuse and the evidence must be solid!
But dont worry, even if the law cant touch him, I know someone who can. One day Mr Griffin will have to face God!! And he wont be able to smuggle into the Kingdom of God in the back of the lorry!

 

[Cordelia]

Griffin is at least guilty of promoting intolerence and has no qualms about fostering ill feeling toward non-whites/asylum seekers/Jews etc.

Griffin doesn't believe the Holocaust happened, makes anti semitic comments: "smoking as much as an Auschwitz chimney" and when speaking of a fellow MP who reported him for inciting racial hatred: "whose only claim to fame is that two of his parents died in the Holocaust."

Theres also the party policy on repatriation, although not no longer compulsary under Griffins lead, is no less encouraged. They'll even give you a 'homeward-bound grant' to help you on your way. Generous as ever. The BNP is also opposed to interracial relationships because ethnic diversity should be maintained (although not in as many words).

Griffin is better at manipulating both the media and public than his predecessor was, but that doesn't mean the BNP are any different at the core. They're just better at hiding it now.

As far as Mark Collet goes, there are many BNP members with a criminal history, at least according to the Panorama site.

This is all important. I don't believe that "stirring up hatred" can be taken too lightly, ever! As somebody with a mixed-race younger brother who's been the target of racist taunts and violence, I live in terror of the effects of hatred and I want to see these people restrained and punished as harshly as possible. I was proud to see students from my university speaking out against the BNP while Griffin's trial went on. The things he's said - racist comments made against those of other races and faiths - isn't 'free speech' - it's pure, irresponsible evil.

 

[Bonhoffer]

This is all important. I don't believe that "stirring up hatred" can be taken too lightly, ever! As somebody with a mixed-race younger brother who's been the target of racist taunts and violence, I live in terror of the effects of hatred and I want to see these people restrained and punished as harshly as possible. I was proud to see students from my university speaking out against the BNP while Griffin's trial went on. The things he's said - racist comments made against those of other races and faiths - isn't 'free speech' - it's pure, irresponsible evil.

It is, but can one prove it in a court of law?

 

[meebs]

My worry is that i know how wrong the BNP are but i just dont know how to argue/debate against them. The reason i am concerned is they are actually growing in popularity in my town

Ive been told not too - in case they try smash the glass/parents car of my house or beat me up. How the heck are people like me suppose to make a stand against them?

Last thing i wanna see here in this town is more people falling to ignorance

 

[Bonhoffer]

My worry is that i know how wrong the BNP are but i just dont know how to argue/debate against them. The reason i am concerned is they are actually growing in popularity in my town

Ive been told not too - in case they try smash the glass/parents car of my house or beat me up. How the heck are people like me suppose to make a stand against them?

Last thing i wanna see here in this town is more people falling to ignorance

I understand exactly how you feel! And unfortunately some of the opposition groups are so incompotent their work actually ends up helping the BNP! For example Anti-Nazi League made the BNP look like champions of democracy when they tried to expel the BNP youth leader from university. So much anti-racism work can be counterproductive like this. Its important that we think hard about our strategy and how to connect with those most likely to be tempted by the BNP- in order words the peed off white working class.

I would advise you to pray about it- but you have an atheist symbol!

Come up with something clever and different. Dont nessiscarily align yourself with a current opposition group. In fact I know a way of opposing them without even revealing who you are. Write a letter to the local paper and dont give your name and address!
Everyone knows the accusations of racism against them- so find something else objectionable about them or something you think many people will disagree with. This could even include criticising their economic policy or the fact that they strongly support the reintroduction of the death penalty! This approach will bring a freshness to the debate and show that the BNP are objectionable on many fronts. You need to convince the white working class that the BNP have nothing to offer them.

The BNP are very clever, so their opposition must be even cleverer!

 

[meebs]

I understand exactly how you feel! And unfortunately some of the opposition groups are so incompotent their work actually ends up helping the BNP! For example Anti-Nazi League made the BNP look like champions of democracy when they tried to expel the BNP youth leader from university. So much anti-racism work can be counterproductive like this. Its important that we think hard about our strategy and how to connect with those most likely to be tempted by the BNP- in order words the peed off white working class.

I would advise you to pray about it- but you have an atheist symbol!

Come up with something clever and different. Dont nessiscarily align yourself with a current opposition group. In fact I know a way of opposing them without even revealing who you are. Write a letter to the local paper and dont give your name and address!
Everyone knows the accusations of racism against them- so find something else objectionable about them or something you think many people will disagree with. This could even include criticising their economic policy or the fact that they strongly support the reintroduction of the death penalty! This approach will bring a freshness to the debate and show that the BNP are objectionable on many fronts. You need to convince the white working class that the BNP have nothing to offer them.

The BNP are very clever, so their opposition must be even cleverer!

i like your idea!

they campaign more in /springsummer time.. so im sure i have time to read and think..

yeah im sure that happened while i was at Leeds university the expulsion of the youth leader.

 

[Bonhoffer]

i like your idea!

they campaign more in /springsummer time.. so im sure i have time to read and think..

yeah im sure that happened while i was at Leeds university the expulsion of the youth leader.

I was at Leeds University!!!!
2002-2005

When were you there and what did you study?

Also what church did you go to in Leeds?
(WOOPS!!! I forgot you were an atheist!)

 

[meebs]

I was at Leeds University!!!!
2002-2005

When were you there and what did you study?

Also what church did you go to in Leeds?
(WOOPS!!! I forgot you were an atheist!)

i was there for a year at 2001 - 2002

I studies Physics but had to drop out (im a student again now - Hull university at scarborough).

wasnt always an atheist

in Leeds i attended St Johns Baptists church (in Headingly i think). it was such a nice place. Most welcoming church ive been to!

Ive just found out. My local paper prefers to print your name and address unless you have good reason to remian anonymous. I think id have to talk to the editor before i gave them the letter!

(i wonder why that is? )

aww why do you keep rubbing in the atheist thing? i can be a decent person..

 

[non-religious]

As a person of mixed race myself, I can see how someone like me would be the exact kind of person that the BNP would really despise. I do find their comments repugnant and deeply offensive, but they were aquitted on 6 charges by a group of their peers in a court of law. They have every right to voice their concerns and as unpalatable as their views are, they have every right to articulate them. What I find more worrying about the BNP is the appeal that they are beginning to have in certain communities, especially up north. I watched a snippet of Donald McIntyre's documentary on 5news last night (documentary to be shown on Monday night) exposing the BNP and focusing on their campaign methods. This organisation is now using music to try and reach the youth with their message. They are blatantly standing around outside certain schools and handing out free white pride propaganda, in the form of CDs. Apparantly there is an increase in the young membership of the BNP and the documentary shows footage of a concert in England with some very young children singing racist songs to a large crowd of skinheads.
As much as I hate the BNP I can see why their support is growing. People are very disenfranchised and the BNP targets specific communities and works their hateful propaganda to what seems good effect. Immigration, Islam, multi-faith/culture, crime etc... are all issues that they focus on in order to gain a foot into the door of peoples prejudice. Perhaps the failure of the mainstream parties to address and debate these issues has allowed the BNP the opportunity to increase their number. I really do feel for those minorities in the communities where the BNP have a strong presence.

 

[ScottishJohn]

I am pleased that these people have not been found guilty under the law. Not because I agree with them, I cannot stand them. They are another group that test the limits when you consider that we are commanded to love them. I am pleased because infringing what they can say is wrong. In fact we should encourage them to stand on a platform and tell us exactly how they feel, because if they did, noone other than people like them would consider voting for them noone would consider them a serious political party. I think there are already laws in place which would allow us to put many of them behind bars for their activity and links to Combat 18 if this had been properly investigated. These people are neo nazis and combat 18 are their brownshirts. Arrest them and prosecute them for their crimes, do not gag them. As soon as we set a precedent for silencing those we disagree with we open the door to that same process being used on any one of us, which is what we are currently seeing in the government attempts to bring in the incitement to religious hatred bill.

We hate what they say, but the whole point is that we will uphold their right to say it, and our right to demonstrate how hateful and false it is.

 

[Bonhoffer]

Ive just found out. My local paper prefers to print your name and address unless you have good reason to remian anonymous. I think id have to talk to the editor before i gave them the letter!

I think the fact that you could be firebombed is a good enough reason!
You could always lie and make up a name. I couldnt do this because I wouldnt want to be judged by God for lying. But for you it wouldnt matter

aww why do you keep rubbing in the atheist thing? i can be a decent person..

by human standards maybe.

 

[meebs]

I think the fact that you could be firebombed is a good enough reason!
You could always lie and make up a name. I couldnt do this because I wouldnt want to be judged by God for lying. But for you it wouldnt matter


by human standards maybe.

hee hee

to be honest for me in all my sinfull ways... i hate lying. call me old fashioned but i like to be honest (and im abad lyer!). i could just give my initials

thanks for the advice9did you know of saint johns church? )

 

[The-Doctor]

There have announced the both men will face retrial over other charges.

 

[Bonhoffer]

hee hee

to be honest for me in all my sinfull ways... i hate lying. call me old fashioned but i like to be honest (and im abad lyer!). i could just give my initials

thanks for the advice9did you know of saint johns church? )

heard of it. thats about it! I should know more as I've been involved in a student dominated church in Leeds myself.
I went to Gateway church for a year and a half. Thats full of students.

 

[Turn'D-OuT-DiffurnT]

It's a relief to see a few people defending free-speech for those whom they sharply disagree with and may even hold in contempt. I applaud you, but I must say the totalitarian mindset of the majority of posters here that would say political speech that is unpopular at the moment or with which they disagree, should be illegal and punishable by fines and/or imprisonment, is very troubling indeed. I'm not British, but it seems to me that there is currently a climate of hyper (and hyperventilating) political-correctness.

Some words to ponder:

"Speech codes...are nothing more and nothing less than thought control by those who want no competition against the indoctrination that they are promoting under the guise of education.

The particular issue at any given time might be race, sex, or any number of other subjects on which there is a politically correct line -- from which dissent will not be tolerated. Disagreements about policies like affirmative action or gay marriage can be redefined as showing hatred for minorities, gays, or women -- and therefore as creating a "hostile environment" for them, impairing their learning.

Speech codes are meant to silence any criticism of the brainwashing and double standards that schools and colleges [and gov't] have increasingly practiced. That is what it is all about." ~ Thomas Sowell

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3750

 

[Martin^^]

...the totalitarian mindset of the majority of posters here that would say political speech that is unpopular at the moment or with which they disagree, should be illegal and punishable by fines and/or imprisonment, is very troubling indeed.

There is no movement here to outlaw any form of political speech. What is illegal is the use of political platforms to stir up racial hatred and violence.
Opinions, however ignorant and hateful, are not harmful. However, the extreme right are not interested in gaining votes or promoting ideas. Their intent is to create suspicion and breed violence. People are most susceptible to the message of fascism when they are fearful. If racial tensions in deprived areas can put the white population in a state of fear, some are more likely to turn to fascist parties who promise to ethnically cleanse the country.
The restrictions on free speech are not a form of totalitarianism, they are more like an inoculation against it.
Hitler siezed power by democratic means (covertly assisted by his SS thugs) and then abolished the institutions he had used to gain control. These laws are there to protect British democracy against cancerous growths like the BNP employing the same strategy.

 

[Turn'D-OuT-DiffurnT]

There is no movement here to outlaw any form of political speech. What is illegal is the use of political platforms to stir up racial hatred and violence.

Martin, if you'll forgive me, that sounds like a distinction without a difference. Political speech ok, but political platforms that "stir up racial hatred and violence" NOT ok. The problem is...who gets to decide which is which and by what criteria? The answer is invariably the government, which is then in the game of divining the intent and motive behind every voiced idea and opinion. But how do they know that just because something irritates an ethnic group or religion (let's say Blacks or Muslims) that it qualifies as inciting hatred or violence as opposed to legitimate criticism? They don't, but because incitement, hatred and violence are such vague concepts and can be defined pretty much however they want, when given that terrible power they will define it down to the lowest common denominator and impose draconian restrictions on speech that we would expect to find in some banana republic, but not in a modern Western country like Britain.

Opinions, however ignorant and hateful, are not harmful.

But judging from your words above, it sounds as though you think voicing such opinions should be illegal?

However, the extreme right are not interested in gaining votes or promoting ideas. Their intent is to create suspicion and breed violence.

How do you know? This gets back to what I said above. Is it really your job (or the government's) to decide that a person or group is up to no damn good and therefore has no right to free speech?

People are most susceptible to the message of fascism when they are fearful. If racial tensions in deprived areas can put the white population in a state of fear, some are more likely to turn to fascist parties who promise to ethnically cleanse the country.

But if you are unafraid and able to think and decide for yourself, why should others not be afforded the same opportunity?

The restrictions on free speech...

Wait a minute, what restrictions? First you said there's no movement to outlaw any form of political speech, but now you're telling me that restrictions are already in place.

...are not a form of totalitarianism, they are more like an inoculation against it.

I think they're the quintessence of totalitarianism.

Hitler siezed power by democratic means (covertly assisted by his SS thugs) and then abolished the institutions he had used to gain control.

I'm not sure what your point is. We should have a sham form of democracy where the people vote, but the government dictates what people can talk about publicly?

These laws are there to protect British democracy against cancerous growths like the BNP employing the same strategy.

It seems to me that such a cure is worse than the disease.

 

[non-religious]

[Martin^^]However, the extreme right are not interested in gaining votes or promoting ideas. Their intent is to create suspicion and breed violence.

I'm not so sure about this statement. I would argue that gaining votes and promoting ideas are incredibly important to the extreme right. The BNP are a small party, but their hope is to become a more mainstream and appealing alternative to what they consider the weak and politically correct government we now have.