Blood sacrifice...

[inquiring mind]

Is there a discernible reason behind requiring blood sacrifice to atone for sin?

We see it in the OT, with blood of all manner of animals being use as propitiation for sin, and in the NT with the idea of Jesus being a substitutional sacrifice on the cross, but....why? Is there are rational behind the use of blood which we can discern?

On the face of it, blood sacrifice looks pretty barbaric (especially when it uses the blood of an innocent to protect someone guilty - that is a strange definition of Justice at the very least) so I'm wondering if there is a rational behind the specific requirement for it that we can find in scripture...

And please, not "God said so" arguments. I'm not doubting what is written. I'm looking to understand the reasoning behind that choice of process.

“Why blood sacrifice” is right up there with “explain the Trinity” when it comes to perplexing mental exercises for many Christians. Oh, people can point to Bible quotes, such as Leviticus 17:11, but that doesn’t help when you’re setting in a worship service listening to the congregation sing about precious blood in a mesmerized state, and the picture of a chanting heathen crowd urging-on some kind of witch doctor as he cuts out the heart of a living victim for sacrifice comes to mind.

I don’t know, but somehow I believe the idea of sacrifice got ingrained in the ancients and stayed there right up to the writing of the New Testament (and even later in some parts of the world), which used the blood sacrifice of Jesus (a willing innocent... big difference) to explain away the idea. I’m not doubting what was written either, I just prefer to think about it in terms of Jesus loved us, was willing to die (give up his life) for us to demonstrate it and atone for us according to God’s plan, and try to move on from the fixation on the idea of a blood sacrifice. These are difficult questions to answer in today’s world; I pray I haven’t said something wrong.

 

[section9+1]

Blood is life. Blood is everything. Jesus said drink my blood and belong to him. Avoid eating animal blood or you will be as an animal. Blood is what you are and who you are. It is life and identity. To shed blood is to shed life. And sin requires death of someone. It is a bloody religion and necessarily so.

 

[Inkfingers]

“Why blood sacrifice” is right up there with “explain the Trinity” when it comes to perplexing mental exercises for many Christians. Oh, people can point to Bible quotes, such as Leviticus 17:11, but that doesn’t help when you’re setting in a worship service listening to the congregation sing about precious blood in a mesmerized state, and the picture of a chanting heathen crowd urging-on some kind of witch doctor as he cuts out the heart of a living victim for sacrifice comes to mind.

I don’t know, but somehow I believe the idea of sacrifice got ingrained in the ancients and stayed there right up to the writing of the New Testament (and even later in some parts of the world), which used the blood sacrifice of Jesus (a willing innocent... big difference) to explain away the idea. I’m not doubting what was written either, I just prefer to think about it in terms of Jesus loved us, was willing to die (give up his life) for us to demonstrate it and atone for us according to God’s plan, and try to move on from the fixation on the idea of a blood sacrifice. These are difficult questions to answer in today’s world; I pray I haven’t said something wrong.

What does that say about us though, if we cheer to see an innocent executed in our place?

And what does it say about a judge, if their idea of justice is killing innocents in order to rescue the guilty? Does that not strike people as being a twisted perversion of justice?

 

[συνείδησις]

Doesn't that strike you as just a little unjust - that the innocent are destroyed to protect the guilty.

That's GOD's grace - the just one willingly dies for the unjust.

 

[inquiring mind]

What does that say about us though, if we cheer to see an innocent executed in our place?

I prefer to think most Christians would answer by saying it's rejoicing because they were loved that much by a "willing" victim, not cheering.

And what does it say about a judge, if their idea of justice is killing innocents in order to rescue the guilty? Does that not strike people as being a twisted perversion of justice?

It would... that's why God did it Himself.

 

[συνείδησις]

And what does it say about a judge, if their idea of justice is killing innocents in order to rescue the guilty? Does that not strike people as being a twisted perversion of justice?

The judge is perfectly just because he's judging according to the covenant which effectuates the exchange.

 

[Inkfingers]

That's GOD's grace - the just one willingly dies for the unjust.

Do you ever think about what that means though? God requires us to be Just (it's in the Noahide code) but sacrificing an innocent for the benefit of the guilty is categorically unjust. Imagine today child abusers being let off the hook if someone came forward to be punished in their place.

Killing the innocent to protect the guilty is not justice.

It is the polar opposite of justice.

 

[Southernscotty]

Do you ever think about what that means though? God requires us to be Just (it's in the Noahide code) but sacrificing an innocent for the benefit of the guilty is categorically unjust. Imagine today child abusers being let off the hook if someone came forward to be punished in their place.

Killing the innocent to protect the guilty is not justice.

It is the polar opposite of justice.

That just shows the love of that innocent, He was willing to die for us... That is Agape love.

 

[Southernscotty]

There is your difference, Jesus was willing to take our punishment.

 

[Inkfingers]

There is your difference, Jesus was willing to take our punishment.

That is irrelevant to points I am making.

What kind of personal celebrates an innocent going into execution in their place? Think on that.

What kind of court punishes the innocent to protect the guilty? Think on that.

Answer THOSE SPECIFIC points.

 

[dqhall]

Are you saying that blood sacrifice was an error by Israel?

Jesus told Israel better than I could, "But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless." Matthew 12:7 (WEB)

 

[συνείδησις]

Do you ever think about what that means though? God requires us to be Just (it's in the Noahide code) but sacrificing an innocent for the benefit of the guilty is categorically unjust. Imagine today child abusers being let off the hook if someone came forward to be punished in their place.

The Noahide code is not from GOD, so whatever point you're trying to make using that as a premise is lost on me.

 

[συνείδησις]

The judge is perfectly just because he's judging according to the covenant which effectuates the exchange.

To give further meaning to this, notice what the word that is translated reconciliation (Romans 5:11, 2 Corinthians 5:18) means.

G2643 καταλλαγή katallage (kat-al-lag-ay') n.
1. an exchange

Our sins were imputed to Christ and his righteousness is imputed to us via the covenant.

 

[συνείδησις]

What kind of court punishes the innocent to protect the guilty? Think on that.

The kind of court where the one judging is the one who willingly sacrificed himself. It's called grace.

 

[Inkfingers]

The kind of court where the one judging is the one who willingly sacrificed himself. It's called grace.

No.

To have an innocent punished in order to protect a guilty person is not grace. It's injustice.

 

[Ancient of Days]

That is irrelevant to points I am making.

What kind of personal celebrates an innocent going into execution in their place? Think on that.

What kind of court punishes the innocent to protect the guilty? Think on that.

Answer THOSE SPECIFIC points.

Hebrews 9:22 - And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

You keep using the word "innocent" Nothing is innocent in a fallen world. Its all cursed because of the actions of Adam and Eve. The ONLY thing that is innocent that has been in this world since the fall is the actual blood of Christ and Christ himself. But even in the flesh he said "18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

"What kind of court punishes the innocent to protect the guilty? Think on that."

So why did you nail Jesus to the cross then? He was innocent but you killed him. So you killed and crucified the innocent and would have in your flesh expect to stand before the living God and be guiltless? It proves that our flesh and spirit are in contradiction to one another.

Hebrews 8:8-13 King James Version (KJV)

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

In summary:

God creates perfect world and human beings, man destroys it and rebels against God.

God provides a way to reconcile OUR mistakes, WE kill and humiliate his gift to us.

The real question should be: Why does God keep giving us GRACE when we truly deserve DEATH?

I nailed Jesus to the cross, I am guilty! Why did he sacrifice his blood to cover us when destruction is what we deserve. As said before all life is in the blood, at the end of the day God demands it back since it is rightfully his in the first place and without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

Chew on this verse: Gen, 4:10 "And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground."

That verse is extremely literal! The blood cries out to God! Meditate on that...

 

[cfyahoo08]

1 John 4:19 - We love him, because he first loved us.

SIMILITUDE

si-mil'-i-tud: In the King James Version means either "an exact facsimile" (Psalm 106:20 the King James Version, the Revised Version (British and American) "likeness"; Romans 5:14, etc.), or else "the form itself" (Numbers 12:8 Deuteronomy 4:12, 15, 16 for temunah, "form" (so the Revised Version (British and American))); compare LIKENESS. the English Revised Version has retained the word in 2 Chronicles 4:3 Daniel 10:16 (the American Standard Revised Version "likeness"), while the English Revised Version and the American Standard Revised Version have used "similitudes" in Hosea 12:10 (damah, "be like"). The meaning is "I have inspired the prophets to speak parables."

 

[1 John 4:1]

Is there a discernible reason behind requiring blood sacrifice to atone for sin?

We see it in the OT, with blood of all manner of animals being use as propitiation for sin, and in the NT with the idea of Jesus being a substitutional sacrifice on the cross, but....why? Is there are rational behind the use of blood which we can discern?

On the face of it, blood sacrifice looks pretty barbaric (especially when it uses the blood of an innocent to protect someone guilty - that is a strange definition of Justice at the very least) so I'm wondering if there is a rational behind the specific requirement for it that we can find in scripture...

And please, not "God said so" arguments. I'm not doubting what is written. I'm looking to understand the reasoning behind that choice of process.

Here's my explanation. Blood sacrifice was part of the Hebrew culture; they made covenants (promises) by cutting animals. God plays along with this and makes a covenant with Abraham by walking through the pieces of animals that Abraham had cut: Genesis 15:17 I think part of the reason God was playing along is that he knew he would eventually have to suffer to prove that he loved us, and to prove that he takes responsibility for his creation. So he had to be willing to endure the consequences of his creation of good and evil. ( Isaiah 45:7 ) Blood sacrifice fits this motif of suffering being required: that life was required to establish and nullify covenants. Jeremiah 34:18 For more info see: https://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-did-jesus-have-to-die.8064521/page-5#post-72681004

 

[Inkfingers]

So why did you nail Jesus to the cross then? He was innocent but you killed him. So you killed and crucified the innocent and would have in your flesh expect to stand before the living God and be guiltless?

When did I nail Jesus to a cross?

You have written a long post but none of it answered my two points.

 

[Inkfingers]

Here's my explanation. Blood sacrifice was part of the Hebrew culture; they made covenants by cutting animals. God plays along with this and makes a covenant with Abraham by walking through the pieces of animals that Abraham had cut: Genesis 15:17 I think part of the reason God was playing along is that he knew he would eventually have to suffer to prove that he loved us, and to prove that he takes responsibility for his creation. So he had to be willing to endure the consequences of his creation of good and evil. ( Isaiah 45:7 ) For more info see: https://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-did-jesus-have-to-die.8064521/page-5#post-72681004

So the nailing of Christ was to appease the expectations of bloodthirsty Hebrews who expect blood sacrifice but that specific act has no particular relevance to the rest of us (our salvation being elsewhere in Jesus' work)?

I can see where you are coming from, but it still does not answer my point about what kind of person celebrates an innocent killed in their place and what kind of court uses the innocent to protect the guilty...