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- Thread starter Jon_
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Great. I have to tell you, though, the refutation of the idea you have expressed is right at the top of my outline. The way I have it laid out, I first discuss the laws of logic and show their application and validity from the Scriptures. I expound upon man's rational nature and its intellectual and moral necessity. After that, I cover the same topics as pertains to God. One of my arguments is that God's logic is that same as our logic and that God is true by virtue of his perfect rationality. That is, saying that God is extra-logical or above logic is saying something nonsensical.mannysee said:
Soli Deo Gloria
Jon
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M
mannysee
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Ouch!
Jon, you've cut me with your dagger!
My thought in my post was that it IS possible for man to be rationally incorrect in holding a certain postion. I was thinking of a morally irrational argument, or a logically immoral position.
e.g. I may say that my logic brings me to a conclusion which most people may abhor (being a moral issue). Nevertheless, in MY mind, i accept that i have used logic to arrive at my argument.
Everything you said above, i agree with, wholeheartedly.
I hope i have made myself somewhat clearer. If not, it's back to English 101 for me.
Jon, you've cut me with your dagger!My thought in my post was that it IS possible for man to be rationally incorrect in holding a certain postion. I was thinking of a morally irrational argument, or a logically immoral position.
e.g. I may say that my logic brings me to a conclusion which most people may abhor (being a moral issue). Nevertheless, in MY mind, i accept that i have used logic to arrive at my argument.
Everything you said above, i agree with, wholeheartedly.
I hope i have made myself somewhat clearer. If not, it's back to English 101 for me.
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JimfromOhio
Life of Trials :)
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mannysee said:I hope i have made myself somewhat clearer. If not, it's back to English 101 for me.
Don't worry.. my english is really bad too lol
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Ohhh, I get it!! My mistake. I must've misread the meaning in your post. Maybe I'm just too used to people saying, "God is above logic." "Haven't you ever read Van Til, Bavinck, or Frame?" they ask. To which I respond, "Of course I have. And I disagree with them almost categorically."mannysee said:Ouch!
My thought in my post was that it IS possible for man to be rationally incorrect in holding a certain postion. I was thinking of a morally irrational argument, or a logically immoral position.
e.g. I may say that my logic brings me to a conclusion which most people may abhor (being a moral issue). Nevertheless, in MY mind, i accept that i have used logic to arrive at my argument.
Everything you said above, i agree with, wholeheartedly.
I hope i have made myself somewhat clearer. If not, it's back to English 101 for me.
Well, that was slightly tangental.
Anyway, you should like this series, then, Manny. One of the things I address is the problem with irrationality, both intellectual and moral. Included in this is the noetic (which means pertaining to the mind) effects of sin. Because of mankind's radical depravity, it seems we are all too prone to thinking irrationally every now and then. It happens to everyone. And one of the things I want to show is how this irrationality necessarily leads to problems.
The Puritans provided us with an excellent example of how one might strive for moral purity in daily living. I believe that thinking rationally is a key to that. That is, correctly interpreting God's law, promises, and doctrines leads to a pure life. It is only when we make the illogical choice of not to obey God that we find ourselves in a mess.
I'll post an outline of the series, so everyone can get an idea of what I plan to cover.
Soli Deo Gloria
Jon
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mannysee
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yes, the effect of sin, was my platform.
I'll be looking forward to your outline.
I'll be looking forward to your outline.
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- Jan 30, 2005
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Here is the outline from which I will be working. It is subject to revision, but the general approach should follow what is set down here.
Topic #1: The Laws of Logic
1) The Law of Identity (Proof text: Ex. 3:14)
2) The Law of Contradiction (Proof text: 1 Co. 1:18)
3) The Law of Excluded Middle (Proof text: Mt. 12:30)
Topic #2: A Defense of Rationality
1) Man is rational
a) The rationality of man is intellectually necessary
i) Advantages of rational thought (The successes it causes; virtue of rationality)
ii) Problems of irrational thought (The failures it causes; impossibility of irrationality)
iii) Language requires rationality (True must mean true and not false)
b) The rationality of man is morally necessary
i) Advantages of rational morality (Honesty, trustworthiness, obedience)
ii) Problems of irrational morality (Lies, theft, disobedience)
iii) Obedience requires rationality (We must know right [true] from wrong [false])
2) God is rational
a) The rationality of God is intellectually necessary
i) God is truth. Truth is rational.
-- Perfect rationality is necessarily true ("True" itself means "rationally true")
-- Irrationality can never be true (If true can mean false, it cannot be true)
b) The rationality of God is morally necessary
i) The Law (The Law cannot mean "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not" at the same time)
ii) The Gospel (We cannot be "justified by faith" and "not justified by faith" at the same time)
Topic #3: The Biblical Concept of Truth
1) God the Father is Truth (Proof text: Dt. 32:4)
2) God the Son is Truth (Proof text: Jn. 14:6)
3) God the Holy Spirit is Truth (Proof text: Jn. 16:13)
4) What is true?
a) Rationalism (pure logic) is not true
i) It begins with a false premise (human understanding)
ii) It fails to justify itself
b) Empiricism is not true
i) The senses are inherently flawed
ii) It is impossible to prove valid inference from sensation
iii) Temporality is relatively irrelevant
-- Our battle is not with flesh and blood (Proof text: Eph. 6:12)
-- The dominion command is a divine command given before the decree to work the earth (Proof text: Gen. 1:28, cf. 3:17)
iv) The failure of empirical apologetics
v) A refutation of some common "biblical arguments" for sensation
-- Mt. 23:42 (Clearly a parable)
-- etc. (Anyone want to suggest some others?)
c) The Bible is true
i) Sola Scriptura
-- All content of Scripture is the infallible, inerrant Word of God, the sole rule of faith and practice
-- What is knowable is that which is expressly set down in the Scriptures or that which can be validly deduced from them
ii) "Don't you have to read your Bible?"
-- This question doesn't really need an answer because we assume the Bible is true, we don't prove it
-- We have already shown sensation never gives us truth
-- Nevertheless, we have an answer (Section on the doctrine of illumination)
iii) "What is the Bible?" (Textual Criticisms)
-- The Bible is the books of the Old (39) and New (27) Testaments
-- Textual Criticism fails to address the argument
.. The Word is preserved by the Holy Spirit (Section on doctrine of the canon)
.. The meaning of the Word is unchanged
>> The Bible is not the Bible because it is a written document, it is the Bible because it is the Word of God
.. "I am still skeptical"
>> The Holy Spirit assures us of the authenticity of the canon (Section on the doctrine of assurance)
.. Regeneration and faith are required to believe the Bible (Proof texts: Jn. 6:63, 1 Co. 2:14)
Topic #4: Christian Epistemology
1) Epistemology primer
a) The criteria of knowledge
i) Belief
ii) Justification (of belief)
iii) Truth
b) Therefore, rationalism produces no knowledge
c) Therefore, empiricism produces no knowledge
d) Therefore, only the Bible produces knowledge
2) Christianity starts with the Bible
a) The Bible is all that is true because it is the only justification for knowledge
b) Belief in the infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture is utterly essential
3) Problems with compromising
a) Compromising the Bible compromises Christianity
b) Nothing can be added or taken away from the Bible without dire consequences
c) We should not think we can obtain knowledge outside of the Bible
4) The place of sensation and science
a) We do denounce sensation or science, only put them in their place. Insofar as they are useful, they are beneficial. They allow for practical judgments. The command to subdue the earth assumes their use. But they never yield truth, only opinion. They are subjective.
b) All extra-biblical thinking and activity is a matter of human judgment. These judgments have a rightful place in our interactions. Much of the Bible assumes their use. We should always use them in subjection to the Scriptures.
Conclusion: Therfore, the Bible alone is true, and is the sole basis for all knowledge
If anyone has anything they want to add to that, something that they would like to see come up for consideration, comments, or questions, just let me know.
Soli Deo Gloria
Jon
Topic #1: The Laws of Logic
1) The Law of Identity (Proof text: Ex. 3:14)
2) The Law of Contradiction (Proof text: 1 Co. 1:18)
3) The Law of Excluded Middle (Proof text: Mt. 12:30)
Topic #2: A Defense of Rationality
1) Man is rational
a) The rationality of man is intellectually necessary
i) Advantages of rational thought (The successes it causes; virtue of rationality)
ii) Problems of irrational thought (The failures it causes; impossibility of irrationality)
iii) Language requires rationality (True must mean true and not false)
b) The rationality of man is morally necessary
i) Advantages of rational morality (Honesty, trustworthiness, obedience)
ii) Problems of irrational morality (Lies, theft, disobedience)
iii) Obedience requires rationality (We must know right [true] from wrong [false])
2) God is rational
a) The rationality of God is intellectually necessary
i) God is truth. Truth is rational.
-- Perfect rationality is necessarily true ("True" itself means "rationally true")
-- Irrationality can never be true (If true can mean false, it cannot be true)
b) The rationality of God is morally necessary
i) The Law (The Law cannot mean "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not" at the same time)
ii) The Gospel (We cannot be "justified by faith" and "not justified by faith" at the same time)
Topic #3: The Biblical Concept of Truth
1) God the Father is Truth (Proof text: Dt. 32:4)
2) God the Son is Truth (Proof text: Jn. 14:6)
3) God the Holy Spirit is Truth (Proof text: Jn. 16:13)
4) What is true?
a) Rationalism (pure logic) is not true
i) It begins with a false premise (human understanding)
ii) It fails to justify itself
b) Empiricism is not true
i) The senses are inherently flawed
ii) It is impossible to prove valid inference from sensation
iii) Temporality is relatively irrelevant
-- Our battle is not with flesh and blood (Proof text: Eph. 6:12)
-- The dominion command is a divine command given before the decree to work the earth (Proof text: Gen. 1:28, cf. 3:17)
iv) The failure of empirical apologetics
v) A refutation of some common "biblical arguments" for sensation
-- Mt. 23:42 (Clearly a parable)
-- etc. (Anyone want to suggest some others?)
c) The Bible is true
i) Sola Scriptura
-- All content of Scripture is the infallible, inerrant Word of God, the sole rule of faith and practice
-- What is knowable is that which is expressly set down in the Scriptures or that which can be validly deduced from them
ii) "Don't you have to read your Bible?"
-- This question doesn't really need an answer because we assume the Bible is true, we don't prove it
-- We have already shown sensation never gives us truth
-- Nevertheless, we have an answer (Section on the doctrine of illumination)
iii) "What is the Bible?" (Textual Criticisms)
-- The Bible is the books of the Old (39) and New (27) Testaments
-- Textual Criticism fails to address the argument
.. The Word is preserved by the Holy Spirit (Section on doctrine of the canon)
.. The meaning of the Word is unchanged
>> The Bible is not the Bible because it is a written document, it is the Bible because it is the Word of God
.. "I am still skeptical"
>> The Holy Spirit assures us of the authenticity of the canon (Section on the doctrine of assurance)
.. Regeneration and faith are required to believe the Bible (Proof texts: Jn. 6:63, 1 Co. 2:14)
Topic #4: Christian Epistemology
1) Epistemology primer
a) The criteria of knowledge
i) Belief
ii) Justification (of belief)
iii) Truth
b) Therefore, rationalism produces no knowledge
c) Therefore, empiricism produces no knowledge
d) Therefore, only the Bible produces knowledge
2) Christianity starts with the Bible
a) The Bible is all that is true because it is the only justification for knowledge
b) Belief in the infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture is utterly essential
3) Problems with compromising
a) Compromising the Bible compromises Christianity
b) Nothing can be added or taken away from the Bible without dire consequences
c) We should not think we can obtain knowledge outside of the Bible
4) The place of sensation and science
a) We do denounce sensation or science, only put them in their place. Insofar as they are useful, they are beneficial. They allow for practical judgments. The command to subdue the earth assumes their use. But they never yield truth, only opinion. They are subjective.
b) All extra-biblical thinking and activity is a matter of human judgment. These judgments have a rightful place in our interactions. Much of the Bible assumes their use. We should always use them in subjection to the Scriptures.
Conclusion: Therfore, the Bible alone is true, and is the sole basis for all knowledge
If anyone has anything they want to add to that, something that they would like to see come up for consideration, comments, or questions, just let me know.
Soli Deo Gloria
Jon
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- Jan 30, 2005
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This citation should read Mt. 24:32. Them typos like to creep in every so often.Jon_ said:
Soli Deo Gloria
Jon
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CoffeeSwirls
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That's definately powerful stuff. I'll see that the blogosphere becomes aware of the series when it begins.
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Cajun Huguenot
Cajun's for Christ
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I remember that famous quote from Star Trek: The Next Generation "I am Locutus of blog. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile." This is true so start blogging.
I too will be reading it.
In Christ,
Kenith
I too will be reading it.
In Christ,
Kenith
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Cajun Huguenot
Cajun's for Christ
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CoffeeSwirls said:
I hadn't had a look at your blog for quite a while, CoffeeSwirls. But I see I can still make the Prayer Carnival.
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CoffeeSwirls
snaps back wash after wash...
Thanks for bringing up the prayer carnival. It is not a common thing for people to pray on their blogs, but I have done so twice in the last two weeks, and it has been a very good thing, helping me form my thoughts to God in a way that honors Him. Anyone with a blog, or even who posts a prayer on a forum can be added!
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- Sep 5, 2005
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Jon_ said:
read it, loved it, shared it with a couple of reformed friends.
edie
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