Blameless in the Law

Minister Monardo · Jun 29, 2020

HARK! said:
Is there no longer any atonement for sin?

"I desire obedience not sacrifice."
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Minister Monardo · Jun 29, 2020

HARK! said:
Moses took a wrong turn and hit a rock; but two made it into the promised land. What do you make of that?

Need I remind you that Zacharias was stricken mute because of unbelief.
Hebrews 3:19. So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

HARK! · Jun 29, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
I don't understand what you feel needs to be "broken down". You seem to be assuming that an
adolescent cannot read Paul's letter to the Philippians and understand it. I disagree.

I'll ask again in unmistakable terms.

Minister Monardo said:
Are we concluding blameless=righteous here?

What are we concluding here?

HARK! · Jun 29, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
"I desire obedience not sacrifice."

YHWH said that long long before Yahshua came to Paul. Do you suppose Paul understood that in his blameless obedience?

HARK! · Jun 29, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Certainly there is more to it than that for the drunkard (who doesn't judge his drunken drinking buddies for drinking too much, who doesn't condemn his drunken drinking buddies for drinking too much, and who forgives his drunken drinking buddies for drinking too much, because he's too drunk to realize who drank the last of his booze) to enter the Kingdom. No?

HARK! · Jun 29, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Need I remind you that Zacharias was stricken mute because of unbelief.
Hebrews 3:19. So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Are you suggesting that Moses was in unbelief? it was his anger that kept him from the promised land. He struck the rock in anger at the lack of faith of those around him.

Minister Monardo · Jun 29, 2020

HARK! said:
I'll ask again in unmistakable terms.

What are we concluding here?

Your OP, from Philippians 3:6, concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
According to Paul:
Romans 10:
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
To my understanding, his conclusion is NO.

Minister Monardo · Jun 29, 2020

HARK! said:
Certainly there is more to it than that for the drunkard (who doesn't judge his drunken drinking buddies for drinking too much, who doesn't condemn his drunken drinking buddies for drinking too much, and who forgives his drunken drinking buddies for drinking too much, because he's too drunk to realize who drank the last of his booze) to enter the Kingdom. No?

This is the righteousness of God in Christ, not pagan, heathen behavior.

Minister Monardo · Jun 29, 2020

HARK! said:
Are you suggesting that Moses was in unbelief? it was his anger that kept him from the promised land. He struck the rock in anger at the lack of faith of those around him.

To be specific:
Psalm 106:
32 They angered Him also at the waters of strife,
So that it went ill with Moses on account of them;
33 Because they rebelled against His Spirit,
So that he spoke rashly with his lips.
Numbers 20:12. And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
Numbers 27:14. For ye rebelled against my commandment in the desert of Zin, in the strife of the congregation, to sanctify me at the water before their eyes: that is the water of Meribah in Kadesh in the wilderness of Zin.
1 Peter 3:15. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.
Matthew 12:37. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Minister Monardo · Jun 29, 2020

HARK! said:
YHWH said that long long before Yahshua came to Paul. Do you suppose Paul understood that in his blameless obedience?

He knew all too well.
1 Timothy 1:
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,
9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry,
13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I
obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Strong in Him · Jun 29, 2020

HARK! said:
How do you read it?

"to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless."

The righteousness that is IN law

Good job I am righteous in Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Carl Emerson · Jun 29, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

There is none righteous no not one...

At judgement if you try to justify yourself by claiming to have kept the law, you will be sorely disappointed...

Who would refuse the free gift of salvation, unless they pride themselves in self righteousness.

This is the beauty of the Gospel - that He fulfilled the law for us so that we would be released from an obligation we could never keep - why keep arguing about that ???????

Scott Husted · Jun 29, 2020

HARK! said:
Moses took a wrong turn and hit a rock; but two made it into the promised land. What do you make of that?

You can reason with God and become clean without the shedding of blood ...

Carl Emerson · Jun 29, 2020

Hebrews explains why...

It was unbelief that prevented them from entering...

Carl Emerson · Jun 29, 2020

HARK! said:
Are you suggesting that Moses was in unbelief? it was his anger that kept him from the promised land. He struck the rock in anger at the lack of faith of those around him.

No he struck the rock leaning on his own strength to release the water instead of trusting God could provide refreshment with a gentle tap... This was unbelief, as if God's strength and sure provision was not enough.

Dkh587 · Jun 29, 2020

@HARK!

I’m not so sure the law being spoken of there is the law of Moses/God..

God was trying to teach the Israelites how to be righteous by believing in him & obeying his law. He wasn’t teaching them to be self righteous(their own righteousness)

The Israelites tried to establish their own righteousness - God pleaded with them to believe in him & obey his law & he righteous. He didn’t teach them to be self righteous.

Romans 10:1-3

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

we all know they didn’t believe God & obey his law...

Does it make sense that God told the Israelites to trust him & obey his law, which would make them righteous, and then turn around and fault them and not accept them because they are obeying it, and are self righteous??

Pavel Mosko · Jun 29, 2020

HARK! said:
So Paul wasn't blameless in the law?

Sure he was blameless in the law, but the whole point of his writing is that was a moot point! He was persecuting the Church out of his fanatical devotion.... He was a zealot for the law but did not know Christ.

"But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."

Gregory Thompson · Jun 29, 2020

I get from the discussion here that the OP seems to think Paul was right before he became a Christian.

Pavel Mosko · Jun 29, 2020

Mathew 9
Then the disciples of John approached him and said, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast [much], but your disciples do not fast?”** for its fullness pulls away from the cloak and the tear gets worse. 17 People do not put new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise the skins burst, the wine spills out, and the skins are ruined. Rather, they pour new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.”

This passage had a lot to say not just in its immediate context (Jesus dealing with Jewish fasting traditions vs. his ministry), but in the greater context of moving from the New Covenant to the Old Covenant. It seems to me that some Hebrew roots people are trying to find ways to convince the rest of us gentile believers that we need to find ways of greasing up the old wine skin of Torah observance, compared to the one we have of simply following Christ.

And yes, I do not believe that Judaism, even Messianic Judaism had what it takes to have succeeded in missionizing the world compared to Christianity. If it had, by Providence, God certainly would have preserved it, rather than allowing it to die out for the last 1600 years or so (It did not come back officially until the 1950s).

Zao is life · Jun 29, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Php 3:6
in acrelation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in acrelation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.

(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

Who says it's impossible?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?

Context, context, context. Taking scripture out of the context of the passage it is written and out of the context of the rest of the Bible does not lend credit to your assertion.

Philippians 3:2-8
Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision party. For we are the circumcision who worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh; though I might also have confidence in the flesh (If any other thinks that he has reason to trust in the flesh, I more): I was circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews. As regards the Law, I was a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; regarding the righteousness in the Law, blameless.

But whatever things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. But no, rather, I also count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them to be dung, so that I may win Christ and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness, which is of the Law, but through the faith of Christ, the righteousness of God by faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death; if by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead.

Romans 7:12-13
So indeed the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.
Then has that which is good become death to me? Let it not be! But sin, that it might appear to be sin, working death in me by that which is good; in order that sin might become exceedingly sinful by the commandment.

Romans 4:15 because the Law works out wrath, for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,

Paul warns us not to have confidence in the flesh - and in the very scriptures you quote, when read in context, Paul equates placing emphasis on obedience to Torah with having confidence in the flesh:

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision party. For we are the circumcision who worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh;

though I might also have confidence in the flesh (If any other thinks that he has reason to trust in the flesh, I more): I was circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews. As regards the Law, I was a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; regarding the righteousness in the Law, blameless.

Blameless in the Law

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?

Yes. Only Yahshua can follow the example that he called us to follow.

No. Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

שמע

שמע

שמע

שמע

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Great is thy faithfulness

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency