• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Bitcoin.

MacFall

Agorist
Nov 24, 2007
12,726
1,171
Western Pennsylvania, USA
✟48,198.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
info here: What is Bitcoin? - We Use Coins

Anybody own any? If not, now's the time to get in. It's pretty much the only bull market around right now and boy is it bulling. Went from $3 to $8 in about 10 days.

Obviously it's pretty volatile, and it will probably climb for a long time and then dip low when people start cashing in. But I expect it to level out at a much higher price than it is now. I'm going to buy some tomorrow with money I was going to use to buy silver rounds; I figure it's a small risk and well worth taking. Unfortunately PayPal is freezing the accounts of anyone who uses their service to sell bitcoin, because they see it as competition, so I'm sending a money order to open an account at a bitcoin market. Otherwise I'd buy tonight.

Good way to keep pace with gold and silver, I think, at least for a while. I'll definitely be buying some bullion with some of what I make from the investment.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Allen1901

MacFall

Agorist
Nov 24, 2007
12,726
1,171
Western Pennsylvania, USA
✟48,198.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Why do you say that? The principle behind it is sound. What people are paying for is a medium of exchange that is inflation-proof. It's a service as much as it is a commodity - but a service provided by the whole community of its users. It's no different in principle from trading dollars for Euros or yen - except that it's not about to crash into oblivion like just about every government currency out there. And it never will, because once 21,000,000 "coins" have been created, it will be completely inflation proof and people will just start using smaller divisions of it to trade.

If you mean it's risky, yes, it is. At some point it will peak (likely at over $50), and people who buy at that time will lose money, as with any stock in a speculative bull market. But eventually it will level out, and at a price significantly higher than that at which it is going now. And the more people who hold it, the more distributed the profits and losses will be. I would recommend to those who do business online that they accept it as currency. That's its ultimate purpose, after all, and it's lower risk than just sending cash to a market host. I'm going to put my bitcoin wallet's public address on my website and blog.

And you can be pretty sure that bitcoin will outlive the US dollar. I've been moving my savings into precious metals and durable goods, but I'll see how things go in the next few weeks and possibly buy more bitcoin. Anything's better than Federal Reserve Notes at this point.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Allen1901
Upvote 0

Qyöt27

AMV Editor At Large
Apr 2, 2004
7,879
573
40
St. Petersburg, Florida
✟96,859.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It looks interesting, I can't really say much beyond that. I am reassured by the software being under the MIT license, though.

I wonder about competitive forces, however. The security model looks similar to other distributed networks, but I can't help but be skeptical about government agencies targeting it and attempting to compromise the system. Or simply making it illegal like has happened with other digital currency.
 
Upvote 0

ks777

Start singing
May 8, 2009
4,610
544
Other world
✟31,850.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
I don't know what to think about it, this is the first time I've heard of it. At first I thought that more electronic currency is the next step to us all being microchipped, all of a person's currency could be stored in the chip without the need for tangible money or anything that could possibly represent gold or silver. Governments could take money out from your chip at their will, whether it be tax or just because they can. If one was to step out of line, their chip could be turned off as a form of punishment so they can't buy food or shelter.

Then after closer inspection it seems as though the transaction doesn't go through banks or the government, but instead directly through a P2P program. That sounds like a positive, although if a 'coin' is just a file stored on your computer, what's stopping people from copying the file? I've tried to understand this but I still have no clue whatsoever about what it is or how it works. I do agree with your points about changing your investments from federal reserve pieces of paper to hard objects, but how is bitcoin safe? I read if someone steals your computer, your coins are gone. Even banks seem safer than that. I suppose someone could also break in and steal your precious metals and durable goods too... :(

I guess none of it really matters if you follow Yahushua's teachings and don't become concerned about having goods and riches in this life.
 
Upvote 0

MacFall

Agorist
Nov 24, 2007
12,726
1,171
Western Pennsylvania, USA
✟48,198.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The way I see it is if there is a universal currency then there will be a need for a universal government to govern everything to do with it = not good. Just my 2cents.

The whole point is to have a currency completely apart from ANY government. Governments don't make it, governments don't control it. Governments CAN'T control it.

@Gabe: not yet. And I'm not suggesting that anyone put all their dollars into bitcoin, or into metals, for that matter. But as more people begin to use alternatives to the dollar, and as the dollar becomes more inflationary, you might consider doing more of it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Allen1901
Upvote 0

MacFall

Agorist
Nov 24, 2007
12,726
1,171
Western Pennsylvania, USA
✟48,198.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
...if a 'coin' is just a file stored on your computer, what's stopping people from copying the file? I've tried to understand this but I still have no clue whatsoever about what it is or how it works. I do agree with your points about changing your investments from federal reserve pieces of paper to hard objects, but how is bitcoin safe?

That would be a question for the community to answer. There is a forum at bitcoin.org and a part of the FAQ dedicated to the latest and best ideas at security. I'm still reading about security, myself.

I suppose someone could also break in and steal your precious metals and durable goods too... :(

Yes. And people have adopted the mindset that security isn't their job, but it is. There's always something more that what you are doing now to keep your wealth more secure than it is.

I guess none of it really matters if you follow Yahushua's teachings and don't become concerned about having goods and riches in this life.

I don't think Jesus meant for us to be sloppy and careless with our material things. I'm putting my money into non-inflationary things because if I don't, then with the way things are going I'm going to end up with a bunch of worthless fiat paper and I won't be able to buy what I need to survive with it. Insulin costs me $350 for a three month supply, today. But if I save $350 in the bank and try to buy insulin three months from now, it won't be enough, because the price of insulin is rising faster than the interest rate. Much, much faster. I expect it to be closer to $375 by the time I need to buy again.

By having silver (or bitcoin) I can keep pace with inflation, and not end up dying from a lack of insulin. Gold isn't as liquid, so it's better for long-term investments, but the principle is the same.

That doesn't seem like an undue concern with material wealth, to me. It seems like being responsible for my own life. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Allen1901
Upvote 0

Gabe7

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2011
800
44
✟1,885.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
The whole point is to have a currency completely apart from ANY government. Governments don't make it, governments don't control it. Governments CAN'T control it.

@Gabe: not yet. And I'm not suggesting that anyone put all their dollars into bitcoin, or into metals, for that matter. But as more people begin to use alternatives to the dollar, and as the dollar becomes more inflationary, you might consider doing more of it.

It seems like a good idea. The problem is if you can't spend it on anything it kind of defeats the point of it being a currency.
 
Upvote 0

Qyöt27

AMV Editor At Large
Apr 2, 2004
7,879
573
40
St. Petersburg, Florida
✟96,859.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It seems like a good idea. The problem is if you can't spend it on anything it kind of defeats the point of it being a currency.
This is more commonly known as the chicken-and-egg problem. Currency rests on people believing it has value. In all seriousness, aside from rarity and the concept that people like shiny things, gold and silver are just pieces of metal/rock. Inherently they have no value, and the value they do attain is only as much value as we're willing to give them through supply and demand, and through industrial uses that the average consumer doesn't immediately deal with (like being used on microchips).

Likewise, if something can be used as currency it gains value. So which comes first, a declaration of its value as currency so people will accept it, or people accepting it so it gains value as currency?
 
Upvote 0

MacFall

Agorist
Nov 24, 2007
12,726
1,171
Western Pennsylvania, USA
✟48,198.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It started with a preliminary agreement to accept it within a small network of merchants and their customers. But now thousands of online merchants accept it, and hundreds more start accepting it every week. AND the rate of growth of acceptance is increasing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Allen1901
Upvote 0

MacFall

Agorist
Nov 24, 2007
12,726
1,171
Western Pennsylvania, USA
✟48,198.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Qyöt27;57503159 said:
This is more commonly known as the chicken-and-egg problem. Currency rests on people believing it has value. In all seriousness, aside from rarity and the concept that people like shiny things, gold and silver are just pieces of metal/rock. Inherently they have no value, and the value they do attain is only as much value as we're willing to give them through supply and demand, and through industrial uses that the average consumer doesn't immediately deal with (like being used on microchips).

Likewise, if something can be used as currency it gains value. So which comes first, a declaration of its value as currency so people will accept it, or people accepting it so it gains value as currency?

The first money (as far as economic historians have been able to ascertain) was salt - something which had properties that were useful to everyone (food preservation and the cleaning of wounds). It's universal acceptability was built into the qualities of the good itself.

Imagine you raised chickens in a pre-money (barter) economy, and you want a jar of preserved food. You won't have any problem finding a brinier to give you the food. The problem is, he also has to want chickens, or eggs. But what if he has enough of both? You are a chicken-having pickle-wanter in search of a pickle-having chicken-wanter - an inconvienent requirement of coincidence. But if you know that the brinier will accept salt (obviously a major component of brine), then you can obtain some salt from the beach and give it to the brinier in exchange for preserved food. As soon as everyone realizes this, salt can be given to anyone in exchange for anything, because everyone knows they can at any point bring it to the brinier in exchange for the universally-desired good of preserved food, and also to the doctor who uses it in his universally-desired service of medicine.

The problem with salt is that it is not durable, it is not very scarce, it is worth little in terms of volume, and it has a high use value outside its service as a medium of exchange. So people began to use tokens which were relatively scarce, durable, portable, and whose value was explicitly attached to their usefulness as a medium of exchange, to represent quantaties of salt. It is possible that people began to use these tokens by prior agreement, but more likely that someone in posession of a large quantity of salt issued them under the promise that he would deliver salt to those who most needed it in exchange for whatever he needed. This would make him the first banker. But before long, people would have realized that measuring the value of tokens in terms of salt was an unneeded step, since everyone was accepting the tokens anyway. Thus all goods and services began to be measured in terms of those tokens.

Eventually, the tokens were refined out of the market according to their comparative lack of monetary qualities - scarcity, homogeneity, divisibility, durability, and portability. Gold and silver rose to the top not because of some fiat order or Universal, spontaneous agreement, but because they possess those qualities of a good money more strongly than any other substance on earth. Thus tokens of gold and silver became the standard medium of exchange - the primary money - for the past 5,000 years, until they were eventually replaced by currencies, which were warehouse reciepts guaranteeing the bearer a certain quantity of gold or silver. But those warehouse receipts were gradually perverted by states desiring the ability to make war through debt financing, issuing quantaties of currency wildly in excess of metal reserves.

Bitcoin's goal is to dissolve the link between the economy and the tax-and-war machines enabled by governments' monetary monopolies. It has all the qualities of a good money: it is scarce, limited to an eventual 21,000,000 coins; it is homogeneous; it is INFINITELY divisible; it is durable, given proper safeguards taken by the user; and it is far more portable than metal. Its only drawback, as far as I can see, is that its durability depends upon communication technology remaining at its current level.

It only required a prior agreement of acceptance because people have forgotten what money is over the past century or so. Bitcoiners intend to teach them through example.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Allen1901
Upvote 0

benf

Christian
Dec 19, 2010
505
52
The Same Deep Water as You
✟30,870.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
-Personally-, I don't think bitcoin is something a Christian should be involved in. A large part of the currency is just used for swapping back and forth on Silk Road and Eden (.tor "deepweb" sites where people buy mail order hash/LSD/etc.). By mining you are essentially processing these transactions. By investing you are potentially cashing out people who have sold drugs.
 
Upvote 0

MacFall

Agorist
Nov 24, 2007
12,726
1,171
Western Pennsylvania, USA
✟48,198.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It's true that bitcoin will be embraced by the black market, in the same way that the internet was, and PayPal was, and any other online currencies (including bullion exchanges) are. That is because it reduces transaction costs which allows new entrants into the market, which usually has a very high rate of transaction costs (created by prohibition, not by the nature of the goods being sold). However, the argument that "Christians shouldn't do X because it might support illegal activity Y" can be applied to literally ANYTHING that the political class opposes. (And many things they don't: every time you go to a restaurant, you can be pretty sure you are giving money to someone who is going to use it to buy drugs). Have you had a look at the new money laundering laws? They make the same arguments that you are making about bitcoin about CASH.

When the government makes financial privacy illegal and monopolizes money, only outlaws will have privacy and participate in markets for media of exchange. I don't want to be associated with Silk Road, but it's not my fault that I am. It is the government's anti-privacy financial laws and their socialist monopoly on money that are at fault.

Do as your conscience leads you, but I think your conscience may be a bit misdirected on this issue. At some point, all good people are going to have to choose between participating in the black market and starvation. And when that happens, Christians will have allies in the peaceful providers of vices, even as we oppose the violent ones. And within that common interest, I think, will be where our ministry lies.

And speaking of opposing violence, the Silk Road and its competitors (many of whom, by the way, have been in existence since long before the bitcoin project was started) have decreased the amount of violence associated with drug trades by eliminating face-to-face dealing. My concern for drug users AND sellers is spiritual, not political. I am happy to see ANY harm-reducing development in that sector, and bitcoin is a means to that end, because it means fewer people turning into corpses before they can receive the help they need.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0