Bishops?

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Well, that pretty much destroys Lutheranism. Thank you for saving me time.

So, if I'm following you, if a denomination TRANSLATED the Greek word into English and called the office "Overseer" that destroy that denomination? Then why in the USA are Catholic pastors often called "priest?" That's NOT the Greek word in the NT for a pastor. Does that "destroy" the RCC?





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[DaRev]

"Bishop" (largely the transliteration of a Greek word) refers to one of several church offices - the exact identify and function of which cannot be determined......

Which Greek word, specifically, is "bishop" "largely a transliteration of"?

The English word "bishop" is used to translate the Greek word "episkopos" which in the NT refers to the office of the pastoral ministry, so we do know the identity of the office, Biblically.

Ok so riddle me this.

Basically the position of what we call today as a pastor, used to be called either Bishop or Elder and is translated in 1 Tim 3 as "overseer" correct??

The office defined in Scripture and referred to as "episkopos" (bishop, overseer) and "presbuteros" (elder) is the one divinely instituted office of the pastoral ministry. It is mainly the office that executes the function of the office of the keys.

What about the other office mentioned, translated to "deacon." First of all is the deacon menioned in the ESV the same office as we understand a deacon to be today? And secondly does it being mentioned directly in scripture as a church office make it also divinely instituted? And if no why not?

The position of "deacon" in the NT (diakonos) is that of an assistant. In our congregations today, we call this position "elder". This position is mentioned (but not named) in Acts 6. It is a man-made position began by the disciples after the ascension of Jesus to assist with day to day tasks so that the disciples could concentrate on ministry.

I know also we are sort of talking about one of the few doctrinal differences between Missouri and Wisconsin here so it would help for me to understand what the argument is about. (And maybe you could edjamacate me as to why its that big of a deal? I mean if Wisconsin and Missouri where one on all other doctrines (which I know they arn't) would they still be out of communion with eachother over what offices are divinely instituted?

The WELS does not recognize the pastoral office as the one divinely instituted office in the Church. They teach that every office in the Church and congregation is a part of the office of the ministry. Thus, they apply those restrictions regarding the role of women to every position within the Church. The LCMS recognizes the office of the pastoral ministry as the one divinely instituted office, and other positions within the congregation are man-made, created in order to execute certain organizational functions within the congregation. Since the Scriptures apply the restrictions of the role of women only to the one divinely instituted office, the man-made offices do not have such restrictions, except for those positions that involve carrying out the functions of the pastoral office or involve oversight or accountability of the functions of the pastoral office.

As for whether or not the WELS and LCMS would hinge fellowship on this one issue, you'd have to ask someone from the WELS. It could make any joint work efforts problematic.

 

[Luther073082]

Which Greek word, specifically, is "bishop" "largely a transliteration of"?

The English word "bishop" is used to translate the Greek word "episkopos" which in the NT refers to the office of the pastoral ministry, so we do know the identity of the office, Biblically.

The office defined in Scripture and referred to as "episkopos" (bishop, overseer) and "presbuteros" (elder) is the one divinely instituted office of the pastoral ministry. It is mainly the office that executes the function of the office of the keys.

Is there anything in scripture which indicates that episkopos is the office of the keys? Or does the word episkopos have a greek meaning which relates to it?

The position of "deacon" in the NT (diakonos) is that of an assistant. In our congregations today, we call this position "elder". This position is mentioned (but not named) in Acts 6. It is a man-made position began by the disciples after the ascension of Jesus to assist with day to day tasks so that the disciples could concentrate on ministry.

Ok thats the other thing that I'm trying to figure out. Where in the scriptures is the episkopos office mentioned directly before Jesus's ascension?

The WELS does not recognize the pastoral office as the one divinely instituted office in the Church. They teach that every office in the Church and congregation is a part of the office of the ministry. Thus, they apply those restrictions regarding the role of women to every position within the Church. The LCMS recognizes the office of the pastoral ministry as the one divinely instituted office, and other positions within the congregation are man-made, created in order to execute certain organizational functions within the congregation. Since the Scriptures apply the restrictions of the role of women only to the one divinely instituted office, the man-made offices do not have such restrictions, except for those positions that involve carrying out the functions of the pastoral office or involve oversight or accountability of the functions of the pastoral office.

So let me get this straight, because they hold all office to be divinely instituted, the WELS does not allow women to participate in any ministry positions such as even a Sunday school teacher or choir director?

 

[seajoy]

Yes, we have women Sunday school teachers and choir directors.

 

[Luther073082]

Yes, we have women Sunday school teachers and choir directors.

So where does the difference of "only pastorial office is divinely instituted" and "all church offices are divinely institued" come into play?

 

[seajoy]

So where does the difference of "only pastorial office is divinely instituted" and "all church offices are divinely institued" come into play?

You don't think we are all called to serve God? I guess I don't get what you are after here. Scripture teaches no women are to be pastors. We follow that.

 

[DaRev]

Is there anything in scripture which indicates that episkopos is the office of the keys? Or does the word episkopos have a greek meaning which relates to it?

The word "episkopos" along with "presbuteros" are the titles given to that position which carries out the function of the office of the keys, teaches and preaches in the Church, and administers the Sacraments.

Ok thats the other thing that I'm trying to figure out. Where in the scriptures is the episkopos office mentioned directly before Jesus's ascension?

That word does not appear in Matthew 28, but the command to baptize and teach is given, which are two of the functions of the pastoral office. But that's not the only place the duties of the office are alluded to. Jesus' words to Peter "shepherd My sheep" in John 21:16 is also a passage where the office is instituted. Also, when Jesus appears to the disciples in the locked room right after His resurrection, he breathes on them, giving them the Holy Spirit and the ability to forgive and retain sins.

So let me get this straight, because they hold all office to be divinely instituted, the WELS does not allow women to participate in any ministry positions such as even a Sunday school teacher or choir director?

I don't believe that anyone said they hold ALL offices to be divinely instituted. I said they do not recognize the pastoral office as the one divinely instituted office. They apply the restriction of women's authority to all offices of the congregation, thus women cannot be treasurers or financial secretaries or school principals or even voting members of the congregation.

 

[Luther073082]

The word "episkopos" along with "presbuteros" are the titles given to that position which carries out the function of the office of the keys, teaches and preaches in the Church, and administers the Sacraments.

That word does not appear in Matthew 28, but the command to baptize and teach is given, which are two of the functions of the pastoral office. But that's not the only place the duties of the office are alluded to. Jesus' words to Peter "shepherd My sheep" in John 21:16 is also a passage where the office is instituted. Also, when Jesus appears to the disciples in the locked room right after His resurrection, he breathes on them, giving them the Holy Spirit and the ability to forgive and retain sins.

I guess what I'm looking for is something a little more solid that relates the office to the duties.

From my prospective is that some offices where mentioned in scripture and some duties where stated in scripture. And we've determined that the duties of this office where this. . . How did we come to that determination?

Is it just as simple as using tradition to understand the scriptures? In other words determining that the office of episcopos and the office of the keys where one in the same because that is how Christians historically have operated?

If I recall correctly the BoC tells us that Jesus gave the power of the keys to the entire church and the church in turn invests that power into one representative of the church with whom the office of the keys is entrusted. And that therefore a person should not be instituting sacraments without a regular call.

What is missing to me is the connection between it all. What connects episcopos to sacraments, preaching, teaching, and forgiving sins?

I don't believe that anyone said they hold ALL offices to be divinely instituted. I said they do not recognize the pastoral office as the one divinely instituted office. They apply the restriction of women's authority to all offices of the congregation, thus women cannot be treasurers or financial secretaries or school principals or even voting members of the congregation.

So do they have a way of differentiating between which offices they consider to be divinely established and which ones are not?

Sorry for the in-depth questions. But if we are going to claim to be the closest thing the the apostolic church I just want to make sure there is actually reason to belive that claim.

 

[DaRev]

I guess what I'm looking for is something a little more solid that relates the office to the duties.

From my prospective is that some offices where mentioned in scripture and some duties where stated in scripture. And we've determined that the duties of this office where this. . . How did we come to that determination?

Is it just as simple as using tradition to understand the scriptures? In other words determining that the office of episcopos and the office of the keys where one in the same because that is how Christians historically have operated?

If I recall correctly the BoC tells us that Jesus gave the power of the keys to the entire church and the church in turn invests that power into one representative of the church with whom the office of the keys is entrusted. And that therefore a person should not be instituting sacraments without a regular call.

What is missing to me is the connection between it all. What connects episcopos to sacraments, preaching, teaching, and forgiving sins?

Here's a link to a document that can explain these better than I can at this point in time.

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/Ministry_opn2.pdf

So do they have a way of differentiating between which offices they consider to be divinely established and which ones are not?

That is not a question I can answer. And if I attempt to I will catch the entire 7th level of hell from the WELS people here.