Bishop Spong Q&A on Revelation

[Kaonashi]

Marilyn Redel from Amherstburg, Ontario, Canada writes:
"I'm really bothered by the fundamentalist Christian movement that talks so much about the 'end times.' My daughter-in-law admits to being a fundamentalist Christian, and my husband and I get into some discussions with her from time to time. I'm wondering about your views on the book of Revelation, since I haven't heard you mention it. Do you have any reading suggestions about Revelation?"

Marilyn's husband adds:

"I recently reviewed the Book of Revelation, which I hadn't read for some time. There's been a lot of fuss about end times among evangelical friends and family. It's no wonder, in the 2x2 church in which I grew up, that we didn't spend a lot of time reading this book. I have a question about the 12 tribes mentioned, of which 12,000 each are spared: Are they the original Israel and Judah tribes (which couldn't have all been around when this material was supposed to have been written)?"

Dear Mr. & Mrs. Redel,
I have never written about the Book of Revelation because I do not regard it as worthy of the kind of study that would be required to write about this book. I'm sorry it was included in the canon of the New Testament because it is so dated. It is a piece of apocalyptic literature written under a code developed by late 1st century Christians. Presumably the community that wrote this book and that received it would understand that it was designed to strengthen them to endure a persecution that was probably local, not empire wide, in the last decade of the 1st Christian century. It is a product of the same Johannine School that produced the Gospel of John and the Epistles of John in the New Testament though it is not by the same author. It probably does participate in the idea that the world is coming to an end soon but that was obviously a mistake since we are here now. In early Christianity there was an idea that the second coming of Jesus and the dawning of the Kingdom of God on earth would come in the lifetime of people living then. Paul advances this idea both in I Thessalonians and in I Corinthians. By the end of the 1st century that idea had begun to die out and was replaced by the suggestion that the church must be built for the long term. The book of Acts reflects this new consensus. The book of Revelation reflects a throwback to the earlier attitude and may have been inspired by the current local persecution that was interpreted as the beginning of the cruelty that would accompany the end of the world. In later years, when the supposed date of Jesus' birth was set and time counted from that day forward, end of the world talk has always accompanied the end of a century and was even more pronounced at the end of a millennium.

I have no truck with those who read the Bible this way. Predictions about the end of the world, talk about the "rapture" and "no child left behind" are all so much literal nonsense to me.

I have read the book of Revelation on several occasions. I studied it when I was in seminary, but in no great depth. Today I would rather spend my time on the gospels, Paul, or even the prophets, all of which have enriched my life greatly. I do not see such potential in the book of Revelation.

When one tries to interpret the symbols as Mr. Redel does in his letter, he falls into the trap of assuming that there is some literal truth that needs to be discovered. That is not the case. If all the copies of the book of Revelation were lost tomorrow, I do not believe much of value would disappear. However, it does keep some religious fanatics busy so maybe that is its primary purpose.

Thank you for your letter.

-- John Shelby Spong

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

I can't say I entirely know what to make of Revelations myself. However, I cannot, as Bishop Spong does, rule out a real prophetic meaning to it, as difficult as it may be to understand. I note that Spong himself admits he has not studied Revelations in any depth. I suspect it will yield up its riches only to one who does so, and in addition possesses the gift of dream interpretation, as did Joseph.

 

[Im_A]

i agree with Spong on this. the book has no meaning for my life. the apocalpytic nature of the book written during a time of utter persecution leads me to think this.

since so many ideas formulate from this book about end times/finding reason to believe the world will end, or their/our messiah is coming back when that messiah was pretty firm about no one knowing(which goes to show those expecting it to be now to be futile attempts imho) and, just because church council put it in the cannon that doesn't mean it has any benefits for my life. choose not to find any meaning for my life in it because the mentioned above.

plus i don't know why we as Christians have to believe that every dot of the Bible was written with people in mind that live in April 14th, 2007.

 

[non-religious]

I believe that every book contained within the Bible is there for a specific purpose and Revelation is as important as any other part of the scripture it sits beside. I would also argue the point that John did write this book (refers to himself 4 times in the book) and the early church unanimously attributes the book to him.

I haven't studied it myself and I do tend to rather gloss over it, but I would never rule it out as unimportant or worst still uninspired

 

[non-religious]

[tattedsaint]
plus i don't know why we as Christians have to believe that every dot of the Bible was written with people in mind that live in April 14th, 2007.

Well I would counter that statement with the fact that I believe scripture is inspired and directed by God. So ultimately the messages within scripture that do encompass all aspects of life are very much still applicable today.

Just because society has evoloved in regard to accepting things that were once deemed unacceptable and we have become more tolerant, complacent, compromised and comfortable with the ever changing structure of the modern Church; that doesn't mean that the Bible is not relevant for today.

There is a danger of us as people bringing God down to our level of understanding and wisdom and placing His authority and Word in a box that suits us. As opposed to us raising our heads up to God and looking toward Him for our knowledge and wisdom.

I do believe we are on dangerous ground there

 

[Im_A]

Well I would counter that statement with the fact that I believe scripture is inspired and directed by God. So ultimately the messages within scripture that do encompass all aspects of life are very much still applicable today.

Just because society has evoloved in regard to accepting things that were once deemed unacceptable and we have become more tolerant, complacent, compromised and comfortable with the ever changing structure of the modern Church; that doesn't mean that the Bible is not relevant for today.

There is a danger of us as people bringing God down to our level of understanding and wisdom and placing His authority and Word in a box that suits us. As opposed to us raising our heads up to God and looking toward Him for our knowledge and wisdom.

I do believe we are on dangerous ground there

i believe it can be seen from the other way as well.

forgive me bro for making this response short, i'll respond with more later after work if i'm being vague with a short response, but to dictate a book as the "Word of God" just because inspiration is there but it could have been meant for them in their own times and them only and then to say it is meant for us could be seen as dangerous ground as well.

plus might i add, the "Word of God" i have a hard time seeing in a book form. are we entailing the Protestant version of the Bible is the "Word of God" or the Catholic version of the Bible" is the "Word of God" cause the Reformation took out parts of the "Word of God"?

this book has also been debated in the past of its worthiness to be included in the cannon as well (wish i had time to give some kind of source to show that claim as worth, but i will do so when i get off of work if you'd like me to. )

God Bless you and again i apologize for a short response. i need to head to work.

 

[progressivegal]

I often felt exactly how Bishop Spong does about Revelation in the past, but after reading "The Rapture Exposed" by Barbara R. Rossing, "The Secret Message of Jesus" by Brian Mclaren and "adventures in Missing the Point" by Mclaren and Tony Campalo I have come to have a new appreciation for and even a new love of the book of Revelation. I think the problem with Revelation is not what it says but how modern western Christians have come to perceive what it says. It is a message of hope that reminds us that God will triumph of hate and greed and injustice, that God has triumphed over these things, but it is also confusing. Jewish Apocalypse is not a genre that we know and understand very well in this day and age. When we try to take every word as a literal-non metaphorical depiction of the future we are doing the book itself a great disservice I think. People have taken the book of revelation as well as other books of the bible and interpreted them in order to produce alot of fear and anxiety (whether intentionally or not), especially in little children and that makes me very sad. But if we try to look at the book of Revelation in the eyes of the original intended audience then we can discover a beautiful message of hope and an assurance that good has is and will triumph over evil, and that God will wipe away every tear (such a beautiful statement that if it where not for the book of revelation might not be on my heart.)

 

[Mandrake]

Just as a note, the textual evidence seems to indicate that the John of Revelation is a different author than that of the epistles and the Gospels. The writing style is wildly different, both in terms of composition and vocabulary.

 

[non-religious]

[Mandrake]Just as a note, the textual evidence seems to indicate that the John of Revelation is a different author than that of the epistles and the Gospels. The writing style is wildly different, both in terms of composition and vocabulary.

I disagree....

 

[Bick]

Obviously, there are many interpretations of Revelation, but, IMO, it is because so many are 'told' what it means instead of carefully studying it, with the aid of concordance, lexicon, etc.

It makes sense to me to see that it has to do with Israel and the nations in the era of the day of the Lord.

The church/body of Christ has no part in it. We, the body of Christ will, IMO, be caught up to the heavens before the tribulation/the day of the Lord comes.

I'm making these statements now without scriptural references, but I can supply those if necessary.

The sad and confusing thing to many in the Faith, is all the hoopla about 'the end of the world is soon'; or 'prepare for the end times', etc.

As believers in the church/body of Christ, our Apostle and teacher is Paul. He states in almost every page of his epistles, that our hope is meeting the Lord in the air, or awaiting his presence to be with him.

Just as Paul's hope was to not die and be caught up, so we should have that hope each day, for there is no prophecy that has to be fulfilled.

Keep looking up, Bick

 

[BABYCUBY]

amen

 

[GaryP]

Suppose, The Book itself is altered. If you read it in Reverse, starting in Rev 22. Last verse reading forward then next verse, Chapters 21,20 etc. You will read an introduction, you will be given warnings, with an invite to partake of the tree of life and live in a jeweled city. I am wondering if the book was split in 2, as the end seems like a better beginning. I was also wondering, Why we are being offered the apple
again.