Bishop Lawrence Out of the TEC

[Adam Warlock]

Hear our prayers.

 

[seekingsister]

Lord guide the Church in America through these difficult times; God in your mercy.

 

[mark46]

Lord guide the Church in America through these difficult times; God in your mercy.

 

[LewsTherin]

Lord guide the Church in America through these difficult times; God in your mercy.

Hear our prayer.

 

[Albion]

Lawrence has been moving for quite some time away from TEC over the past few years, scrubbing mentions of the Diocese's affiliation and even the term "Episcopal" from legal documents of all sorts, being lassiez faire about congregations within his diocese leaving TEC on their own, his own rather strong comments in sermons and at conventions, and what happened with his son.

That seems fair to say. However, there's a big difference between taking these steps, which obviously annoyed the PB and gave her an opening, and planning on a departure from the church. Bishop Lawrence was accused of planning to leave TEC since before he was approved as bishop; he denied that it was true; and I personally feel that there is no evidence that he wasn't truthful about that or that he'd changed his mind.

 

[MKJ]

np

BTW, Bishop Lawrence although has close relationships with those in ACNA and GAFCON. He has no intention to jump into another relationship anytime soon (his words from last night). In addition to needing to catch his breath, there will be lots to deal with in the next few months. For starters, all mention of TEC is being taken out of the diocesan canon and constitution. He is also making a tour of parishes and having clergy conferences, culminating in the general convention i=on November 17th. ACNA can wait for a year.

This is probably a good thing. I think that taking some time to figure out what to do before committing to any other organization is important. IMO it speaks very well of the Bishop - jumping directly into other fractionated Anglican groups just doesn't seem like a great way to repair any sort of order to me.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread has had a small clean up in the middle.

Carry on....

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

There was one more clean up. Please do not quote rule violators

 

[mark46]

Per today's newspaper, you will be able to worship at St Mark's Chapel in Port Royal and remain in The Episcopal Church. They have indicated that they are part of TEC, as has All Saints in Hilton Head. I presume that there will be others throughout the diocese. These churches await an announcement of the interim TEC bishop for the diocese. I would think that the bishop of Upper Carolina should be able to step in when authorized to do so. In any case, the previously scheduled TEC convention is scheduled for March 8-9.

Bishop Lawrence clearly has no jurisdiction in churches that want to stay in TEC. As he has told everyone, the parishioners won their churches. Bishop Lawrence is simply one of the six Anglican bishops that claims jurisdiction in Coastal South Carolina, including two recognized by the Global South.

To quote from the ad taken out by the two churches, "The Episcopal Church Is Alive and Well In South Carolina". I would disagree with the use of the word "well", but it is part of idiom.

How exactly was Bishop Lawrence denied due process? My limited understanding is that the finding by the committee leads to a trial being held.

Clarification: I do not know the PB and wouldn't consider myself her supporter and frankly I don't feel she is the issue. I wouldn't care if she was a man or a conservative etc. The only reason I am concerned in the least is that my primary residence is in Coastal Carolina (though my wife who was born and raised in Beaufort, and I are in Wisconsin for school) and there used to be an abundance of Episcopal Churches. When we move back in a couple of years where will we worship?

 

[rhartsc]

I am glad to hear that at least 2 locations in Beaufort County will remain with the TEC.

 

[DariusArcturus]

However, there's a big difference between taking these steps, which obviously annoyed the PB and gave her an opening, and planning on a departure from the church.

Wait.. you're saying that removing mentions of the greater Church from legal documents, taking no steps to keep departing congregations part of the greater body, and purposefully subverting established ordination practices isn't an indication of plans for a departure?

If so, I'm honestly not sure what would be.

Seriously.

 

[Albion]

Wait.. you're saying that removing mentions of the greater Church from legal documents, taking no steps to keep departing congregations part of the greater body, and purposefully subverting established ordination practices isn't an indication of plans for a departure?

That's right. As a matter of fact, those actions (although I disagree with the applicability of the word "subverting") are more likely to suggest the opposite. Why, for instance, would any bishop try to minimize the effect of the national church's decision on ordinations or marriages if he was on the verge of putting himself beyond the reach of the national church?

 

[DariusArcturus]

That's right. As a matter of fact, those actions (although I disagree with the applicability of the word "subverting") are more likely to suggest the opposite. Why, for instance, would any bishop try to minimize the effect of the national church's decision on ordinations or marriages if he was on the verge of putting himself beyond the reach of the national church?

The opposite?

I honestly don't know what events you're watching, Albion.

"Subverting" is appropriate and applicable. There's a well known series of steps to take, and he chose another set in place of them.

It's not a matter of "minimizing" any effect other than their affiliation! If you take out mentions of the organization you're apparently affiliated with from identifying documents when you're known to have a problem with that organization, what does that imply other than a push away from the organization?

To say that it is "the opposite" i.e. trying to *strengthen* ties..? That does not make sense.

It would be like taking your business' name off of your own business cards while saying "I still work there, honest."

(Read: highly suspect.)

 

[Albion]

The opposite?

I honestly don't know what events you're watching, Albion.

We're talking about the same ones.

"Subverting" is appropriate and applicable.

That's a value judgment, and I disagree for the reasons I explained.

To say that it is "the opposite" i.e. trying to *strengthen* ties..? That does not make sense.

It would be like taking your business' name off of your own business cards while saying "I still work there, honest."

(Read: highly suspect.)

I thought I was quite clear there, so I don't know what more to add. I don't think your explanation adds up, BTW, since Bp. Lawrence did not resign. Therefore, saying this would be like taking your name off your business card while still on the job doesn't add up. He was still on the job.

 

[Cjwinnit]

That's a value judgment,

We definately can't have one of those in the Anglican sub-forum

 

[rhartsc]

Wait.. you're saying that removing mentions of the greater Church from legal documents, taking no steps to keep departing congregations part of the greater body, and purposefully subverting established ordination practices isn't an indication of plans for a departure?

If so, I'm honestly not sure what would be.

Seriously.

You hit the nail on the head. It is clear for those that look at the facts that it was Bishop Lawrence's intention to leave (actions speak louder than words) and that he did indeed disaffiliate from the TEC and was not thrown out as some have claimed.

 

[Albion]

You hit the nail on the head. It is clear for those that look at the facts that it was Bishop Lawrence's intention to leave.

It would be helpful if the folks who think that had any facts to back it up.

 

[rhartsc]

[From the diocesan website.


What does it mean that we are “disassociated” from The Episcopal Church?

It means that we have now completely withdrawn our accession to the Constitution and Canons of TEC. The Diocese of South Carolina continues as it has since its founding as those parishes in union with one another and legally organized and incorporated as The Protestant Episcopal Church in the Diocese of South Carolina. That identity has not changed.

How was that accomplished?

It was resolved on October 2, 2012 by the board of directors of the Diocese that at such time as the Bishop of the Diocese was attacked in any fashion by TEC, we would disassociate, effective immediately. That conditional resolution was passed precisely because there was concern for the risks of entering negotiations with the office of the Presiding Bishop. Unfortunately, those concerns proved well founded. [The actual language of the resolution may be found here: http://www.diosc.com/sys/images/documents/tec/sc_conditional_disassociate.pdf)

Are there additional conditional resolutions?

Only one, which also took effect immediately. When charges were being considered last Fall against Bp. Lawrence, the Standing Committee passed a similar resolution that called a special convention to be held for the first Saturday more than 30 days from any action taken against the Bishop (the minimum notice required by our diocesan canons). [The minutes of the meeting in which that decision was made can be found here: http://www.diosc.com/sys/images/docu...sc_11_1_11.pdf)



Originally Posted by Albion

Nope. No disaffiliation motion was adopted (or proposed) by the Diocese.
​

It would be nice if you could acknowledge the evidence that is given and provide some of your own. To date I have not seen you provide any evidence when asked to do so.

 

[DariusArcturus]

[From the diocesan website.

IMHO, that's pretty cut and dry.

Means. Motive. Opportunity. (Although not nearly as exciting as a courtroom drama.)

 

[Albion]

You hit the nail on the head. It is clear for those that look at the facts that it was Bishop Lawrence's intention to leave (actions speak louder than words) and that he did indeed disaffiliate from the TEC and was not thrown out as some have claimed.

Oh my. Have you read anything about this or are you just posting your wishful thinking? There is no evidence that he planned to leave; nor have you produced any. There is some that suggests he did not plan on it. That's all a matter of interpretation, but when you come to the claim that he disaffiliated, that's nothing but a deliberate fabrication.