Bishop criticizes 'slavishly literal' English translation of missal

[NewMan99]

Liturgical prayer is definitely not a "me and Jesus" experience.

Not if it comes at the expense of the corporate expressions of faith. It is a both/and - not an either/or.

 

[Fantine]

But that is exactly my point. Whatever prayer is most inspirational to the congregation is going to make the prayer least like "me and Jesus," because their inspiration is going to hit you like hundreds of little sunbeams.

But what kind of prayer (or hymns, for that matter) do this? I recognize that that can be different for different people.

I have been thinking all this weekend about a particular "saint" hymn--"O Beauty Ever Ancient" based on the Confessions of St. Augustine. In the first place the music is Celtic...but the words are just beautiful. I never would have developed an interest in reading the Confessions of St. Augustine were it not for this hymn (which was written within the past twenty years or so, I'm pretty sure.)

I think this translation is going to result in fewer sunbeams falling on all of us.

 

[NewMan99]

We will have to agree to disagree on that then. I fail to see how nominalism results in more sunbeams. And I worry about "sunbeams" based on an imprecise and shallow expression of the faith.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I just had an idea.

If the Church just does what fits the greatest number of people, they might not really grow. For example.. let's suppose that some Catholics who were not properly catechized, don't understand transubstantiation. So should we avoid it in discussions? or what if they don't BELIEVE in the Eucharist, and don't really think about it? Should we stop saying at Mass that it's Christ's Body and Blood? I think it's kind of similar with language... if we simply cater to people at the level they're at, no one would ever grow, and people would soon get bored anyway and leave. But if a challenge is presented, there's an opportunity to learn. That's part of the richness of our faith.. instead of being pushed away from Catholicism when I saw all the complexity, I was drawn towards it, because it seemed so much richer and beautiful than what i knew before in Protestantism.

one of the goals of the liturgy is to lift people's hearts and minds to God. Primarily liturgy should be for God, not for people... we should just focus on what would be pleasing to Him. But it's also true that there's something otherworldly about a beautiful church with Gregorian chant, incense, artwork, etc. When I visit these types of churches, it is easier for me to pray, because it reminds me of spiritual realities. Even the peace and quiet. That's why I love tradition and traditional music, not for some aesthetic reason, (though aesthetically it's pleasing too) but because it reminds me of Heaven. If it doesn't work for someone, okay. But I think most people would probably benefit from a liturgy that helps them forget the world more and focus on Christ.

So my point is.. if the new translation is accepted, I think the overall language of the Mass would better reflect the spiritual reality behind it, and this might inspire people and lift their minds to God. Sure there would be others who wouldn't understand the words. But words can be explained.. Also sometimes a word makes sense simply from the context of the sentence.

Quite frankly, Monica, I think you feel a greater sense of reverence because the translators are "advertising" it as being more reverent. Of course if authority figures say it's more reverent some people will take them at face value.

And I disagree. They may be advertising it as more reverent, but from what I've sampled, it's just more obfuscuatory.

I think the new translation inspires reverence, for the same reason as traditional prayers inspire reverence. This type of language emphasizes that we are speaking to a King. (the King of Kings). Hence, the reverence. Also I think it's more technical in a way - meaning that the terminology is more correct... more accurate.

Do you mean to say that I haven't given the matter any thought? or that I don't really know what reverence feels like and so I need someone to tell me if something is reverent or not? But I think the way humans are, we tend to know without it being explained. When something makes you feel smaller before God, and you understand He is to be worshipped, that to me is reverence. It's also respect.. if we were to address Christ using modern day slang, that would not be really respectful (though if done with a loving heart, the intention would be right and He would hopefully accept it.) But why not aim for the most beautiful, lofty language we know, to reflect the reality of what we are doing at the Mass? yes, Jesus looks at our hearts, but since we love Him why not show Him that in ALL the ways we can, including altar decoration and attention to detail? When two people love each other here on earth, they try to show this in all sorts of ways...often they go out of their way to do so. They are ready to spend ridiculous amounts of money or time just to make their loved one feel special. What if we had the same attitude at Church? Or imagine a marriage proposal...why do people write up those beautiful speeches or even write poems? why not just send a text message saying "hey u wanna marry me tmrrow."

The Church is not a democracy.

I'm glad!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Just to illustrate with the words of one of my favourite hymns...

Let all mortal flesh keep silence,
And with fear and trembling stand;
Ponder nothing earthly minded,
For with blessing in His hand,
Christ our God to earth descendeth,
Our full homage to demand.

King of kings, yet born of Mary,
As of old on earth He stood,
Lord of lords, in human vesture,
In the body and the blood;
He will give to all the faithful
His own self for heavenly food.

Rank on rank the host of heaven
Spreads its vanguard on the way,
As the Light of light descendeth
From the realms of endless day,
That the powers of hell may vanish
As the darkness clears away.

At His feet the six wingèd seraph,
Cherubim with sleepless eye,
Veil their faces to the presence,
As with ceaseless voice they cry:
Alleluia, Alleluia
Alleluia, Lord Most High!

Is this hymn is too much about respect of God and not enough about intimate relationship with Him? But....when we realize how holy He is, doesn't that make the relationship, and the Eucharist, seem even more amazing?? To know that despite the distance between us and God, He STILL loves us? I believe that reverence and relationship tend to emphasize each other. We realize who God is, and are amazed that we can know Him, that we receive Him in Communion... and so we receive Him with more love and gratitude than before

 

[chilehed]

I'm not certain that stating that the average parishoner likely doesn't know the word "ignonomy" is an example of smugness.

You don't understand how your attitude is one of confidence in your greater ability compared to others?

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Maybe the USCCB won't approve its use after all.

This is not a new translation, it is a correction of the previous mistranslations and brings the language into agreement with the language used in all other countries of the world (Spanish, French, Italian, etc.) The only reason that it is a problem is because the foot dragging by those who originally made the mistranslations over the last 40 years to keep the corrections from being made. I am proud that the current US Bishops Conference has the courage to step up to the plate and finally get this done and off of the agenda.

 

[Davidnic]

This is not a new translation, it is a correction of the previous mistranslations and brings the language into agreement with the language used in all other countries of the world (Spanish, French, Italian, etc.) The only reason that it is a problem is because the foot dragging by those who originally made the mistranslations over the last 40 years to keep the corrections from being made. I am proud that the current US Bishops Conference has the courage to step up to the plate and finally get this done and off of the agenda.

Indeed. I think that is what people are forgetting is that all other countries have translations that match this one because this is the proper translation.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Just to illustrate with the words of one of my favourite hymns...

Let all mortal flesh keep silence,
And with fear and trembling stand;
Ponder nothing earthly minded,
For with blessing in His hand,
Christ our God to earth descendeth,
Our full homage to demand.

King of kings, yet born of Mary,
As of old on earth He stood,
Lord of lords, in human vesture,
In the body and the blood;
He will give to all the faithful
His own self for heavenly food.

Rank on rank the host of heaven
Spreads its vanguard on the way,
As the Light of light descendeth
From the realms of endless day,
That the powers of hell may vanish
As the darkness clears away.

At His feet the six wingèd seraph,
Cherubim with sleepless eye,
Veil their faces to the presence,
As with ceaseless voice they cry:
Alleluia, Alleluia
Alleluia, Lord Most High!

Is this hymn is too much about respect of God and not enough about intimate relationship with Him? But....when we realize how holy He is, doesn't that make the relationship, and the Eucharist, seem even more amazing?? To know that despite the distance between us and God, He STILL loves us? I believe that reverence and relationship tend to emphasize each other. We realize who God is, and are amazed that we can know Him, that we receive Him in Communion... and so we receive Him with more love and gratitude than before

One of my most favourite hymns.


In Pax Christi,
Matthew


P.S. Have a hug; I'm in a "hugging" kind of mood.------------------>

 

[stone]

Bishop criticizes 'slavishly literal' English translation of missal

By Mark Pattison, Catholic News Service




WASHINGTON (CNS) -- Bishop Donald W. Trautman of Erie, Pa., former chairman of the U.S. bishops' liturgy committee, sharply criticized what he called the "slavishly literal" translation into English of the new Roman Missal from the original Latin.
He said the "sacred language" used by translators "tends to be elitist and remote from everyday speech and frequently not understandable" and could lead to a "pastoral disaster."
"The vast majority of God's people in the assembly are not familiar with words of the new missal like 'ineffable,' 'consubstantial,' 'incarnate,' 'inviolate,' 'oblation,' 'ignominy,' 'precursor,' 'suffused' and 'unvanquished.' The vocabulary is not readily understandable by the average Catholic," Bishop Trautman said.
"The (Second Vatican Council's) Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy stipulated vernacular language, not sacred language," he added. "Did Jesus ever speak to the people of his day in words beyond their comprehension? Did Jesus ever use terms or expressions beyond his hearer's understanding?"

Bishop criticizes 'slavishly literal' English translation of missal | USCatholic.org


The Bishop is right on. The new translation only adds confusion to the Mass, not better understanding.


Maybe the USCCB won't approve its use after all.

Jim

He's right.

 

[Fantine]

I can think of at least 100 psalms I prefer to that hymn.

And they were written at least two thousand years prior.

See, I'm a traditionalist after all.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Always, such a downer, oy?!

The Sixties is over. This happy-clappy hippy business is over; it's about time the Church start with the Gregorian Chant and Polyphony, and other solemn hymns , incense and reverence at Holy Mass, again, enough of this wannabe Prot Service kind of demeanor and repetoire; we're Catholics for cryin' out loud; not Prots, let's have a dignified and mysterious other-worldly worship!

I want the Catholic Church, not a pseudo-Lutheran Church/pseudo-non-denom/pseudo-evangelical church

 

[Fantine]

Always, such a downer, oy?!

The Sixties is over. This happy-clappy hippy business is over; it's about time the Church start with the Gregorian Chant and Polyphony, and other solemn hymns , incense and reverence at Holy Mass, again, enough of this wannabe Prot Service kind of demeanor and repetoire; we're Catholics for cryin' out loud.

There are 1.6 billion Catholics on six continents, for cryin' out loud. And if you think that you can superimpose a "one-size-fits-all" list of Gregorian Chant and Polyphony on all 1.6 billion of them, you might find some of them going to shop at the other stores that do carry their sizes and respect their individuality.

The idea that God, who put his creative spark in composers throughout history and all over the world, prefers one type of music over another is beyond ridiculous.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

One of my most favourite hymns.


In Pax Christi,
Matthew


P.S. Have a hug; I'm in a "hugging" kind of mood.------------------>

hugs back to you brother

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Actually, there are approximately between 1.00 and 1.1 billion Catholics world-wide; and I'm merely reiterating the words of the Second Vatican Council, that Gregorian Chant, Polyphony, dignified hymns and the retention of Latin as the Sacral Tongue of the Sacred Liturgy.

Also, I am in support of and in favour of : the further revitalization and re-sacralizing of the Roman rite by the complete restoration of the Tridentine Mass: the Mass of Vatican II.

This has to do with worshiping in the same manner and way which the Church has always worshiped, not in ways imitative of the heretical Protestant sects, be they Lutheran, Pentecostal, Charismatic, or Calvinist in the barrenness or the innovation contained within their respect methodologies of "worship."

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass needs to be indicative of the especial reality that when the priest, by the power of Christ and the Holy Ghost, presents mere bread and wine on the Altar, that at the Words of Consecration, simple bread and wine become "transubstantiated" into the very and true Body and Blood of Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

However, it seems to me that you are proposing worship indicative of and concerning the beliefs of Protestants who neither affirm the Holy Eucharist to be Christ's very Body and Blood nor would reflect that sublime-ness or solemnity that such a Holy Oblation that this Holy Sacrifice gives unto Catholics; rather they celebrate with the only the Bible, their own preachers' sermon, and their particular songs: none of which are indicative of the true worship of the Holy Mass, that is alone found within the Holy Catholic Church.

Thus it should be of no small wonder, that we, as Catholics, should be puzzled as to why one such as yourself would have us not return and restore the musical forms of our patrimony and generously encourage its spread.

There isn't a "lack of interest" of such illustrious forms of music as Polyphony and Gregorian or Plain chant, so much as a mass preponderance of ignorance regard them; and a fundamental disdain for these forms are indicative of a general disdain by those of either the Liberal or Modernist persuasion that dwell within the Catholic Church, who seeking to innovate or change our faith from that of the self-same faith as comes from our "Patriomony"---the Paradosis, the "Holy Tradition" of forefathers in the faith, the Saints, the Holy Apostles, and Christ our Saviour, into some new form of worship, one foreign to the centuries of celebrated Catholic liturgical practice.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Also, I hear you never attending nor appreciating the beauty or solemnity of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostum; I'm curious as to why?

But to continue onward: WHY then must we Change the forms or manner in which we worship, rather should we not strive with greater resolve, to catechize, missionize, and evangelize those ignorant in the Faith, rather than innovate in the worship so as to cater to the ever-fluctuating and evanescent tides of cultural change that wash about us?

Why should we change the Roman rite? I see no reason to change any prayers within the Roman rite, other than to ensure the greatest fidelity to form of the Latin text and sacrality of them or as should be done organically and gradually throughout the centuries.


I should only note this, that the faith is collapsing in many areas of the world, the faith is collapsing, not only due to lack of catechisis and the rising tide of intellectual modernism, post-modernism, and atheism; but also because so many have a lost a sense of what is "sacred," holy, and "mystical" in the Mass; with this restoration of the Venerable Tridentine Mass to the whole of the Roman rite, but also of this very faithful translation of the Novus Ordo Liturgy in closer fidelity to the original Latin texts, should help in some manner to help alleviate and rectify to some degree this rather serious problem. With this enacted and a greater drive towards orthodox Catechesis, we can begin to see the "resurrection" of the Catholic Church from the ashes of Modernism and Post-Modernism, who would've had us auto-demolish our very Church. The Holy Catholic Church will survive; and in the words of our Holy Saviour: "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church."

 

[Fantine]

I wish I was adept at oversimplification.

I wish I could look at a widespread global problem and think that candles, incense and an archaic language could solve everything.

It's not easy being a grownup.

 

[isshinwhat]

I wish I was adept at oversimplification.

Congratulations! You are!

I wish I could look at a widespread global problem and think that candles, incense and an archaic language could solve everything.

It's not easy being a grownup.

Wasn't that easy!?

If you really think anyone believes that, "candles, incense and an archaic language could solve everything," then you are sadly mistaken. But that could explain why you thought that the hippyfication of Mass would solve anything, as well... People are talking about worship, reverent worship, plain and simple; worship that puts you in awe of God and draws you near to him in humility. There are many who, "animated by a false zeal for the Church, lacking the solid safeguards of philosophy and theology, nay more, thoroughly imbued with the poisonous doctrines taught by the enemies of the Church, and lost to all sense of modesty, put themselves forward as reformers of the Church," and the forms of worship they have "reformed" take away from God and place the focus on man.

Vatican II is a convenient excuse for all kinds work "in the spirit of Vatican II." What about the Spirit of Vatican II that said, "3. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority."

What about the Spirit of Vatican II that says, "1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites."

Why was our local organist scolded by the priest for playing the Agnus Dei that the parish had sung/prayed for years?

Sorry, Fantine, but if you really think it's really all about "candles, incense and an archaic language," then you've not heard a word anyone has been saying.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I wish I was adept at oversimplification.

I wish I could look at a widespread global problem and think that candles, incense and an archaic language could solve everything.

It's not easy being a grownup.

I suppose that being condescending would be a part of being adult to, since, I guess "talking down" to me, as if I were some dull-minded simpleton that just "doesn't get" that if we'd all be "diverse" by just embracing our inner-hippy, that it's fine to shirk centuries of solemn worship in an "archaic [precise and dignified]" language, with "incense," and "candles" as if the Mass the shouldn't have such things [wrong.]----but instead, spring up, jump, clap, and dance our way about in Church!

---Gee the Prots have it right, don't they?! C'mon, I don't think so! Let's leave the Prot-style worship in Prot. Churches please, this is Catholic worship: with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass: where Heaven meets Earth, not some hoopla service where everyone does his or her own mind tells them to do at the first spasm, urge, instance----that is being, "random," spontaneous, or "emotional." Let's do something that recognizes or is reflective of this Holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist that is reflective that this holy act where Bread and wine become Christ's true Body and true blood. Not some overly-emotionalistic songs, a sermon based upon the preachers' own private interpretation of Scripture and a mere showing of symbols of just "bread" and wine---or "grape Juice" as in the case in some.

 

[Fantine]

You forget that I attended, probably, 650 Tridentine Masses during my lifetime. And maybe by the time you have attended as many Tridentine Masses as I have, you will realize that there isn't anything magical or transformational about them.

The reverence and solemnity you see comes from there being frequented by a small, esoteric population of extremely solemn and reverent people.

I, on the other hand, went to Tridentine Masses for the general, homogeneous population--the reverent, the not so reverent, the crying babies, the whining children, the elderly ladies in their babushkas with their rosaries ignoring it all, the people standing in the aisles shuffling their feet.

When you add the homogeneous population to the mix, then you have your typical Sunday Mass group--the one difference being that they feel like they are in a foreign film without the benefit of subtitles. Just like in the good old days.

Then, of course, there's the huge number of Catholics who didn't grow up in western European cultures--whose definitions of "reverent" and "solemn" and "worshipful" behavior might include dancing down the aisle to clapping and drumbeats, wearing colorful dashikis and carrying banners.

I do admire your courage, however, in trying to bring the Tridentine Mass to all the irreverent and un-solemn, because when they come and dilute those small numbers of solemn and reverent people, all you'll be left with is a failed solution.

As it was circa 1962.