Birth Defects

[B®ent]

One of my aunt's friends was pregnant with an infant with holoprosencephaly. I never did hear what happened, but I would assume the baby died before or immediately at birth. I've done some research on subject and I don't think any other medical condition has left me so deeply disturbed. Why does God allow these things to happen? What is the purpose of birth defects in God's plan? It doesn't make any sense to me. I suppose, in the long run, it is very humbling.

 

[sk8Joyful]

One of my aunt's friends was pregnant with an infant with holoprosencephaly.

Why does God allow these things to happen?
What is the purpose of birth defects in God's plan? It doesn't make any sense to me. I suppose, in the long run, it is very humbling.

What makes you assume that God "planned" that misfortune?
and
God allows such things to happen because He gave us "freedom-of-choice" - Each of us does the best we can, with the resources we have at any given moment.

 

[B®ent]

What makes you assume that God "planned" that misfortune?
and
God allows such things to happen because He gave us "freedom-of-choice" - Each of us does the best we can, with the resources we have at any given moment.

Everything is part of His plan.
Do you not believe that?

 

[sk8Joyful]

Everything is part of His plan.
Do you not believe that?

While God 'created' satan to give us "choice", God does not make choices for mankind. Men do that on their own. And then, Blame God with "Even that is part of His plan". Two wrongs do not make one right.

(ooops - While that was the first part of my response in another conversation, and has direct-application here too,
most likely will need too much effort to explain it all again, so Believe as you want )

Annie

 

[B®ent]

Annie,

How is trisomy related to man's choice?

 

[sk8Joyful]

Annie,

How is trisomy related to man's choice?

On your site today, I explained how the General-public has by now bought-into this fallacious theory that "Cancer (or insert Birth-defects, or other chronicities) can be genetically-explained", when in reality of the approx. 30,000 genes making up the human-genome, less than 1200 seperate us from animals, and these can not possibly account for the widening variations in biochemical-individuality of 7-Billion+ people, each ably changing their gene-structures continuously. That math fails in adding up.

And God who dearly loves all precious of his little children souls would not (....-up no way, no how) re-arranging the DNA just so his precious little children would be born deformed. I can testify to that.

(ooops, I just realized I am late to somewhere. I will return tomorrow)

Annie

 

[B®ent]

Nice theory, but not compatible with the Bible

[bible]Exodus 4:11[/bible]

 

[sk8Joyful]

Nice theory, but not compatible with the Bible
[bible]Exodus 4:11[/bible]

This impasse will most likely remain, for at least these reasons:
1. While I can understand how one could choose to apply this scripture, to prove that point - it is Interpretation that can well be understood in another light.
&
2. What it says in English (or other translations) is often not how it was written, nor intended, in the original tongue.
&
3. The valid point was made by another member in (previous, related) discussions, that beyond many things not spoken of in the Bible, remain other possibilities...
&
4. Working-friends of mine and I have had personal conversations, with enough of such like-individuals in various adverse circumstances, to gain awareness & know - there is far more to this
than meets the natural eye. I will leave it at that, except to say *Healing-work will continue...*

Fare thee well,

Annie

 

[Data]

On your site today, I explained how the General-public has by now bought-into this fallacious theory that "Cancer (or insert Birth-defects, or other chronicities) can be genetically-explained"

Incorrect.

All congenital diseases are essentially genetic, as they all have some genetic component. The molecular processes proscribed by DNA have failed in their proper function. Trisomy is a result of non-disjunction in the testes or ovaries - and it only occurs because of a loss or failure or absence of genetic programming that can correct or prevent such problems from occuring.

When in reality of the approx. 30,000 genes making up the human-genome, less than 1200 seperate us from animals, and these can not possibly account for the widening variations in biochemical-individuality of 7-Billion+ people, each ably changing their gene-structures continuously. That math fails in adding up.

Also incorrect. Biological variation between people is mainly due to single nucleotide polymorphisms, of which there are millions. It's easily enough to provide the variation we can see.

And God who dearly loves all precious of his little children souls would not (....-up no way, no how) re-arranging the DNA just so his precious little children would be born deformed. I can testify to that.

That one is up to you.

 

[michaelmasdaisy]

I'm not that theologically learned but, given the parameters, I think the real miracle is that such a great number of babies are born so healthy and whole.


...........................................................

 

[steen]

I'm not that theologically learned but, given the parameters, I think the real miracle is that such a great number of babies are born so healthy and whole..

Yes, a lot of things can go wrong. But many things can also be done about it. hence, we have the March of Dimes.

But certainly, genetic diseases are not really part of a "choice" in the zygote, embryo or fetus.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Quote

Originally Posted by: sk8Joyful

On your site today, I explained how the General-public has by now bought-into this fallacious theory that "Cancer (or insert Birth-defects, or other chronicities) can be genetically-explained"

incorrect.
The molecular processes proscribed by DNA have failed in their proper function. Trisomy is a result of non-disjunction in the testes or ovaries - and it only occurs (because of a loss or failure or absence of genetic programming) that can correct or prevent such problems from occuring.

Your CF-bio identifies you as an 'Atheistic - evolutionist'; and from that Godforsaken belief/model, you are but left with obscuring what, for others not thusly limited, remains possible.

GOD, first & foundationally masterfully created and programmed our Soul, & Mind; before at last also our physical dna. The reason it's important for people to remember this, is because our Soul/Mind-team can change its physical/bodily-dna structure, as has been proven.

Pre-birth, any number of dysfunctional conditions, can cause
challenges:
1. A mother's ingested-Pharmaceuticals
2. A mother's emotional Toxicities, and
others.
When we each were in the womb developing, we had much more limited behavioral choices. And sometimes, wrong choices are made at that stage of mortal development.

All congenital diseases are essentially genetic, as they all have some genetic component.

The operative word here being "component" - iow, only a part of what else may really be pulling the strings behind the scenes.

When you Intelligently ask yourself: "And what else is going on??, that I have not yet carefully considered" - you may make some astonishing additional discoveries.

Quote

When in reality of the approx. 30,000 genes making up the human-genome, less than 1200 seperate us from animals, and these can not possibly account for the widening variations in biochemical-individuality of 7-Billion+ people, each ably changing their gene-structures continuously. That math fails in adding up.

Also incorrect.
Biological variation between people is mainly due to single nucleotide polymorphisms, of which there are millions. It's easily enough to provide the variation we can see.

But you must remember, that us humans are much more than only some "biochemical machine" - for you doctors to switch off, whenever you fancy.

This is evidently proven by people who, for example from various behavioral-strategies including cancering, - are guided in deciding: "No thanks, I much prefer to Praise! my God, and live my life as abundantly constructive as He, mortally living as Jesus, encouraged us.

How do I know this?: I'm one such example, and have spent 2+ decades, teaching other people *how*.

That one is up to you.

Well actually, there are a few others so engaged in this *joyful work*

Cheers!

Annie

 

[lostchildhood]

i am a bit confused, are you saying before we are born, when we are still in the whom. I you saying we are capable of thinking about life, and what is right and what is wrong.that god, says befoe we are bore we have free will, and we make bad choices and that is why we have birth defects. Because if that is what you are saying that does not sound like something we would be capaable of knowing right form wrong. I was born with spina bifida, AND NF both which I believe can be passed down. I am not a bad person, i have had a hard life, I have been abused, died on an operating table, been in a coma for 4 months, had a trac, been on life support chest tubes I am a good person I help others whenever I can . so why whould god bee punishing me lostchildhood

 

[steen]

GOD, first & foundationally masterfully created and programmed our Soul, & Mind; before at last also our physical dna. The reason it's important for people to remember this, is because our Soul/Mind-team can change its physical/bodily-dna structure, as has been proven.

Would you mind providing that proof?

Pre-birth, any number of dysfunctional conditions, can cause
challenges:
1. A mother's ingested-Pharmaceuticals
2. A mother's emotional Toxicities, and
others.

And genetic birth defects. Where do you think Cystic Fibrosis comes from?

When we each were in the womb developing, we had much more limited behavioral choices.

At what gestational age areyou saying that we have the capacity for choices?

And sometimes, wrong choices are made at that stage of mortal development.

Could you give some xamples?

The operative word here being "component" - iow, only a part of what else may really be pulling the strings behind the scenes.

When you Intelligently ask yourself: "And what else is going on??, that I have not yet carefully considered" - you may make some astonishing additional discoveries.

Ah, you mean like genetics?

This is evidently proven by people who, for example from various behavioral-strategies including cancering, - are guided in deciding: "No thanks, I much prefer to Praise! my God, and live my life as abundantly constructive as He, mortally living as Jesus, encouraged us.

So you are suggesting that people reject medical care for prayer?

How do I know this?: I'm one such example, and have spent 2+ decades, teaching other people *how*.

Well actually, there are a few others so engaged in this *joyful work*

This almost reminds me of the "Darwin Award," people who go so against common sense that they end up dying and removing their genes from the gene pool.

Are you saying that medical science is bogus?

 

[Data]

Your CF-bio identifies you as an 'Atheistic - evolutionist'; and from that Godforsaken belief/model, you are but left with obscuring what, for others not thusly limited, remains possible.

You know medical science isn't limited to Atheists, my Christian classmates will tell you exactly the same thing.

Pre-birth, any number of dysfunctional conditions, can cause
challenges:
1. A mother's ingested-Pharmaceuticals
2. A mother's emotional Toxicities, and
others.

Emotional toxicity?... look you're going to have to provide evidence for that one.

As to your idea that congenital disease only occurs inside the uterus, continuing on the same example, the cause of trisomy occurs before conception in the development of the egg or sperm. It is quite literally impossible for a trisomy to occur after conception.

Of course you're right in that pharmaceuticals can cause congenital disease, such as thalidomide, but the occurance of that is the vast vast minority when compared to genetic disease.

This is evidently proven by people who, for example from various behavioral-strategies including cancering, - are guided in deciding: "No thanks, I much prefer to Praise! my God, and live my life as abundantly constructive as He, mortally living as Jesus, encouraged us.

Are you seriously suggesting that God is against medicine? Where on earth does the bible say that?

Because I suspect it doesn't.

 

[ScMay]

Your CF-bio identifies you as an 'Atheistic - evolutionist'; and from that Godforsaken belief/model, you are but left with obscuring what, for others not thusly limited, remains possible.

What is possible and what is likely are two entirely differnet things. It is POSSIBLE that there really is Chi energy and it is the key to curing all disease yet I don't see you advocating this, medical science ignores it because it is so laughably unlikely but why do you?

GOD, first & foundationally masterfully created and programmed our Soul, & Mind; before at last also our physical dna. The reason it's important for people to remember this, is because our Soul/Mind-team can change its physical/bodily-dna structure, as has been proven.

What has been 'proven' is that stress can be a contributing factor in many diseases and chronic stress allows for more mutations to build up in cells because the DNA repair functions are inhibited. Stress is basically innapproiately activated response in this case. I doubt ths is what you were refering to with the Soul/Mind-team thing though.

Pre-birth, any number of dysfunctional conditions, can cause
challenges:
1. A mother's ingested-Pharmaceuticals
2. A mother's emotional Toxicities, and
others.

True pharmaceuticals can cause dysfunctional conditions - but whose fault is it? Often no ones as no one knew that it would do this to the child and the pharmaceutical is taken with the good intentions. So why should a child suffer for the rest of their life for this.
As for emotional toxicities - what on earth are you talking about. Please provide a defiition and source because 'emotions' have not been show to harm a developing feotus as fr as I am aware.

When we each were in the womb developing, we had much more limited behavioral choices. And sometimes, wrong choices are made at that stage of mortal development.

So a developing feotus should be given a horrible punishment for the rest of its life because it chose.... what exactly? During alot of the time a foetus doesn't even have a functioning central nervous system and a BORN child can't even comprehend that it can control its arms let alone anything else. So how can a 'loving' and 'just' God reign down a punishment on an unborn FEOTUS for a 'behavioural choice', especial when adults who can understand what they are doing get no such punishment when they do things that are actually worth punishment! I find your viewpoint morals and ethics horrifying to say the least.

When you Intelligently ask yourself: "And what else is going on??, that I have not yet carefully considered" - you may make some astonishing additional discoveries.

To bad you haven't found any of them (luckily there a lots of doctors and other scientists that have made and will continue to make these additional discoveries - generally involving environmental influences on the phenotype of these diseases)

Quote

When in reality of the approx. 30,000 genes making up the human-genome, less than 1200 seperate us from animals, and these can not possibly account for the widening variations in biochemical-individuality of 7-Billion+ people, each ably changing their gene-structures continuously. That math fails in adding up.

You obviously do not coprehend what is meant by genes, yes there are far less genes present than you would expect but not all genes are identical - they have what are known as alleles - there is varitation within genes. Also there is not '1200' seperating us from animals, this is a blatant false asertion as it is common knowldege that the amount of DNA we have different to animals depends on what animal you are refering to (chimp = close, bird = far more differences). You say '1200' like ther is some special distinction between animals and humans that does not exist between animal and animal.

But you must remember, that us humans are much more than only some "biochemical machine" - for you doctors to switch off, whenever you fancy.

Strawman.

This is evidently proven by people who, for example from various behavioral-strategies including cancering, - are guided in deciding: "No thanks, I much prefer to Praise! my God, and live my life as abundantly constructive as He, mortally living as Jesus, encouraged us.

How do I know this?: I'm one such example, and have spent 2+ decades, teaching other people *how*.

I have no idea what "cancering" is - never herd of it and google doesn't help so could you elaborate? I hope you don't expect people to turn away from medical treatment and expect prayer to help them, especially when a few months ago a study showed that knowing you are being prayed for makes you LESS likely to recover without complications. Doctors spend years learning and training how to heal people, they have 100's of years of research behind their knowledge, without them millions would die needlessly - what akes you so sure you can do better and if you can how come you haven't proven it (if you could you'd have the nobel prize for medicine)

Well actually, there are a few others so engaged in this *joyful work*

The *joyful work* of brainwashing people into kiling themselves via refusal of treatment - how many are you responsible for?


My Statement to sk8Joyful:
What is painfully obvious about you is that A. you have little/no understanding of genetics or evolution B. have little/no knowledge about health professionals. Why are you trying to spark up a debate in the area for medical professions when you are not only not part of the medical profession but also so woefully ignorant that you don't know basic first year medical school knowledge? (I should know, I just finished the first semester of my bachelor of Medicine/Surgery and alot of the stuff I just discussed was covered during that time). If someone with my rudimentary knowledge of medicine can poke so many holes in your argument you are way out of your depth here.

 

[sk8Joyful]

I am not a bad person, i have had a hard life, I have been abused,

I have found in my work with mostly children (& a few adults) - that most had a difficult, utmost-challenging Beginning, even when he/she was still developing in the womb. That plays out as a common denominator repeatedly (with rare exceptions) - so what you are saying fits that picture, sadly.

Like God, I am sorry that you had such an unfortunate beginning experience..

I am a good person I help others whenever I can .
so
why whould god be punishing me.

That is another unfortunate mistake most of my Christian brothers & sisters make. They assume & conclude, erroneously so, that for whatever circumstances they fail in finding a ready explanation for - it MUST be "God's will, doing & punishment". ~
But most of the time, especially for example where such people via Guidance have allowed *God-blest self-healing* to take place, apparently - God had nothing to do with the dis-comfort, dis-ease, sickness, and other evils.

Consider, if you will, God loves *you, dear one* soo much, that He created your own Soul, and then additionally blessed you with a Mind, a mind you can think of like a most exquisite Learning-computer that God pre-programmed for *self-healing*. And then, when you wanted to, you were given the additional opportunity to be conceived-physically, and this Mind of yours learned to develop your own body, inside your mother's womb.

Now, God did all these things for you out of His perfect Love, with only one intention: He wants your best, finest, highest, happiest Joy; truely He does Believe this, and more - which is why God was willing to take on physical-form, as a man, and suffer & die for you, me, and all other humans' mistaken sins. He gave His life, so you, me, and any who will just simply *Accept God/Jesus as our Savior, and Welcome Him into our being, will enjoy Life-everlasting, with God forever*.
In other words, GOD is not of a nature to harm/hurt you.

And the fact that you were harmfully influenced by your fighting parents, - yet, you "help others whenever I can" - speaks worlds about what a kind & goodly person you are. Good, for you! ~ And often, such individuals can learn how to positively help yet other people, in like straits - find abundant joyful happiness.

i am a bit confused, are you saying before we are born,
we have free will, and we make bad choices and that is why we have birth defects?
I was born with spina bifida, and NF - both which I believe can be passed down.

re "passed-down": Was your own sister also born with your health-challenges, Identical to yours? -
Or is that just more of "man's theories" - you've heard?

Did you know, that babies in the womb can hear? - and this Mind of yours (not the brain it later developed in the womb) can make other decisions at the level beneath your conscious awareness, what we call the sub-conscious. (As an example, you do not need to think consciously about beating your heart, or breathing, or self-healing from a sunburn, or a trillion+ other actions like these - because your own (along with subconscious) Mind has learned to take good care of all these actions for you, right?

Well, this same subconscious & other Mind, was also making decisions for you, while it was developing your own body in the womb. But there, it was much more limited in its choices, and sometimes, it makes mistakes.

But know, it can learn to act better for you. I helped a few such children already: kids (formerly) on Vents, in wheelchairs, you name it.

Think about these things, and allow God/Jesus to bless you!

Annie

 

[HeatherJay]

Moved from Professions-Medical to Philosophy.

 

[steen]

I have found in my work with mostly children (& a few adults) - that most had a difficult, utmost-challenging Beginning, even when he/she was still developing in the womb.

Even then, huh? And where is the evidence of this? How do you know? is this just you expressing your belief and wishful thinking as "evidence," or do you have anything verifiable?

That plays out as a common denominator repeatedly (with rare exceptions) - so what you are saying fits that picture, sadly.

Fascinating claim. I work in this field, and I see no evidence of this prevalence you are talking about.

...But most of the time, especially for example where such people via Guidance have allowed *God-blest self-healing* to take place, apparently - God had nothing to do with the dis-comfort, dis-ease, sickness, and other evils.

What is this self-healing you are talking about, and what is its evidence of occurring as you claim it to do? Is this anything more than a "just because I say so" misrepresentation of wishful thinking as a "fact"?

Consider, if you will, God loves *you, dear one* soo much, that He created your own Soul, and then additionally blessed you with a Mind, a mind you can think of like a most exquisite Learning-computer that God pre-programmed for *self-healing*. And then, when you wanted to, you were given the additional opportunity to be conceived-physically,

Really? Conception is a result of the zygote wishing to be conceived? This is getting more and more weird. You REALLY need to start providing some actual evidence for this stuff unless you want to disregard it as utter nonsense.

and this Mind of yours learned to develop your own body, inside your mother's womb.

There is no evidence of a "mind" until late in pregnancy, and no evidence that this "mind" directs any kind of physical growth. Your claim sounds like utter nonsense. It sounds like something you got bamboozled about on some crackpot website.

Did you know, that babies in the womb can hear?

There are no babies until birth. The developmental stage before birth is "Fetus." And no, the fetus is not able to "hear" anything until the end of the 26th week of pregnancy, when the thalamocortical tract connects to the cortex.

- and this Mind of yours (not the brain it later developed in the womb)

So if the mind doesn't reside in the brain, where is it? this sounds more and more like crackpot nonsense.

can make other decisions at the level beneath your conscious awareness, what we call the sub-conscious. (As an example, you do not need to think consciously about beating your heart, or breathing, or self-healing from a sunburn, or a trillion+ other actions like these - because your own (along with subconscious) Mind has learned to take good care of all these actions for you, right?

No, those are reflexes. There is no mind involved. You seem seriously in need of reading up on this stuff. You are pushing pure mysticism, not a lick of reality.

Well, this same subconscious & other Mind, was also making decisions for you, while it was developing your own body in the womb. But there, it was much more limited in its choices, and sometimes, it makes mistakes.

It doesn't exist to begin with.

But know, it can learn to act better for you. I helped a few such children already: kids (formerly) on Vents, in wheelchairs, you name it.

Ah, a fascinating claim. This sounds like one of the quacks who claim healing, get a bunch of money and then leave town before they are found out to be quacks.

 

[catlover]

What makes you assume that God "planned" that misfortune?
and
God allows such things to happen because He gave us "freedom-of-choice" - Each of us does the best we can, with the resources we have at any given moment.

How can an unborn baby make a choice to have, or not have a birth defect?