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For just about the same amount of time Christians also believed slavery was okay, so what does that mean.
It does, you just don't acknowledge it.
For 1900+ years all Christians believed that this is what the Bible said, and so did the Jews.
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You guys might as well be honest with yourselves: It is inconvenient, expensive and time consuming to have children, and you would rather have the time and money to yourself. It doesn't matter what the Bible says, because to you, the only things the Bible says is sin are the things that don't inconvenience you to greatly.
Find me an official Church document endorcing the practice of slavery.
The form of ethnically based, dehumanizing slavery that was became popular in western Europe and the Americas was imported from Islam, was foriegn to the early Church, and was absent in the Orthodox world.
In modern reformed Judaism, not orthodox and ultra-orthodox Judahism.Stop putting words into our mouths. Children are not inconvenient. I want very much to have children. But only when I'm stable in my marriage, financially, and mentally and am ready for children.
And you're wrong, in judaism most forms of contraception are perfectly acceptable.
Your point is not made. Slavery was never supported by the Church. Slavery in ancient times was much different than what slavery came to be in more recent times. Support for slavery, esp. in its later incarnation, was something generated in later times by only a subset of Christianity. Either way it is a stupid argument, since it falls under neither of the catagories of being universally held or an ancient doctrine.Why, whats the point of that. The fact is for close to 1900 years Christians and by extension the church supported slavery. De facto support is as binding if not more so than any document, because de facto is actual practice.
Where it came from is irrelevant. And I suggest you thoroughly read about the treatment of slaves in the OT.
It was not a walk in the park to be slave.
At any rate this is off topic, my point was made.
You didnt answer my question however regarding where in the Bible it clearly, unequivocally states that shall not use contraceptives.
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In modern reformed Judaism, not orthodox and ultra-orthodox Judahism.
Fine, could you please answer the where in the Bible question?
ETA; I have not read this thread so if it is here I have not seen it.
Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.
Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.
Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground.
Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.
Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.
Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.
Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.
Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).
Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.
Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law.
Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.
1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done."
Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.
Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse.
Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one. Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity.
Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God's will. With contraception, a couple declares, "God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no." Contraception is a grave act of selfishness.
Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God.
Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. Just as Christ's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife's love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life.
Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.
Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.
1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will.
Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.
Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.
Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g., surgery to prevent conception) is gravely sinful. Many Protestant churches reject this most basic moral truth.
1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace.
Deut. 22:13-21 – these verses also show that God condemns pre-marital intercourse. The living expression of God’s creative love is reserved for a sacramental marriage between one man and one woman. Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20 - these verses mention the word "sorcery." The Greek word is "pharmakeia" which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful. Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall). Contraception is a lie that has deceived millions, but the Church is holding her arms open wide to welcome back her children who have strayed from the truth.
Sorry thats a lot of reading please just highlight the one saying 'do not take contraception'.
Sorry thats a lot of reading please just highlight the one saying 'do not take contraception'.
I don't have a 'dog in this fight' and have pretty much stayed out of it. I'm not familiar with the verses or arguments used.This is always the main arguement:
"Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground."
Of course they don't realize that God killed Onan not for practicing contraception, but because of his outright refusal to perform his duty to his brother's wife.
If this had been his own wife, the outcome would have been much different.
Listen to the way it's worded:
"But Onan knew the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother's wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother.
There isn't one. That's our whole point. Cept he disagrees because his dogma demands it so he takes a whole buncha passages about multiplying and having kids and distorts it into "Don't ever use protection".
I'm curious, if a guy has AIDS, and he's married to his wife, been cheating, but that actually accepted in some parts of the world, like Africa. Anyway, he has AIDS, and wants have sex with his wife, or she wants to have sex with him, is it immoral to use a condom then?
The "magic" answer is, the allegedly moral answer is: they should abstain from sex.
For some reason, because early church fathers were afraid of their phisiological responses to women, they put a taboo on sex...well...sex between a married couple isn't dirty, even if it doesn't involve making children.
No.And aren't we not supposed to withhold sex from our spouse? So if we use birth control we sin, if we abstain we sin, and if we have sex we might have a child that could put us in a very stressful financial situation.
See the illogicality?
This is always the main arguement:
"Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground."
Of course they don't realize that God killed Onan not for practicing contraception, but because of his outright refusal to perform his duty to his brother's wife.
If this had been his own wife, the outcome would have been much different.
Listen to the way it's worded:
"But Onan knew the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother's wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother.
^Then why are there so many families with more children than they can afford?
How do you explain this away I'm curious:
Like who? Cannot afford, as in all the kids do not get their own cell phone, or as in the poor kids have to share a room?
Explain what away? His sin was two fold. If it was just because he would not give his brother a heir, then Judah would have suffered the same fate.
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