BIRTH CONTROL OF ANY SORT TAKES LIFE

Founder said:

What is to be confused about here. I said what I mean and mean what I said. Deal with it as you wish. A child is just as dead if the parents kill the child one second before it can be conceived or one second after it was conceived. "LIFE DOES NOT BEGIN AT CONCEPTION, PERIOD BUT SOMETIME BEFORE."

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I haven't combed through this thread in its entirety to know if anyone has brought this up (mainly because people keep getting off topic and I 100% disagree with the title of the thread).

What about nocturnal emissions? This is something that happens involuntary and more commonly with adolescents going through puberty.

Founder said:

Nothing wrong with sex, morning, noon, or night, BUT if you follow the Bible, it says that you are not to "go in unto" your wife during the entire days of her fertility which by Leviticus is roughly 15 days of the month. This kind of abstinence has many benefits and does not intentionally kill children, and is God's law. The problem is all in the INTENTIONS. If the intention is to kill a possible child then that is the same as killing a child. INTENTION TO KILL IN GOD'S EYES, AND IN THE EYES OF A WORLDLY COURT IS TANTAMOUNT TO SOME LEVEL OF GUILT. Stop looking for loopholes. FounderChurch@Gmail.Com

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Here is your list of other laws you must obey or you go to Hell.
In some cases immediately....


1. Burning any yeast or honey in offerings to God Lev(2:11)

2. Failing to include salt in the offering plate (2:13)

3. Eating french fries or snacks (3:17)

4. Eating sausages (3:17)

5. Failing to report cars speeding or people not crossing in the crosswalk (5:1)

6. Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve been told about (5:1)

7. Touching an unclean animal (5:2)

8. Carelessly making an oath (5:4)

9. Deceiving a neighbour about something trusted to them (6:2)

10. Finding lost property and lying about it (6:3)

11. Bringing unauthorised fire before God (10:1)

12. Letting your hair become unkempt (10:6)

13. Tearing your clothes (10:6)

14. Drinking Communion Wine in church (10:9)

15. Eating an animal which doesn’t both chew cud and has a divided hoof (cf: camel, rabbit, pig) (11:4-7)

16. Touching the carcass of any of the above (problems here for rugby) (11:8)

17. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any seafood without fins or scales (11:10-12)

18. Eating – or touching the carcass of - eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, the red kite, any kind of black kite, any kind of raven, the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat. (11:13-19)

19. Eating – or touching the carcass of – flying insects with four legs, unless those legs are jointed (11:20-22)

20. Eating any animal which walks on all four and has paws (good news for cats) (11:27)

21. Eating – or touching the carcass of – the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon (11:29)

22. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any creature which crawls on many legs, or its belly (11:41-42)

23. Going to church within 33 days after giving birth to a boy (12:4)

24. Going to church within 66 days after giving birth to a girl (12:5)

25. Having sex with your mother (18:7)

26. Having sex with your father’s wife (18:8)

27. Having sex with your sister (18:9)

28. Having sex with your granddaughter (18:10)

29. Having sex with your half-sister (18:11)

30. Having sex with your biological aunt (18:12-13)

31. Having sex with your uncle’s wife (18:14)

32. Having sex with your daughter-in-law (18:15)

33. Having sex with your sister-in-law (18:16)

34. Having sex with a woman and also having sex with her daughter or granddaughter (18:17)

35. Marrying your wife’s sister while your wife still lives (18:18)

36. Having sex with a woman during her period (18:19)

37. Having sex with your neighbour’s wife (18:20)

38. Giving your children to be sacrificed to Molek (18:21)

39. Having sex with a man “as one does with a woman” (18:22)

40. Having sex with an animal (18:23)

41. Making idols or “metal gods” (19:4)

42. Reaping to the very edges of a field (19:9)

43. Picking up grapes that have fallen in your vineyard (19:10)

44. Stealing (19:11)

45. Lying (19:11)

46. Swearing falsely on God’s name (19:12)

47. Defrauding your neighbour (19:13)

48. Holding back the wages of an employee overnight (19:13)

49. Cursing the deaf or abusing the blind (19:14)

50. Perverting justice, showing partiality to either the poor or the rich (19:15)

51. Spreading slander (19:16)

52. Doing anything to endanger a neighbour’s life (19:16)

53. Seeking revenge or bearing a grudge (19:18)

54. Mixing fabrics in clothing (19:19)

55. Cross-breeding animals (19:19)

56. Planting different seeds in the same field (19:19)

57. Sleeping with another man’s slave (19:20)

58. Eating fruit from a tree within four years of planting it (19:23)

59. Practising divination or seeking omens (19:26)

60. Trimming your beard (19:27)

61. Cutting your hair at the sides (19:27)

62. Getting tattoos (19:28)

63. Making your daughter prostitute herself (19:29)

64. Turning to mediums or spiritualists (19:31)

65. Not standing in the presence of the elderly (19:32)

66. Mistreating foreigners – “the foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born” (19:33-34)

67. Using dishonest weights and scales (19:35-36)

68. Cursing your father or mother (punishable by death) (20:9)

69. Marrying a prostitute, divorcee or widow if you are a priest (21:7,13)

70. Entering a place where there’s a dead body as a priest (21:11)

71. Slaughtering a cow/sheep and its young on the same day (22:28)

72. Working on the Sabbath (23:3)

73. Blasphemy (punishable by stoning to death) (24:14)

74. Inflicting an injury; killing someone else’s animal; killing a person must be punished in kind (24:17-22)

75. Selling land permanently (25:23)






You must have lost your New Testament?

For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. ...
Now death's stinger is sin, and sin's power is the Law

17. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any seafood without fins or scales (11:10-12)

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No! I just made some shrimp stock today! Oh well. Worth it.

Founder said:

What is to be confused about here. I said what I mean and mean what I said. Deal with it as you wish. A child is just as dead if the parents kill the child one second before it can be conceived or one second after it was conceived.

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There is no child before a child has been conceived.
You can't kill something that isn't there.

Birth control in any form, condoms or the Pill, is inherently evil. The Bible tells us in Genesis 1:28 to be fruitful and multiply, which is to say that we Christian should have six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, or even twelve children. (In fact, if a Christian can possibly have more than a dozen children, then he should surely go for it and have twenty or more offspring.) For a husband to have sexual relations with his wife for mere pleasure and not procreation is therefore immoral and unbiblical.

A Christian who is weak in faith may argue that it isn’t wise to “breed irresponsibly,” whatever that means. Oh, really? Well, if you’re saved and strong in faith, God will provide you with whatever assistance you may need for a big family (Philippians 4:19).

Angel Wings 1288 said:

Birth control in any form, condoms or the Pill, is inherently evil. The Bible tells us in Genesis 1:28 to be fruitful and multiply, which is to say that we Christian should have six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, or even twelve children. (In fact, if a Christian can possibly have more than a dozen children, then he should surely go for it and have twenty or more offspring.) For a husband to have sexual relations with his wife for mere pleasure and not procreation is therefore immoral and unbiblical.

A Christian who is weak in faith may argue that it isn’t wise to “breed irresponsibly,” whatever that means. Oh, really? Well, if you’re saved and strong in faith, God will provide you with whatever assistance you may need for a big family (Philippians 4:19).

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The issue is we have been fruitful and multiplied and now we are killing our planet with over population. It just isn't reasonable or responsible to say that we should roll the dice and have more kids. Birth control will help impoverished countries in africa reduce the risk of spreading aids and other stds which would dramatically increase the standard of living for thousands, if not millions, of people. Christianity plays a big role in 3rd world countries. But telling them that birth control is worse than having your family die of a terrible disease is outrageous. Birth control saves lives, prevents, for the most part, the spread of disease and helps with already high numbers of orphans.

Angel Wings 1288 said:

Birth control in any form, condoms or the Pill, is inherently evil. The Bible tells us in Genesis 1:28 to be fruitful and multiply, which is to say that we Christian should have six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, or even twelve children. (In fact, if a Christian can possibly have more than a dozen children, then he should surely go for it and have twenty or more offspring.) For a husband to have sexual relations with his wife for mere pleasure and not procreation is therefore immoral and unbiblical.

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Would that we could have been as faithful in obedience to other commands. I am not certain however it seems to me to read this verse as declaring any form of birth control evil is at best a big stretch. To have a dozen living children in this period would have been remarkable, I am sure in happened, but infant mortality and death of the mother in childbirth were much higher. I have done some work on my family tree, and only 200 years ago the infant mortality I am seeing are around 50%, and many of the males have had successive marriages as women died in childbirth.


I find this a fascinating peek into the life of King David, who I think we may hold was not entirely virtuous all matters pertaining the heart or the bed chamber. I am not sure really what we are to make of it however. I think it is important to understand the the more living children you had, the more likely it was that you would be looked after in your senior years. Those who were childless had none to care for them. We live in a different era and the abundance of children is not necessarily the way to make sure you have provision for your later years and indeed may be the complete inverse.

The Marriage rite of the Book of Common Prayer 1661/2 speaks of the reasons for marriage in the preface including:


I think that the suggestion of sex inside of marriage for other than procreation being sin is poorly thought out and I think a proposition that would be difficult to support biblically.


In case I have not been clear, I fundamentally, significantly, and with good cause disagree with what is put in post #146

Angel Wings 1288 said:

Birth control in any form, condoms or the Pill, is inherently evil. The Bible tells us in Genesis 1:28 to be fruitful and multiply, which is to say that we Christian should have six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, or even twelve children. (In fact, if a Christian can possibly have more than a dozen children, then he should surely go for it and have twenty or more offspring.) For a husband to have sexual relations with his wife for mere pleasure and not procreation is therefore immoral and unbiblical.

A Christian who is weak in faith may argue that it isn’t wise to “breed irresponsibly,” whatever that means. Oh, really? Well, if you’re saved and strong in faith, God will provide you with whatever assistance you may need for a big family (Philippians 4:19).

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This is a very trusting approach. You are right. God fulfils His promises to those who trust Him.

On the basis of trust I agree with you.

Understanding of course not every marital attempt produces a pregnancy. However, such is a natural occurrence.

We must also take into account there are couples who cannot have children. When they have marital relations they know they will not procreate.

Much more difficult to tell such a couple what they do is immoral. It's not.

Marital relations are intimate and loving. If a child is conceived, the joy is so much more.

scottyp588 said:

The issue is we have been fruitful and multiplied and now we are killing our planet with over population. It just isn't reasonable or responsible to say that we should roll the dice and have more kids. Birth control will help impoverished countries in africa reduce the risk of spreading aids and other stds which would dramatically increase the standard of living for thousands, if not millions, of people. Christianity plays a big role in 3rd world countries. But telling them that birth control is worse than having your family die of a terrible disease is outrageous. Birth control saves lives, prevents, for the most part, the spread of disease and helps with already high numbers of orphans.

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Your view of procreation is grim. You automatically assume that making big families must equate to more HIV/AIDS, diseases, and orphans, and lead to a lower standard of living. Don’t you have any faith that God will help people who procreate a lot?

Consider Philippians 4:19: “God will supply all your needs according to the riches and glory in Jesus.” To put it simply, God provides for you if you’re saved. Any man who follows our Lord’s holy commandment to “be fruitful and multiply” will have every need met by God providing for him. Anyone who has a dozen children need not worry because God will give him the help he needs.

Birth control is indeed worse than diseases like malaria. If everyone had a cynical view of families like you, then each woman in the world would have one or zero children, and humanity would be demographically killing itself to a worse extent than the Bubonic Plague event. Knowing this, how could you possibly argue that birth control saves lives? If anything, birth control takes lives.

Angel Wings 1288 said:

Birth control in any form, condoms or the Pill, is inherently evil.

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No.

Angel Wings 1288 said:

The Bible tells us in Genesis 1:28 to be fruitful and multiply, which is to say that we Christian should have six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, or even twelve children. (In fact, if a Christian can possibly have more than a dozen children, then he should surely go for it and have twenty or more offspring.)

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I'm hoping this isn't serious.

Angel Wings 1288 said:

For a husband to have sexual relations with his wife for mere pleasure and not procreation is therefore immoral and unbiblical.

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No it's not.
It's not at all immoral to want to have sex with your wife/husband. Someone else's wife/husband, yes -not your own.

Angel Wings 1288 said:

A Christian who is weak in faith may argue that it isn’t wise to “breed irresponsibly,” whatever that means. Oh, really? Well, if you’re saved and strong in faith, God will provide you with whatever assistance you may need for a big family (Philippians 4:19).

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That's a rather judgemental statement to make. But if you're serious, maybe you'd better fly to Africa and tell folk that their poverty is their own fault for not having enough faith or trusting God.

Angel Wings 1288 said:

Consider Philippians 4:19: “God will supply all your needs according to the riches and glory in Jesus.” To put it simply, God provides for you if you’re saved. Any man who follows our Lord’s holy commandment to “be fruitful and multiply” will have every need met by God providing for him. Anyone who has a dozen children need not worry because God will give him the help he needs.

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If you take verses out of context and try to build a doctrine on them, you can prove anything you like.

God told Adam and Eve and then Noah to "go forth and multiply"; at a time when there were not many people on earth. There are billions more people in the world today; some countries are overpopulated, others have widespread poverty.
Jesus gave us commandments to love as he loved, to tell others about him, to be perfect as God is perfect, to preach the Gospel, etc. He did not teach how many children we should have, or say that, after we have been saved we are commanded to go forth and multiply."
Having children, and the number we have, is a personal choice; not a command.

Angel Wings 1288 said:

Birth control in any form, condoms or the Pill, is inherently evil. The Bible tells us in Genesis 1:28 to be fruitful and multiply, which is to say that we Christian should have six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, or even twelve children. (In fact, if a Christian can possibly have more than a dozen children, then he should surely go for it and have twenty or more offspring.) For a husband to have sexual relations with his wife for mere pleasure and not procreation is therefore immoral and unbiblical.

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Genesis 1:28 - And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

I guess what I find most difficult from the above quote is that it seems that based upon Genesis 1:28 we are able to draw out the following:

• 1. Be fruitful and multiply necessarily means that couples should have the maximum number of children possible.
  2. Birth control in any form is inherently evil. Thus, abstinence during ovulation is sin.
  3. Enjoying one's spouse sexually is wrong.

I could be missing something, but I don't see any of those three points taught in Genesis 1:28. I think you have to do some really magical reading into the passage to declare those 3 points as teachings from this passage.

First off, why would we consider a couple stopping at 7 children as not having been fruitful and multiply? Where does the passage teach that in order to accomplish fruitful and multiply that it must necessarily mean the maximum they can biologically produce? Second, not having sex is a form of birth control. For people to say that any form of birth control is wrong must necessarily, in order to be consistent, assert that any time you're not having sex while you could produce a child that you're sinning. Just imagine that for a minute. You really want to argue that? Finally, why in the world would enjoying one's spouse physically be wrong? Where does the passage say that? Where does the passage say anything related to our enjoyment of our spouses from a physical standpoint?

I can't help but just shake my head at the amount of material we take into Scripture at times. It's just utterly shocking how hard we work to make Scripture support ideas that we've come up with - even when it's beyond obvious that the passages we use aren't talking about the things we're trying to make other people believe.

Founder, thank you for commenting on my response to Angel Wings 1288. However, telling me that #3 is a crazy thing made up by me doesn't really show reading comprehension, because I was outlining to AngelWings a number of commands that they were deriving specifically from a passage that weren't there. So while I agree with you that #3 is a crazy made up thing, it wasn't a crazy made up thing by me.

Now, if you would like to actually engage me in a response that I made to you, that would be great. Reply #140 was directed specifically to you.

Founder, the overall problem with your position is that it's based upon a misunderstanding of human life. Your entire argument rests upon the premise that human life does not begin at conception, but that it begins sometime before conception. Can you expound on what that means and what it looks like? Can you explain to me when my life actually began?

Founder, your above post shows some serious passion and heart, I commend you for that. What I just find so discouraging is that your mission is based upon an entirely false premise that life begins before conception. The Biblical references to God knowing us before birth are acknowledgments of God's omniscience, not of our pre-existing before conception.

I did not exist outside the mind of God until my parents conceived me.

You talk about logic and how people deny it, but you seem to be on the short end of the stick in regards to logic on this one. It is impossible logically, impossible physically, and impossible metaphysically to kill a human life that does not yet exist. And a human life does not exist until it is conceived in a womb.

Can you provide an example in Scripture of a human that pre-existed the womb but that did not come to be?

Ran a search like you requested. It looks like you belong to a cult? Your doctrinal statement is certainly not "Christian"

We believe in God, the Living Spirit Almighty; one indestructible, absolute and self-existent Cause. This One manifests Itself in and through all creation but is not absorbed by Its creation. The manifest universe is the body of God; it is the logical and necessary outcome of the infinite self-knowingness of God.

We believe in the incarnation of the Spirit in all people and that all people are incarnations of the One Spirit.

We believe in the eternality, the immortality and the continuity of the individual soul, forever and ever expanding.

We believe that the Kingdom of Heaven is within us and that we experience this Kingdom to the degree that we become conscious of it.

We believe the ultimate goal of life to be a complete emancipation from all discord of every nature, and that this goal is sure to be attained by all.

We believe in the unity of all life, and that the highest God and the innermost God is one God.

We believe that God is personal to all who feel this Indwelling Presence.

We believe in the direct revelation of Truth through the intuitive and spiritual nature of each person, and that anyone may become a revealer of Truth who lives in close contact with the Indwelling God.

We believe that the Universal Spirit, which is God, operates through a Universal Mind which is the Law of God; and that we are surrounded by this Creative Mind which receives the direct impress of our thought and acts upon it.

We believe in the healing of the sick through the power of this Mind.

We believe in the control of conditions through the power of this Mind.

We believe in the eternal Goodness, the eternal Loving-kindness and the eternal Givingness of Life to all.

We believe in our own soul, our own spirit and our own destiny; for we understand that the life of all is God.