BIRTH CONTROL OF ANY SORT TAKES LIFE

Goatee · Feb 10, 2017

Contraception is not abortion.

The egg is nothing on its own as is the sperm. Plenty die through natural means without birth control.

Stopping a sperm interacting with an egg is not abortion. For me. a Catholic, i see no harm in 'birth control'. The pill, the condom etc are a means to stop the 2 meeting.

Personally, i see no harm in it. Ok, i have read in the Bible where people call up how it can be wrong but for me, its down to interpretation.

God made us. He knows how we work. He knows our minds. He gives us the ability to invent.

Imagine how many unwanted babies there would be without birth control? How many abortions? How many abandoned babies?

Which is better / worse? Stopping the egg and sperm meeting or aborting the baby?

Meowzltov · Feb 10, 2017

Goatee said:
Contraception is not abortion.

I'm not sure who you are addressing. My point in the discussion about Artificial Birth Control is that most of it does OTHER than prevent conception. IOW there are forms of ABC that are not contraceptive. They are abortifacients. And there are other forms of ABC that are contraceptive as the first line of attack, and abortifacient as their second line of attack.

Goatee · Feb 10, 2017

Open Heart said:
I'm not sure who you are addressing. My point in the discussion about Artificial Birth Control is that most of it does OTHER than prevent conception. IOW there are forms of ABC that are not contraceptive. They are abortifacients. And there are other forms of ABC that are contraceptive as the first line of attack, and abortifacient as their second line of attack.

Just a general post.

Aborting can only be done after the sperm and egg meet. Before that it is nothing but sperm and an egg!

Meowzltov · Feb 10, 2017

Goatee said:
Just a general post.

Aborting can only be done after the sperm and egg meet. Before that it is nothing but sperm and an egg!

I agree. However, abortion is used as birth control.

Goatee · Feb 10, 2017

Open Heart said:
I agree. However, abortion is used as birth control.

Yes it is but after the egg and sperm meet!

Strong in Him · Feb 10, 2017

Open Heart said:
I don't believe you are part of the Church unless you are
A. Baptized in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit

I have been.

Open Heart said:
Will Joe Schmoe who willfully refuses to become baptized go to hell? I leave that up to God to judge. But he is certainly not a part of the Church.

If he is a born again believer, confesses Christ as Saviour and Lord and has the Spirit, who assures us that we children of God, he is a member of the church.
He may have his own reasons for not being baptised; he may also have already been baptised as a child.

Philip_B · Feb 10, 2017

Open Heart said:
All baptized believers have a certain, albeit imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

I fairness I believe this post needs some unpacking. What is the nature and extent of the imperfect communion as you see it? Could you explain the differences if any you see between the Church catholic and the Catholic Church.

When I attended Mass in a Catholic Church some time back I was asked not to present myself at the altar to save the embarrassment of being refused. What is it that I am missing? I have been baptised in the name of the Holy Trinity, I assent fully to the Creed of the First Council of Constantinople (381), and I acknowledge Francis as the Patriarch of the West.

Goatee · Feb 10, 2017

One has to accepted in the CC in the full manner to receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church

Meowzltov · Feb 10, 2017

Goatee said:
Yes it is but after the egg and sperm meet!

The definition of contraception is the prevention of pregnancy. Pregnancy had always been defined as after conception UNTIL the invention of the UID and then it mysteriously got redefined to until after implantation. Convenient, eh? It's political. Abortion is birth control, but not contraception. Not really. Not if we are totally honest instead of politically correct.

Meowzltov · Feb 10, 2017

Strong in Him said:
If he is a born again believer, confesses Christ as Saviour and Lord and has the Spirit, who assures us that we children of God, he is a member of the church.
He may have his own reasons for not being baptised; he may also have already been baptised as a child.

If he was baptized as a child he is part of the Church. You only get baptized once. Having "his own reasons for not being baptized" sounds like an excuse for disobedience --"I know better than God" type of thing. Unless he has been somehow prevented from it, if he consciously refuses, there is no excuse. I can't say that he will go to hell, but I CAN say that he is not part of the Church.

Meowzltov · Feb 10, 2017

Philip_B said:
Could you explain the differences if any you see between the Church catholic and the Catholic Church.

None. There is only one Church. Jesus did not establishes many Churches.

Philip_B · Feb 10, 2017

Open Heart said:
None. There is only one Church. Jesus did not establishes many Churches.

Clearly I agree with the statement, and I stand and profess it on a regular basis.

Meowzltov · Feb 10, 2017

Philip_B said:
When I attended Mass in a Catholic Church some time back I was asked not to present myself at the altar to save the embarrassment of being refused. What is it that I am missing? I have been baptised in the name of the Holy Trinity, I assent fully to the Creed of the First Council of Constantinople (381), and I acknowledge Francis as the Patriarch of the West.

You are missing a belief in Transubstantiation.

And if you were truly and fully in union with us, you would understand that not only do we have something that only the Orthodox share, but it is only made possible by a valid priesthood, and you would convert either to Orthodoxy or Catholicism. An EO is welcome to receive communion in a Catholic Church. The CC has always made exception for such Christians when they are in an emergency position that they cannot receive Eucharist in their own church (i.e. caught in a snowstorm, etc.).

May I ask, if you accept the Pope, why are you not part of the Catholic Church?

Just an FYI from current events in the Vatican: It looks like if you believe in Real Presence AND are married to a Catholic (meaning you will attend church together) you may receive Eucharist in the Catholic church.

It sounds to me like you are extremely close to receiving communion in the Catholic Church. Are you Lutheran? Anglican?

Bible Highlighter · Feb 10, 2017

Founder said:
This is not to say whether taking that life is good or bad, or contrary to God's Will. It is just to state a simple fact that Any sort of premeditated interference with a child being born is taking a child's life.

This is true Biblically, Scientifically, Legally, and in the Common Sense Business environment. This is not to say anything else.

Of Course, "Whom God set free is free indeed" so people have the right to be wrong, but they must pay the price whether worldly, or other worldly.

The idea is to get people to face facts first, and then make whatever judgment they want about those facts. Everyone has the right to their own opinion, but no one has a right to their own facts.

The answer for Believers is to face the facts and repent appropriately their wrongdoing, and all is well with God. That is what I do. "FounderChurch"

Birth control is not taking a life. Life begins at conception and not before. Many of the tadpoles die even during the times when a couple wants to have children and yet they are unsuccessful. For there are many couples that cannot have children or couples whereby it is very hard for them to have them.

...

Meowzltov · Feb 10, 2017

Philip_B said:
Clearly I agree with the statement, and I stand and profess it on a regular basis.

Really? You agree that the the catholic Church is the Catholic Church, that there is no difference? Then why are you in the Anglican church?

Philip_B · Feb 10, 2017

Open Heart said:
Really? You agree that the the catholic Church is the Catholic Church, that there is no difference? Then why are you in the Anglican church?

I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. I believe a lot of things about it. I don't believe that the Catholic Church is the complete expression of the catholic church.

Open Heart said:
You are missing a belief in Transubstantiation.

Am I? are you sure? Do you understand what Anglican's believe about the Holy Eucharist? Or are you simply hung up on a word?

Open Heart said:
but it is only made possible by a valid priesthood

That is an interesting area to pursue, however I think it is an area where perhaps treading lightly might help.

Open Heart said:
May I ask, if you accept the Pope, why are you not part of the Catholic Church?

Yes, you may ask. I do accept the Pope as the leader of the Western Church, as the Patriarch of the West, as the Bishop of Rome, as first among equals. I can not accept a number of things, perhaps most notably the inclusion of the filioque clause in the ancient creed of the first Council of Constantinople.

Open Heart said:
Just an FYI from current events in the Vatican: It looks like if you believe in Real Presence AND are married to a Catholic (meaning you will attend church together) you may receive Eucharist in the Catholic church.

I am married, and my wife is catholic in what we might call the Anglican sense of it.

PS: I don't believe the beginning of the Anglican Church is in the 16th century.

BukiRob · Feb 10, 2017

Founder said:
This is not to say whether taking that life is good or bad, or contrary to God's Will. It is just to state a simple fact that Any sort of premeditated interference with a child being born is taking a child's life.

This is true Biblically, Scientifically, Legally, and in the Common Sense Business environment. This is not to say anything else.

Of Course, "Whom God set free is free indeed" so people have the right to be wrong, but they must pay the price whether worldly, or other worldly.

The idea is to get people to face facts first, and then make whatever judgment they want about those facts. Everyone has the right to their own opinion, but no one has a right to their own facts.

The answer for Believers is to face the facts and repent appropriately their wrongdoing, and all is well with God. That is what I do. "FounderChurch"

Semantically you would be incorrect. Something can only be taken away from that which is.

Birth-control prevents conception. There are many forms of birth control. Prophylactics, spermicide foam and the rhythm method.

The heart of the problem with your position is probably best exposed by looking at the rhythm method. There are only 5-6 days that a woman is fertile and the rhythm method is a means by which a woman learns (I wont go into detail how because its not really important to this thread) when she is fertile and the married couple simply abstains from intercourse.

To take away a life, life must exist. If life (conception) has not occurred then a life has not been taken for it has not yet been conceived.

BukiRob · Feb 10, 2017

Founder said:
All of the responses so far, are of the self-serving variety. I stated a very simply idea. That any sort of INTENTIONAL, PREMEDITATED preventing of pregnancy is taking life. I said nothing more as to whether it was good or bad, or God approved or not or anything else. So, don't read stuff into my statement that is not in there. Intentions rule here. I said, IF IF IF you do this Birth Control for the purpose of preventing a child, you have at that moment taken a life whether or not there would have been a child, no on knows. Common sense should tell you that if you interfere you are likely not to have a child, and if you don't interfere it is likely that you will have a child. So putting up the barrier however is the same as taking the life of the child because that was your motive when you did the barrier whatever it was. Is everyone not able to understand this simple idea???? I think you don't WANT to understand it.

Your position is not at all logical.

You assume that sex without birth control= 100% pregnancy. This is not true. If you have relations with your wife while she is fertile the chances are high... but they are not, 100%

If a woman does not conceive a life has not been taken. For your position to be logically consistent every time you have sex with your wife and she does NOT become pregnant you have taken a life... surely no one would accept that view

BukiRob · Feb 10, 2017

SkyWriting said:
The difference is scientific vs moral.
If sex is intended for procreation
then sex with the intent to stop
what God had intended would
be killing God's plan, even if you
are technically correct that some
forms of birth control stop the process
before conception. But not all do.

There is the flaw in your thinking. Sex is NOT just purely for procreation. A woman is only fertile 5/6 days out of a month Which would mean if you are correct (your not ) then a husband and wife should ONLY being having sex during those 5/6 days a month.

The mere fact that a woman is only fertile out of ~6/30 days pretty clearly shows that G-d INTENDED a husband and wife to express their love and physical desire for each other through sexual intercourse and procreation is a by product of that love

Goatee · Feb 10, 2017

Open Heart said:
The definition of contraception is the prevention of pregnancy. Pregnancy had always been defined as after conception UNTIL the invention of the UID and then it mysteriously got redefined to until after implantation. Convenient, eh? It's political. Abortion is birth control, but not contraception. Not really. Not if we are totally honest instead of politically correct.

Whatever happens after conception, to end life is abortion

BIRTH CONTROL OF ANY SORT TAKES LIFE

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