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Birds without feathers

Megachihuahua said:
So, over all the time that scutes have been around, they are still scutes, in all their scuting glory.

That's the point you apparently aren't getting. Scutes are not all identical, they can change, and feathers may have evolved from them.

Megachihuahua said:
I guess I'm just an idiot for not knowing that Evolution can think . :cry:

No one here thinks evolution can think. No one here has suggested evolution can think. Implying that anyone has is foolish.

Megachihuahua said:
And, even more to the point, there might be a "lizard-like" (yeah, right)animal with feathers, but their isn't a bird-like animal with scutes!

And I quote, since you obviously didn't read it, quoted by troodon, from this page: "Scutes are the thick scales on the top of a bird's foot."

Birds have scutes. Crocodiles have scutes.

Then again, birds probably aren't bird-like enough to satisfy you.
 
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Megachihuahua

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ifriit said:
That's the point you apparently aren't getting. Scutes are not all identical, they can change, and feathers may have evolved from them.



No one here thinks evolution can think. No one here has suggested evolution can think. Implying that anyone has is foolish.

Birds have scutes. Crocodiles have scutes.

Then again, birds probably aren't bird-like enough to satisfy you.
1) Some scutes turn into feathers, and others don't? You can't logically tell me you don't think evolution can think.
2)Maybe you didn't get it, there are no bird-like animals without feathers, with scutes, and do you get it now?
 
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Megachihuahua said:
1) Some scutes turn into feathers, and others don't? You can't logically tell me you don't think evolution can think.

Actually, if you had read troodon's link, you'd have noticed that it suggests that scutes derived from feathers, not the other way around. However, there is no logical necessity for evolution to "think." This is what natural selection explains. Perhaps you should read up more on what evolution is.

Megachihuahua said:
2)Maybe you didn't get it, there are no bird-like animals without feathers, with scutes, and do you get it now?

So what?
 
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bevets

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Here are some excerpts from the current issue of Popular Science. It is interesting how scientists talk when they forget about Darwinian orthodoxy and start talking about reality:

It seems ludicrous to think of an F-16 fighter jet as crude. But spend a few hours at the beach watching the lowly, scavenging seagull as it swoops over the sand, eyes a leftover french fry, pauses a moment, drops earthward, lands, grabs the morsel, and takes wing again. Not an aircraft in the world can match that performance.

"How does it change its direction? We don't know. In all my study I've found nothing that tells me how birds maneuver without their tails."
"We're talking about technology that's extremely high risk. There's no book on how to do it, and we've got no confidence that it'll work," she says. "But if it does, it's huge."

"I want a biologically inspired self-organizing central control system that will work like the synapses of the brain," Motter says, "with each sensor responding to different inputs and globally ordering the data, just like your brain responds to, say, a different color or sound." It's a mind-boggling undertaking"

"You could never do it with trial and error."

"It takes a long time to get research out," Lazos says. "I'd say 10 years before we even see this stuff on UAVs for the military, and 20 to 50 years before it hits commercial aviation. These are," he says, running his fingers along the curling, graceful edges of the little plastic wing, "concepts to investigate."
 
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notto

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bevets said:
Here are some excerpts from the current issue of Popular Science. It is interesting how scientists talk when they forget about Darwinian orthodoxy and start talking about reality:

It seems ludicrous to think of an F-16 fighter jet as crude. But spend a few hours at the beach watching the lowly, scavenging seagull as it swoops over the sand, eyes a leftover french fry, pauses a moment, drops earthward, lands, grabs the morsel, and takes wing again. Not an aircraft in the world can match that performance.

"How does it change its direction? We don't know. In all my study I've found nothing that tells me how birds maneuver without their tails."
"We're talking about technology that's extremely high risk. There's no book on how to do it, and we've got no confidence that it'll work," she says. "But if it does, it's huge."

"I want a biologically inspired self-organizing central control system that will work like the synapses of the brain," Motter says, "with each sensor responding to different inputs and globally ordering the data, just like your brain responds to, say, a different color or sound." It's a mind-boggling undertaking"

"You could never do it with trial and error."

"It takes a long time to get research out," Lazos says. "I'd say 10 years before we even see this stuff on UAVs for the military, and 20 to 50 years before it hits commercial aviation. These are," he says, running his fingers along the curling, graceful edges of the little plastic wing, "concepts to investigate."
Give them a million years and a million variations and it certainly could be done with trial and error. To suggest that this comment (in context) doesn't refer to the limitations of their program but instead suggests that the design of a brain and a bird could not have come about through natural selection is stretching a bit.

If it was through intelligence, why did do we see birds with wings that cannot fly? Why not give them arms with opposable thumbs that would do them some good? Why bother with the bat at all?
 
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troodon

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As off topic as your post may be, it needs addressing :)
bevets said:
Here are some excerpts from the current issue of Popular Science. It is interesting how scientists talk when they forget about Darwinian orthodoxy and start talking about reality:
That's funny; scientists are the ones who live in reality; not an unchanging interpretation of the Bible.

It seems ludicrous to think of an F-16 fighter jet as crude. But spend a few hours at the beach watching the lowly, scavenging seagull as it swoops over the sand, eyes a leftover french fry, pauses a moment, drops earthward, lands, grabs the morsel, and takes wing again. Not an aircraft in the world can match that performance.
Not a comparable scenario. Machines/robots are still in their infancy and incapable of even mimiking bipedal walking. Also, you must have seen shore birds miss their target (I have many times).

"How does it change its direction? We don't know. In all my study I've found nothing that tells me how birds maneuver without their tails."
What does this have to do with evolution? We know that birds manage to maneuver. Are you trying to suggest that some supernatural force enables them to change direction without a long tail? :p

"We're talking about technology that's extremely high risk. There's no book on how to do it, and we've got no confidence that it'll work," she says. "But if it does, it's huge."
I'm not sure what context this is in (I'll assume it has to do with evolving flight). The quote would be correct; evolving flight is high risk, there is no map on how to evolve, and the fossil record shows us that when a group of animals evolves flight they experience a tremendous explosion in diversity (insects, pterosaurs, birds, and bats all show it).

"I want a biologically inspired self-organizing central control system that will work like the synapses of the brain," Motter says, "with each sensor responding to different inputs and globally ordering the data, just like your brain responds to, say, a different color or sound." It's a mind-boggling undertaking"
Brains have been evolving for hundreds of millions of years; the end result is mind boggling but, as lucaspa is fond of saying, Darwinian natural selection is the best algorithm for design.

"You could never do it with trial and error."

Even you must realize this is false. Does a baby bird have the same precision as an adult? No. You know why? Because it has learned, over many trials, the best technique for whatever it is trying to do (nab a fish, perch on a branch, perform its mating call, etc.). I wonder what context this is in.

"It takes a long time to get research out," Lazos says. "I'd say 10 years before we even see this stuff on UAVs for the military, and 20 to 50 years before it hits commercial aviation. These are," he says, running his fingers along the curling, graceful edges of the little plastic wing, "concepts to investigate."
Am I to assume that this article is about using bird adaptations to flight in modern airplanes? Because if so that is pertinant information you could have given us :)
 
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bevets

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It seems ludicrous to think of an F-16 fighter jet as crude. But spend a few hours at the beach watching the lowly, scavenging seagull as it swoops over the sand, eyes a leftover french fry, pauses a moment, drops earthward, lands, grabs the morsel, and takes wing again. Not an aircraft in the world can match that performance.

Not a comparable scenario. Machines/robots are still in their infancy and incapable of even mimiking bipedal walking.

Walking, flying, whatever. We have 6000 years of technology as a base for intelligent design, and we can not begin to mimic the elegance of supposed dumb luck.

"How does it change its direction? We don't know. In all my study I've found nothing that tells me how birds maneuver without their tails."

What does this have to do with evolution? We know that birds manage to maneuver.
Evolutionists speak matter of factly about creatures they have never examined alive, yet scientists discover humility when discussing creatures they have studied a great deal.

Brains have been evolving for hundreds of millions of years; the end result is mind boggling but, as lucaspa is fond of saying, Darwinian natural selection is the best algorithm for design.

Natural selection is a fiction -- it is incapable of designing anything.

You could never do it with trial and error."

Does a baby bird have the same precision as an adult? No. You know why? Because it has learned, over many trials, the best technique for whatever it is trying to do (nab a fish, perch on a branch, perform its mating call, etc.).


No changing lanes: we are not discussing intelligent beings learning to perform tasks. We are discussing dumb luck coming up with elegant designs.
 
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bevets said:
Walking, flying, whatever. We have 6000 years of technology as a base for intelligent design, and we can not begin to mimic the elegance of supposed dumb luck.
Dumb luck? Evolution is certainly not dumb luck--natural selection is a surprisingly good designer. Heck, humans have adapted the principles of natural selection to create design algorithms capable of doing pretty amazing things.

bevets said:
Natural selection is a fiction -- it is incapable of designing anything.
Natural selection is certainly not a fiction, it's observed on a regular basis. That you think it incapable of designing anything suggests you know little about design.
 
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troodon

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bevets said:
Walking, flying, whatever. We have 6000 years of technology as a base for intelligent design
And for ~5850 of those years we didn't understand electricity.
and we can not begin to mimic the elegance of supposed dumb luck.
Evolution has had, in the case of birds, about 150 million years to perfect their flying skills.

Evolutionists speak matter of factly about creatures they have never examined alive, yet scientists discover humility when discussing creatures they have studied a great deal.
What is your point? Some "scientist" (I put quotes around it because you haven't provided any evidence that they are one) who doesn't know how birds maneuver is supposed to be some sort of groundshaking discovery? I assure you Ornithologists do know how they maneuver and Ornithologists are very involved in the study of how birds evolved (just ask Feduccia :D ).

Natural selection is a fiction -- it is incapable of designing anything.
Holy cow; that is hilarious. So Noah brought every single type of Galapagoes finch on the Ark? As well as every breed of dog (because the artificial selection we imposed on them mimics that of natural selection)? If it didn't evolve there, how did the Dodo get to Mauritius (seeing as it was unable to swim)? You YECs, sooooooo funny.

No changing lanes: we are not discussing intelligent beings learning to perform tasks. We are discussing dumb luck coming up with elegant designs.
The statement was "you can't do it by trial and error" and I showed how it is done. Whether it's a baby bird or a design mechanism doesn't matter; the statement was shown to be false. It's you who is "changing lanes".

So are you going to address my point about Caudipteryx or not?
 
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troodon

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ifriit said:
An aside: Au contraire, mon ami. Take a look at some videos of the Honda Asimo sometime.
Yeah I was aware of this guy. I should have said "incapable of mimicking [and actually spelled it right :D ] bipedal animals in their dexterity". My mistake.
 
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