Biogeography falsifies the worldwide flood

[JohnR7]

John, "world-wide flood" in this case means water that covered all the land on all the planet, not rising sea levels all over the world..

Genesis 7:19-20
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. [20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

The word for high "hills" & "mountains" is the same Hebrew word: "Har"

"a mountain or range of hills (sometimes used figurative) :- hill (country), mount (-ain), × promotion."

My theory is that what was covered were the "high hills" or the foot hills that were created by the glaciers. We know that the flooding was caused by the melting of the glaciers. We believe that in the area Noah was in there was a natural dam in the Bosporus pass area. When this dam broke the Tigris - Euphrates valley between the rivers flooded. This was at the time known as the land of Adamia or the land of Eden.

This then opened up the Bosporus pass between the east and the west, and it caused a mass migration of people into this area after the flood.

I am well aware that others have a different interpretation for this passage than I do. So you will have to discuss that with them.

Gap Theory doesn't work because most life on earth was not destroyed at the end of the Ice Age. The only life that was really lost were the large mammals, and humans did most of them in by overhunting. But there is no record of extinction in Africa or the Phillipines or the Amazon rainforests, for example.

The gap theory works just fine. Just a friendly reminder that your vain attempt to try and prove the gap theory of creation wrong is going to be destine to frustration and failure. You will be up against God. So now it the time for you to walk in the light and begin to understand the deep things of God. You can leave your childish things behind, to enter in and walk in the truth.

I do not have time to go into a study on remenant theology right now. God has a remenant that He repopulates the earth with. So as you say, we know not all of the land was flooded. But there are a lot of underwater citys. More are being found all the time. So there was a lot of destruction and ruin. As the Bible says: "the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep"

The question is: Is there darkness in your life over the deep things of God? Are you walking in the light and the full knowledge of the truth? It is time now for man to come out of the darkness and to walk in the light. This is the final chance that men will have to be redeemed and saved. Within 50 or 100 years there is going to be mass destruction upon this world again. Not so much by flooding this time although there will be flooding. The real threat that is comeing is from fire.

2 Peter 3:12
looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Peter repeats this twice, so you can be sure it is important.

Also, you can't get a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 from Gap Theory, because, as you acknowledge, the sun, moon, and stars were already in place before the Ice Age, yet they are created de novo in Genesis 1.

Try not to jump ahead to far, we will get to all of that. But we have to get there one step at a time.

Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Clearly what took place took place in the firmament or what we refer to now as our atmosphere. I will even give you a bonus. Before the fall, there was life on the moon and the planets. They also will be redeemed and restored.

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

The Blood of Jesus will redeem all of creation. Even the moon will be redeemed by the Divine Blood.

 

[JohnR7]

John,

Worldwide flooding is NOT the same as a worldwide flood we have been over this before I am sure. The biogeography question is not a problem for a local flood even if there was other widespread local flooding at the same time. As Lucas has pointed out YEC clearly calls for a worldwide flood that covers the entire world with water.

We have been over this many times, so I will be brief. The word used for the area that was flooded is "Adamia", the Bible does not say the whole world was flooded. Also the people who were destroyed were those who had the "breath of life in them", this clearly is a referance to the decendants of Adam and Eve. The "entire" world or the mountains were not covered, I believe only the foothills created by the ice age were covered by the water. Althought I have been told at one time water covered all the land or all the crust of the earth. It is believed that if all of the ice melted and then reformed itself during the small ice age in more recent history. But I will leave it up to Dr. Dino to defend that one. Along with his scientists from Birdseye Frozen Foods LOL, how can you help but not to like the guy, he is so funny.

YECs claim that representatives of every "kind" of animal were on the ark and that they all came off the ark at the same time in the Middle East.

They can claim whatever they want to claim. There is no way all the life on earth was on Noah's Ark. Only the Biodiversification of life from the Land of Eden or the Land of Adamia. This is a symbolic representation of all the life on the earth though. But in a literal sense a much smaller representive of life is sufficent to get the shaddow and type to work.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

This is a big, Big, BIG, point. Those who deny the power of God are without excuse. Creation clearly contains a natural record that gives us testimony for God. There is NO WAY that the natural record is going to contradict the written word of God in any way, shape or form.

Genesis 1:2-3
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

People need to come out of their darkness. They need to come out of their void and their desolation. They need to walk in the light. The deep things of God are no longer in darkness.

Ephes. 5:8
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

We have been over this many times, so I will be brief. The word used for the area that was flooded is "Adamia", the Bible does not say the whole world was flooded. Also the people who were destroyed were those who had the "breath of life in them", this clearly is a referance to the decendants of Adam and Eve. The "entire" world or the mountains were not covered, I believe only the foothills created by the ice age were covered by the water.

To John,
You can believe what you want to believe. Since you obviously don't believe the entire world was underwater during Noah's flood I don't know what you are arguing about. The flood of Noah as a worldwide event is central to YEC dogma. As I have said it is falsified by many things including biogeography. You seem to want to hijack every thread to discuss your particular OEC viewpoint. You have stated why you don't think the flood was worldwide. Fine. Science agrees with you on that at least. We can discuss your flood of Adamia in other threads. The topic of this thread is biogeography and the alleged worldwide flood.

To YECs
You YECs are constantly claiming that the data from science fit nicely with a YEC worldview when interpreted properly. I am still waiting for a YEC based interpretation of biogeography that is more than an hoc handwaving that only covers a tiny bit of the overall problem.

Here are some web pages I linked to before the board crash.

http://publish.uwo.ca/~handford/zoog1.html
http://publish.uwo.ca/~handford/zoog2.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/marsupials.html

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[troodon]

To go along with the Australian marsupials, how did large flightless birds get to their respective islands. How did the moa get to New Zealand and how did the dodo get to Mauritius?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Biogeography is yet another falsification of the worldwide flood that YECs can't answer so I'll bump it once again.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[JohnR7]

The flood of Noah as a worldwide event is central to YEC dogma.

The so called "problem" of the world wide flood is one of timing. It could be that at the end of the last ice age most of the ice melted and most of the world was flooded. Then when the little ice age came the north pole began to freeze up again and as the ice formed the water level began to go down.

We know that not ever area in the world flooded at exactly the same time. The world wide flood could have taken place over thousands of years. To be sure it took thousands of years for the land to build up it's ecology after the ice melted.

It has been shown that the area Noah was in, flooded later than the rest of the world, because of a natural land dam that held the water back up in the mountain pass that connects the east and the west.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

The so called "problem" of the world wide flood is one of timing. It could be that at the end of the last ice age most of the ice melted and most of the world was flooded. Then when the little ice age came the north pole began to freeze up again and as the ice formed the water level began to go down.

John,

For the umpteenth time worldwide flooding in coastal areas at the end of the ice age is not the same as a worldwide flood. The YEC flood is said to have been worldwide, ie the whole world was underwater, and to have been only a few thousand years ago as you well know. Melting of the ice from the last of the ice ages may have caused widespread flooding around the world but of course could not have put the whole world under water. In the current version of YEC there is only one ice age and it occurs after the worldwide flood. If you want to discuss the evidence for your version of the flood of Noah please do so on other threads. This point of this thread is that biogeography is one of the many falsifications of the flood of Noah as a recent worldwide event, that put the entire world under water for about a year.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Bump for any new YECs who want to take a crack at another insoluble problem. Please read the first posts and don't give us a prefalsified Hovindish answer about swimming Kanagroos.

The Fumious Bandersnatch

 

[JohnR7]

As Lucas has pointed out YEC clearly calls for a worldwide flood that covers the entire world with water.

So Biogeography does not actually falsifies the worldwide flood as you suggest, it only falsifies that the entire world was covered. That is to say any area in the world that is above say 500 or 600 feet in elevation. I have never actually heard of a flood that flooded the high ground. It is generally accepted that when you have wide spead flooding only low lying areas are effected.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

So Biogeography does not actually falsifies the worldwide flood as you suggest, it only falsifies that the entire world was covered. That is to say any area in the world that is above say 500 or 600 feet in elevation. I have never actually heard of a flood that flooded the high ground. It is generally accepted that when you have wide spead flooding only low lying areas are effected.

You are correct. Biogeography is one of the many insoluble problems for the worldwide flood that covered all that land on earth at once that simply do not apply to a local flood however large. Your own thread on biodiversity in the Philippines shows a similar problem for YEC that may be considered as subset of the biogeography I guess.

In any case no YEC has EVER given even a remotely plausible explanation of the world's biogeography that is consistent with all the animals on earth being descended from pair of each kind that came off a boat together in the Middle East a few thousand years ago because there is no remotely plausible explanation. The flood of Noah was not a worlwide flood unless God decided to trick us by magically transporting the animals to their current locations after it was over and of course created a lot of other false evidence against the flood in the world's geology and fossil record and so on and on.

I do recall one YEC saying that he thought God had probably "teletransported" the animals off the ark. I suppose God could do that but I don't find it a very satifactory explanation. Do you?

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[JohnR7]

I do recall one YEC saying that he thought God had probably "teletransported" the animals off the ark. I suppose God could do that but I don't find it a very satifactory explanation. Do you?

We have enough distractions already.

I think one thing we need to address is just where the animals that were on Noah' Ark, came from in the first place. The Bible said that God created them, when He created Adam and Eve. If that were not the case, then where did they come from? 12 to 14 thousand years ago, the tigris euphrates area would have been covered by ice. What life was there, did not seem to survive the ending of the last ice age.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

think one thing we need to address is just where the animals that were on Noah' Ark, came from in the first place. The Bible said that God created them, when He created Adam and Eve. If that were not the case, then where did they come from? 12 to 14 thousand years ago, the tigris euphrates area would have been covered by ice. What life was there, did not seem to survive the ending of the last ice age.

I really don't think that part of the world was under ice 14,000 years ago but if you want to discuss it please open another thread. The purpose of this thread is to discuss that fact that Young Earth Creationists have no logical answer to the falsification of a worldwide flood by biogeography.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

If there really had been a worlwide flood YECs should have no problem explaining biogeography. Since we seem to have some new YEC flood defenders around they should be able to give the first logical answer to this problem if the worldwide flood is not a myth. Of course they can't because it is a myth.

The Frumious

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

This thread scrolled right off the page without a reply again. It is pretty obvious that YECs have NO answer to this clear falsification of the flood myth.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[armed2010]

Intellectual thought process goes against God's will

 

[boab71]

is there anyone left that believes in the ark as literal fact?

 

[boab71]

its embarassing to see people proselytizing for their beliefs to such a point where they switch their brains off.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

its embarassing to see people proselytizing for their beliefs to such a point where they switch their brains off.

A massive switching off of the brain is required to believe in YEC in spite of all multiple falsifications of the young earth and global flood myth.

Former YEC Glenn Morton refers to it as Morton's demon.

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb02.html

YECS you keep saying that it's just interpretation. Let's see if you can come up with a worldwide flood based interpretation of the world's biogeography that makes any sense at all. How about it?

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

This scrolled right off the page again with no replies from the YECs. I am going out of town for a week. Maybe during that time some YEC can come up with a YEC "interpretation" for biogeography that actually makes sense. If so it will be a first.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Volos]

Originally posted by JohnR7
I think one thing we need to address is just where the animals that were on Noah' Ark, came from in the first place. The Bible said that God created them, when He created Adam and Eve. If that were not the case, then where did they come from? 12 to 14 thousand years ago, the tigris euphrates area would have been covered by ice. What life was there, did not seem to survive the ending of the last ice age.

The ice sheet of the last ice age came nowhere near the modern Middle East.

Here is a map of the maximum glacial extension of the last ice age.
http://www.scotese.com/lastice.htm