Bill Johnson

[Craig de CrossWise]

IIRC, he adapted much of that material for the comparable section in God's Empowering Presence. Very useful indeed. Not exactly in keeping with Pentecostal tradition at several points, but pretty solidly exegetical.

I've not read God's Empowering Presence, so I can't comment. But, IIRC, the section of chapters 12-14 depart from some Pentecostal/charismatic traditions. Specifically, Fee asserts that one person does not necessarily have a 'gift', as if it's a lifetime thing. As Simon just noted he spoke in a foreign tongue once. It may well be the one and only time he'll do so. Guessing, I'd say this was to further the Gospel message. That's how I see the gifts, as furthering the Gospel only.

The Upper Room discourse details the purpose and workings of the Holy Spirit, and He never draws attention to Himself, as He points to Jesus instead. I've quoted Fee re: 1 Cor 12:3 in an article, so I have it handy:

“…and no one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit”. Gordon Fee, in his commentary on 1st Corinthians, does not see this as a “means of ‘testing the spirits’…” because “…it would seem possible for anyone to say these words at will“.

The presence of the Spirit in power and gifts makes it easy for God’s people to think of the power and gifts as the real evidence of the Spirit’s presence. Not so for Paul. The ultimate criterion of the Spirit’s activity is the exaltation of Jesus as Lord. Whatever takes away from that, even if they be legitimate expressions of the Spirit, begins to move away from Christ to a more pagan fascination with spiritual activity as an end in itself (pp 581-582).

 

[Craig de CrossWise]

I welcome you too Craig.
It is hard to interpret tone.
Some are very good at communicating neutrality though,
I'd say you do a good job.

Thanks, I do try hard at it. That's not to say that I may not display some emotion, to include humor at some points.

 

[NorrinRadd]

...

Is that the only book you've read on The Spirit?

...

No. If you like detailed and exhaustive analysis of the Biblical text, God's Empowering Presence is great. It is also by Fee. It is a rather academic (and large) treatment of every Pauline passage that directly or indirectly involves the Holy Spirit. It preceded Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God, and in fact was the basis for it. Fee realized there was a need for a version directed at laypeople, and adapted and condensed the second part of the larger book to make the smaller one.

Craig Keener's book Gift and Giver -- The Holy Spirit for Today is very good. The Spirit in the Gospels and Acts is only "ok"; it gives thorough and informative treatment of the passages it addresses, but only does a sampling, rather than the comprehensive approach Fee takes; and it is drily academic.

Gerald Hawthorne's The Presence and the Power is very interesting and easy to read. However it has a slightly cheap "look," and is hard to find.

I recall appreciating James Shelton's Mighty in Word and Deed, but I have not re-read it recently. It deals with the role of the Spirit in Luke and Acts. IIRC, it is somewhat academic, but not an intimidating read.

I tried to read Gary Burge's The Anointed Community, but ended up skipping and skimming. It was not an inviting read, and the typeface is uncomfortably small. It deals with the Holy Spirit in John's Gospel, epistles, and Revelation.

I have Roger Stronstad's The Charismatic Theology of St. Luke and the sequel The Prophethood of All Believers, but have only glanced at them so far.

I have a few others, that I've barely glanced at.

 

[simonthezealot]

Tell us more.
What do you make of that?

Praise the Lord for it, it was when I was sleeping, my at that time girlfriend soon to be wife was a pre-Christian she said that I went on for about 2-3 minutes in an arabic type language and when I was finished in that, out of my mouth in english I gave praise and Glory to God almighty.

This for the benefit of my unbelieving wife..
I was not even aware I was doing it as I was asleep.

 

[sunlover1]

Praise the Lord for it, it was when I was sleeping, my at that time girlfriend soon to be wife was a pre-Christian she said that I went on for about 2-3 minutes in an arabic type language and when I was finished in that, out of my mouth in english I gave praise and Glory to God almighty.

This for the benefit of my unbelieving wife..
I was not even aware I was doing it as I was asleep.

Too funny!
that's the norm i think.
tongues first and then praise in English.
How strange that you'd do it in your sleep.
Well, maybe not I guess.

I have had some strong warfare during the night.
Woke up with battle scars once!
Amazing, isn't it? How 'real" the spiritual stuff is.

So how can you be a "partial" cessationist?
What does that even mean?

 

[simonthezealot]

Too funny!
that's the norm i think.
tongues first and then praise in English.
How strange that you'd do it in your sleep.
Well, maybe not I guess.

I have had some strong warfare during the night.
Woke up with battle scars once!
Amazing, isn't it? How 'real" the spiritual stuff is.

So how can you be a "partial" cessationist?
What does that even mean?

Not really so strange, it's because I wasn't doing it...

Partial because if the HS wants to use me like that again that's His to choose...
I think the Charismatic movement offends the HS in that their focus is on His person and the reality is He points us to The Christ...



Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

 

[sunlover1]

Not really so strange, it's because I wasn't doing it...

Partial because if the HS wants to use me like that again that's His to choose...

Well in Corinth, they did it while awake.
And Paul said that the spirit of the prophet was SUBJECT
to the prophet.
So, God may very well WANT you to, but He's not going
to force you to.
Those guys took turns, so it was if and when they themselves
decided to do it.

I think the Charismatic movement offends the HS in that their focus is on His person and the reality is He points us to The Christ...

Not sure what you're saying here. Obviously what men do has no effect
on truth of Scripture either way.

Jesus said,
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth,
whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him
or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you
and will be in you.

Maybe it's not that those who manifest gifts FOCUS on God (The Spirit)
too much. Maybe it's that He's being ignored in the church at large.
If He 'abides with and will be IN us" wouldn't you expect to 'see' and
'hear from' Him?

 

[Gunny]

I'm sure that's true on some cases, but, I myself interpret the Scriptures to teach continuationism.

Amen. and Amen.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Hebrews 13:8
NIV

 

[sunlover1]

Originally Posted by sunlover1

Which gifts have you experienced?
​

a one time utterance of a foreign tongue...

You said "foreign tongue" Did you mean "tongue"?
I know you're a SS and 1 Cor. 14:2 says :
2 3588 [e]
2 ho
2 ὁ
2 the [one]
2 Art-NMS1063 [e]
gar
γὰρ
indeed
Conj2980 [e]
lalōn
λαλῶν
speaking
V-PPA-NMS1100 [e]
glōssē
γλώσσῃ ,
with a tongue
N-DFS3756 [e]
ouk
οὐκ
not
Adv444 [e]
anthrōpois
ἀνθρώποις
to men
N-DMP2980 [e]
lalei
λαλεῖ ,
speaks
V-PIA-3S235 [e]
alla
ἀλλὰ
but
Conj2316 [e]
Theō
Θεῷ ;
to God
N-DMS


Since it says nothing about 'foreign' and since it says that He speaks not
to men but to God... I wondered why you said "foreign".

Also, have you experienced any of the other gifts mentioned?
I know it doesn't say gifts either does it? LOL
Have you experienced any of the other "spiritual"?
(I mean through you or through others)

 

[Craig de CrossWise]

You said "foreign tongue" Did you mean "tongue"?
I know you're a SS and 1 Cor. 14:2 says :
2 3588 [e]
2 ho
2 ὁ
2 the [one]
2 Art-NMS1063 [e]
gar
γὰρ
indeed
Conj2980 [e]
lalōn
λαλῶν
speaking
V-PPA-NMS1100 [e]
glōssē
γλώσσῃ ,
with a tongue
N-DFS3756 [e]
ouk
οὐκ
not
Adv444 [e]
anthrōpois
ἀνθρώποις
to men
N-DMP2980 [e]
lalei
λαλεῖ ,
speaks
V-PIA-3S235 [e]
alla
ἀλλὰ
but
Conj2316 [e]
Theō
Θεῷ ;
to God
N-DMS


Since it says nothing about 'foreign' and since it says that He speaks not
to men but to God... I wondered why you said "foreign".

Also, have you experienced any of the other gifts mentioned?
I know it doesn't say gifts either does it? LOL
Have you experienced any of the other "spiritual"?
(I mean through you or through others)

Acts 2:5-12, NET Bible translation:

5 Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven residing in Jerusalem. 6 When this sound occurred, a crowd gathered and was in confusion, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Completely baffled, they said, “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that each one of us hears them in our own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes, Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and the province of Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own languages about the great deeds God has done!” 12 All were astounded and greatly confused, saying to one another, “What does this mean?”

 

[sunlover1]

Acts 2:5-12, NET Bible translation:

5 Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven residing in Jerusalem. 6 When this sound occurred, a crowd gathered and was in confusion, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Completely baffled, they said, “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that each one of us hears them in our own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes, Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and the province of Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own languages about the great deeds God has done!” 12 All were astounded and greatly confused, saying to one another, “What does this mean?”

Thanks Craig.
But I was looking at 1 Cor. 14:2, which clearly
states that he who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men,
but unto God.
So I'm not sure what you do with that, but to me it says that there were
two different workings of the same gift.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

 

[Craig de CrossWise]

Thanks Craig.
But I was looking at 1 Cor. 14:2, which clearly
states that he who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men,
but unto God.
So I'm not sure what you do with that, but to me it says that there were
two different workings of the same gift.

I agree with you. Since I'm not exactly sure of the situation with Simon and his, at the time, soon-to-be wife, I didn't know if the language He spoke was known or unknown to her; so, I wanted to illustrate that Scripture indicates there are both kinds of tongues. This, second kind, from Acts 2, is spoken of in 1 Cor 12:10 "to another speaking in different kinds of tongues."

So, I'll have to ask Simon: Was the tongue you spoke understandable by her, or did she just recognize it as different, and potentially Arabic?

 

[simonthezealot]

I agree with you. Since I'm not exactly sure of the situation with Simon and his, at the time, soon-to-be wife, I didn't know if the language He spoke was known or unknown to her; so, I wanted to illustrate that Scripture indicates there are both kinds of tongues. This, second kind, from Acts 2, is spoken of in 1 Cor 12:10 "to another speaking in different kinds of tongues."

So, I'll have to ask Simon: Was the tongue you spoke understandable by her, or did she just recognize it as different, and potentially Arabic?

Yes she recognized it as different, and potentially Arabic, and edited to add that I don't agree with the (excuse the term) "gibberish" tongues understanding of Corinthians, forwarded by charismatics.
But I don't want to sidetrack this too far with my experience...

 

[Craig de CrossWise]

Yes she recognized it as different, and potentially Arabic, and edited to add that I don't agree with the (excuse the term) "gibberish" tongues understanding of Corinthians, forwarded by charismatics.
But I don't want to sidetrack this too far with my experience...

I agree 100% re: the 'gibberish', as that is exactly what it is. While I agree that Scripture does indicate that some speak in a 'heavenly language', the "tongues" I've heard are all repetitive, containing up to a whopping 5-6 or so syllables, all repeated - like the 'joke' I heard from some charismatics 'she-came-in-on-a-Honda', or something to that effect. I'm convinced THAT is not how God speaks. But, I do know that tongues-speaking of this sort are known in cults and other religions.

I had a former friend (she actually demanded, via email, I no longer contact her, cutting off all communication on her end, because I began to question some of the teachings - and I was not rude, but sincerely asked her to check this stuff out, test it) who straight-faced told me that she was praying for tongues at church one day when she started speaking "ba-ba-ba-ba-ba..." One of her friends, who was coaching her at the time, said, "That's it! You got it!"

God will not be mocked, and that's exactly what that is.

...they refused to love the truth and so be saved 11 For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie. [2 Thess 2:10-11, NIV]

 

[simonthezealot]

We often meet with a fanciful religion in which people trust to impulses, to dreams, to noises, and mystic things which they imagine they have seen. Fiddle-faddle all of it, and yet they are quite wrapt up in it.

I pray that you may cast out this chaffy stuff, there is no food for the spirit in it. The life of my soul lies not in what I think, or what I fancy, or what I imagine, or what I enjoy of fine feeling, but only in that which faith apprehends to be the Word of God.
~CH Spurgeoun

 

[contango]

I agree 100% re: the 'gibberish', as that is exactly what it is. While I agree that Scripture does indicate that some speak in a 'heavenly language', the "tongues" I've heard are all repetitive, containing up to a whopping 5-6 or so syllables, all repeated - like the 'joke' I heard from some charismatics 'she-came-in-on-a-Honda', or something to that effect. I'm convinced THAT is not how God speaks. But, I do know that tongues-speaking of this sort are known in cults and other religions.

I don't doubt that speaking in tongues is for today but at the same time agree that the "shinda, kushindai" kind of utterances are probably a kind of learned behaviour rather than anything spiritual. Churches that regard speaking in tongues as the only valid sign of the Holy Spirit (or, in more extreme cases, the only valid sign of salvation) do nothing to help this because anyone can make up a string of gibberish.

Saying "She came on a Honda, I came in a car" quickly through a long cardboard tube sounds particularly good in that regard.

Given the title of the thread, I'd just like to note that I'm not aware of Bill Johnson teaching anything inappropriate regarding tongues - I don't know his stance on the topic.

I had a former friend (she actually demanded, via email, I no longer contact her, cutting off all communication on her end, because I began to question some of the teachings - and I was not rude, but sincerely asked her to check this stuff out, test it) who straight-faced told me that she was praying for tongues at church one day when she started speaking "ba-ba-ba-ba-ba..." One of her friends, who was coaching her at the time, said, "That's it! You got it!"

It's inevitable that once we've got to a point of thinking we have something special going on, we'll resist people who tell us we don't. I think a large part of it is basic human nature - a desire to think we're doing something good, we're something special and so on. I remember when I got involved with an uber-charismatic church I was practically ticking off the boxes where it came to spiritual gifts, but my life wasn't so impressive when measured against spiritual fruits. If anyone tried to point it out to me I figured that if they didn't have spiritual gifts they just weren't as spiritual, so didn't know what they were talking about.

... which is part of the reason why now, being older and (hopefully) wiser, I tend to be wary of anything or anyone that looks very spiritual but doesn't want to be tested. Any teaching that boils down to "don't analyse, just receive" immediately gets thrown out, unless/until the Scriptural calling to "test all things" and "test the spirits" can be shown to be consistent with "don't think, just drink".

 

[sunlover1]

I agree 100% re: the 'gibberish', as that is exactly what it is. While I agree that Scripture does indicate that some speak in a 'heavenly language', the "tongues" I've heard are all repetitive, containing up to a whopping 5-6 or so syllables, all repeated - like the 'joke' I heard from some charismatics 'she-came-in-on-a-Honda', or something to that effect. I'm convinced THAT is not how God speaks.

And yet, that's your opinion. We all have opinions, I can't agree with yours as my
own is based on experience and evidence.

But, I do know that tongues-speaking of this sort are known in cults and other religions.

Proving what?
And, what "sort" do you speak?

I had a former friend (she actually demanded, via email, I no longer contact her, cutting off all communication on her end, because I began to question some of the teachings - and I was not rude, but sincerely asked her to check this stuff out, test it) who straight-faced told me that she was praying for tongues at church one day when she started speaking "ba-ba-ba-ba-ba..." One of her friends, who was coaching her at the time, said, "That's it! You got it!" God will not be mocked, and that's exactly what that is.

Actually, exactly" what it is, is here-say and conjecture.
I'm sure we can agree.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all. Or at least more than the "tongue-depressors" among us.

 

[sunlover1]

I don't doubt that speaking in tongues is for today but at the same time agree that the "shinda, kushindai" kind of utterances are probably a kind of learned behaviour rather than anything spiritual...

Should we assume?

It's inevitable that once we've got to a point of thinking we have something special going on, we'll resist people who tell us we don't.

If God gives you a gift and some skeptic comes along telling you
He didn't, would you resist God or the skeptic?

I think a large part of it is basic human nature - a desire to think we're doing something good, we're something special and so on.

Or a large part of it might be that God's giving them gifts,
and they don't at all think that they're "something special"

I remember when I got involved with an uber-charismatic church I was practically ticking off the boxes where it came to spiritual gifts, but my life wasn't so impressive when measured against spiritual fruits. If anyone tried to point it out to me I figured that if they didn't have spiritual gifts they just weren't as spiritual, so didn't know what they were talking about.

Should we assume others are arrogant, just because you were?

... which is part of the reason why now, being older and (hopefully) wiser, I tend to be wary of anything or anyone that looks very spiritual but doesn't want to be tested. Any teaching that boils down to "don't analyse, just receive" immediately gets thrown out, unless/until the Scriptural calling to "test all things" and "test the spirits" can be shown to be consistent with "don't think, just drink"

How do you test tongues?

 

[simonthezealot]

I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all. Or at least more than the "tongue-depressors" among us.

This sounds vaguely familiar...

The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men.....