Bill Johnson

[simonthezealot]

Note the date, 1907, of the book I referenced. E.W. Kenyon, the REAL father of the WoF movement was alive and already influential by around this time. He grew up, and was influenced by New Thought and Christian Science, and I argue that he was influenced, at least indirectly by Theosophy, as well, the latter being especially influential on New Age / New Spirituality teachings of today. These three were all roughly contemporaneous, being influential in the late 1800s to the turn of the century (and later). I'd say Kenyon's Christology was informed by at least one of those, but most likely Theosophy, as it most closely resembles it.

Interesting that Kenyon's first newsletter was titled Reality according to D.R. McConnell's book A Different Gospel (1988 (4th pr. 1991), Hendrickson, Peabody, MA):

It should be pointed out that ‘Reality’ as Kenyon uses it is a term used in New Thought and Christian Science to refer to the spiritual realm and truths that were hidden by the sensations of the physical realm, which were not reality at all, but was considered ‘error,’ the opposite of metaphysical reality. Reality was also the name of Kenyon’s first newsletter (p 55, n 53)

This is a concept known as maya in Buddhism, meaning "illusion." Bill Johnson also uses this term "reality" similarly, both in books and in his somewhat recent sermon/podcast "Thinking from the Throne". Here's one from When Heaven Invades Earth:

…That which is unseen can be realized only through repentance. It was as though He said, ‘If you don’t change the way you perceive things, you’ll live your whole life thinking what you see in the natural is the superior reality… (p 38, first edition).

And here's one from the Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind (© 2005 Bill Johnson, Destiny Image Publishers, Shippensburg, PA; p 44) :

...Repent, then, means to go back to God’s perspective on reality. And in that perspective there is a renewal, a reformation that affects our emotions, and every part of our lives…

This is only two of many quotes of this sort. I've also pointed out how Johnson uses "repentance" in a way that looks quite a lot like Unity, Christian Science, Theosophy, etc. - that is, as meditative/contemplative prayer (TM) rather than asking the Lord to forgive us our sins:

Learning Etymology with Bill Johnson: A New Age ‘Repentance’? | CrossWise

So really I shouldn't be surprised when Johnson's followers are taking an esoteric approach toward me as though they've been enlightened and have a "joy" I could never have by studying His word and walking in the light as He is in the light..
Interesting information Craig.

 

[NorrinRadd]

sunlover1,...
As a side note: I have to say that your tone is decidedly un-Christian. A hallmark of being led of the Spirit is gentleness, self-control, etc. (Gal 5:22-26).

AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!

Wow, I almost wet 'em!

Accusing Sunlover of lacking gentleness and having a poor tone -- Priceless.

Thanks for the entertainment.

Edit: At this point, the thread definitely needs a visit from Luther.

 

[Craig de CrossWise]

So really I shouldn't be surprised when Johnson's followers are taking an esoteric approach toward me as though they've been enlightened and have a "joy" I could never have by studying His word and walking in the light as He is in the light..
Interesting information Craig.

Yes. I've encountered this on my blog, and particularly with another individual in person (she was not a BJ follower specifically, but was infatuated with the Elijah List, etc.). I've encountered the same with overt New Agers / New Spirituality adherents.

 

[HisSparkPlug]

Just got a little caught up on this thread.

First, I, like NorrinRadd find it amusing that Craig stated Sunlover1's "tone" is "decidedly unChristian". I see nothing unChristlike about her "tone" and this sort of remark is against forum rules when you make personal comments like that. Just a warning for you.

Second, one of the reasons I don't delve too far into these sorts of debates over Charismatic vs NonCharismatic is, 1. because those of us who know the truth about the personality of God and have experienced Him on a personal level like this are not going to abandon what we know about the Lord's workings.. and 2. those who are stuck in the traditions & doctrines of men are also not going to abandon their 'knowledge' until God Himself shows up on a more personal level in the lives of these people to prove otherwise.

Now you may say "this isn't about charismatic vs non charismatic". To this I disagree. The same people who put down & pick the words of Bill Johnson & other charismatic leaders to pieces and put words in their mouths, assuming to know their hearts, as per Isaiah 29:20-21, are the same people who put down most charismatic Christianity calling it non biblical.

For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

My prayer is that the Lord remove the veils and blinders over the eyes & ears of these ones.

God bless

 

[simonthezealot]

How very esoteric of you...smh
I've experienced God on a personal level many times in my life.
Maybe you could show us if you understand properly what the traditions and doctrines of men it is you speak of, and accuse others of being aligned with?

 

[sunlover1]

YES, experience is extremely important.
As a SS, I check doctrine against Scripture and obviously not everything is mentioned in Scripture.
Nor is Scripture our end goal. Our goal is God Himself and intimacy with Him.
That we be "one" with Him AND with each other?
Scripture helps us to know His voice that we wont' be tricked by a stranger's.
When we meet with Him, worship Him, enter into His presence as He inhabits our praise,
we do get to experience His love in a very tangible way.
But just because we experience God and watch Him move mountains, doesn't mean
that our theology is perfect either. So we all need to continue to be open, teachable.
But meanwhile, as we're learning and being perfected, we should let our light shine
and continue to BE as He IS, in the world.
AMEN.
Hope you all had a blessed day.
*hugs
Mine was kind of bumpy but God is good!

 

[contango]

Just got a little caught up on this thread.

First, I, like NorrinRadd find it amusing that Craig stated Sunlover1's "tone" is "decidedly unChristian". I see nothing unChristlike about her "tone" and this sort of remark is against forum rules when you make personal comments like that. Just a warning for you.

Second, one of the reasons I don't delve too far into these sorts of debates over Charismatic vs NonCharismatic is, 1. because those of us who know the truth about the personality of God and have experienced Him on a personal level like this are not going to abandon what we know about the Lord's workings.. and 2. those who are stuck in the traditions & doctrines of men are also not going to abandon their 'knowledge' until God Himself shows up on a more personal level in the lives of these people to prove otherwise.

Now you may say "this isn't about charismatic vs non charismatic". To this I disagree. The same people who put down & pick the words of Bill Johnson & other charismatic leaders to pieces and put words in their mouths, assuming to know their hearts, as per Isaiah 29:20-21, are the same people who put down most charismatic Christianity calling it non biblical.

For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

My prayer is that the Lord remove the veils and blinders over the eyes & ears of these ones.

God bless

It's not a simple matter of charismatic or not, some who oppose the ultra charismatic folks have seen God move in powerful ways but reject parts of the movement.

We are called to test, not blindly reject but also not blindly accept.

 

[sunlover1]

It's not a simple matter of charismatic or not, some who oppose the ultra charismatic folks have seen God move in powerful ways but reject parts of the movement.

We are called to test, not blindly reject but also not blindly accept.

We are called to test the SPIRITS.
We're not called to condemn everything taught by a certain group
that we "feel' is goofy.
I might feel that the Reformed bunch is goofy, I certainly live in the midst
of Reformed usa, and they sure can be ridiculous where I live, condemning
others for mowing on Sunday while they sit in their hidden basement bars
on Sat night.
But regardless, we should have the same exact standard for all teaching
and I'm not seeing it.
I'll give BJ just as much slack as I will Mac et al.

 

[contango]

We are called to test the SPIRITS.
We're not called to condemn everything taught by a certain group
that we "feel' is goofy.
I might feel that the Reformed bunch is goofy, I certainly live in the midst
of Reformed usa, and they sure can be ridiculous where I live, condemning
others for mowing on Sunday while they sit in their hidden basement bars
on Sat night.
But regardless, we should have the same exact standard for all teaching
and I'm not seeing it.
I'll give BJ just as much slack as I will Mac et al.

We're called to "test all things".

I would only reject everything from a particular teacher if they appeared to have things so fundamentally wrong I couldn't trust them. Just like I wouldn't take lessons in calculus from someone who couldn't add up, so I wouldn't rush to accept theology from someone who appears confused over who Jesus is and was.

 

[sunlover1]

We're called to "test all things".

Well all things are spiritual anyhow, aren't they?
I mean I've seen people misapply Scripture to condemn men
and we don't have to wonder what's going on there. It's obvious,
we wrestle, we fight, we war. And it's a spiritual battle.
This BJ for example. I'm watching some of his videos (granted, not
much as I've been busy, but some) and so far I don't see him saying
anything overtly heretic. The only things I'm seeing that are heretic
about him are taken (IMO) out of the context of what else he's said.
He plainly said that Jesus is "eternally" (synonyms:everlasting, never-
ending, endless, perpetual, undying, immortal, abiding, permanent,
enduring, infinite, boundless, timeless...) God, so when he adds
that GOD laid aside His divinity, why would we jump on Him and
yell "heretic!!! he doesn't believe in the trinity!"?

 

[simonthezealot]

Well all things are spiritual anyhow, aren't they?

Huh?

 

[sunlover1]

Huh?

?
No?

To me all things are spiritual.
Maybe you can teach me to live better.

 

[simonthezealot]

?
No?

To me all things are spiritual.
Maybe you can teach me to live better.

Well I was just confused when you said "All things"
maybe all didn't really mean all.
inanimate objects aren't spiritual are they?

 

[HisSparkPlug]

We are called to test the SPIRITS.
We're not called to condemn everything taught by a certain group
that we "feel' is goofy.

This is balanced. May it continue with you.
Would love to see more balanced believers out there.

 

[HisSparkPlug]

Well all things are spiritual anyhow, aren't they?
I mean I've seen people misapply Scripture to condemn men
and we don't have to wonder what's going on there. It's obvious,
we wrestle, we fight, we war. And it's a spiritual battle.
This BJ for example. I'm watching some of his videos (granted, not
much as I've been busy, but some) and so far I don't see him saying
anything overtly heretic. The only things I'm seeing that are heretic
about him are taken (IMO) out of the context of what else he's said.
He plainly said that Jesus is "eternally" (synonyms:everlasting, never-
ending, endless, perpetual, undying, immortal, abiding, permanent,
enduring, infinite, boundless, timeless...) God, so when he adds
that GOD laid aside His divinity, why would we jump on Him and
yell "heretic!!! he doesn't believe in the trinity!"?

VERY well put and my sentiments exactly.
I see this being done to more than just Bill Johnson.
My question is "why?" do certain people do this to these teachers? -- I believe I know why. It is for the very same reasons they jumped all over Jesus and proclaimed He was a heretic and blasphemer. Both Jesus and these men of God work 'outside the box'.
What box? The box which says "this is how scripture is interpreted and it's the only way it can be interpreted".
I'm all for scripture and testing all things against it, but people need to realize there are many scriptures more than the same ones they use to fight a multitude of battles with, and even those ones they rely on, are often used incorrectly.

I rest my case and move onto other worthy threads and discussions.
Blessings to all

 

[sunlover1]

Well I was just confused when you said "All things"
maybe all didn't really mean all.
inanimate objects aren't spiritual are they?

I meant all things we have to test.
But we should talk about that too.
How to 'test' all things and how to
"test the spirits" etc.

This is balanced. May it continue with you.
Would love to see more balanced believers out there.

Thank you but a WHOLE lotta folks would disagree with you lol.
Was discussing this earlier with one of my loved ones. I said that
if any of our relatives knew we believed in the gifts of the spirit,
that would be one of those things that you just HAFTA tell aunt
so-and-so, and then Aunt So-and-so just HAS to tell cousin Suzy
and then cousin Suzy has to... etc.
It's not a small thing to say that you heal the sick etc.
Certainly not considered 'balanced' are we?
Oh well
:O

 

[HisSparkPlug]

Thank you but a WHOLE lotta folks would disagree with you lol.
Was discussing this earlier with one of my loved ones. I said that
if any of our relatives knew we believed in the gifts of the spirit,
that would be one of those things that you just HAFTA tell aunt
so-and-so, and then Aunt So-and-so just HAS to tell cousin Suzy
and then cousin Suzy has to... etc.
It's not a small thing to say that you heal the sick etc.
Certainly not considered 'balanced' are we?
Oh well
:O

Well yes - And you've brought up a good subject, one which I myself am curious about. Here's that question... lol.. are you ready?
Q: Is it right to hide the fact that we believe in the gifts in order to avoid persecution?
Yikes! That's a big one.
I don't hide it, I refuse to, and as you and a few others know, I've been persecuted to tears - by Christians nonetheless.
HELP!

 

[sunlover1]

Well yes - And you've brought up a good subject, one which I myself am curious about. Here's that question... lol.. are you ready?
Q: Is it right to hide the fact that we believe in the gifts in order to avoid persecution?
Yikes! That's a big one.
I don't hide it, I refuse to, and as you and a few others know, I've been persecuted to tears - by Christians nonetheless.
HELP!

LOL.
If no one hates you, then you're doing something wrong,
but there's no need to antagonize folks either.

I don't "hide" my beliefs but I don't act like an idiot
either and draw negative attention to myself.
I keep my mouth shut, I don't condemn others for their
lifestyle and in fact I try to just "be" who He created me
to "be". Just listen and follow His lead is the best rule.
But we all know that
There's no reason for me to bring up tongues debates at
family gatherings lol. But when someone's sick they act
like I have some special line to heaven. And sometimes I
just pray FOR them, other times I pray WITH them and
sometimes I teach them how to pray.
And I'm sure it's that way with all of us
We just don't "look like" the world, no matter what.
Foreigners and aliens lol.
Deep cries out to deep, that's the way it has to be .
LOVE it!

 

[HisSparkPlug]

LOL.
If no one hates you, then you're doing something wrong,
but there's no need to antagonize folks either.

I don't "hide" my beliefs but I don't act like an idiot
either and draw negative attention to myself.
I keep my mouth shut, I don't condemn others for their
lifestyle and in fact I try to just "be" who He created me
to "be". Just listen and follow His lead is the best rule.
But we all know that
There's no reason for me to bring up tongues debates at
family gatherings lol. But when someone's sick they act
like I have some special line to heaven. And sometimes I
just pray FOR them, other times I pray WITH them and
sometimes I teach them how to pray.
And I'm sure it's that way with all of us
We just don't "look like" the world, no matter what.
Foreigners and aliens lol.
Deep cries out to deep, that's the way it has to be .
LOVE it!

heheh.. appreciate your humour esp re: the tongues debate at the dinner table.. that gave me a good chuckle.
The way I see it however, is that if they are believers, they need to know there's more. The Lord saw what my family would do to me when I told them about the dreams He gave me and how He was teaching me to interpret them. At that time it had not dawned on me for a moment that they, (those in my fam who are Christian people) would find dreams & dream interpreting to be non scriptural.. huh? Nor did I expect an entire family to declare that what happened to me as a child to have never happened. It took the Lord telling me Himself that I was actually being persecuted for me to clue in to the fact that indeed, this is persecution... Later on as things snowballed I had nooo problems believing it. ha!

Thing is, who's going to educate the body if we don't? Not their church if they go to a church which doesn't believe in the gifts.

I'd start a thread on this topic but I fear all the charismatic haters would show up and trample us underfoot... Now that fear is wisdom, not the fear of man (or is it? )

 

[NorrinRadd]

Well all things are spiritual anyhow, aren't they?
I mean I've seen people misapply Scripture to condemn men
and we don't have to wonder what's going on there. It's obvious,
we wrestle, we fight, we war. And it's a spiritual battle.
This BJ for example. I'm watching some of his videos (granted, not
much as I've been busy, but some) and so far I don't see him saying
anything overtly heretic. The only things I'm seeing that are heretic
about him are taken (IMO) out of the context of what else he's said.
He plainly said that Jesus is "eternally" (synonyms:everlasting, never-
ending, endless, perpetual, undying, immortal, abiding, permanent,
enduring, infinite, boundless, timeless...) God, so when he adds
that GOD laid aside His divinity, why would we jump on Him and
yell "heretic!!! he doesn't believe in the trinity!"?

This sort of thing is why I posted the quotes I did. I was very impressed with Rob Bowman's book, The Word-Faith Controversy. I am no fan of WoF. I think some of its doctrines and practices are unscriptural and potentially harmful to physical and emotional health. I can document some of its leaders from "my time" (the 1980s) making false prophecies and having false visions. But none of that makes any of those persons heretics, and certainly does not make the movement as a whole heretical.

Bowman characterized it as "a mess," and I think that's still valid. His reason for preferring that description was that their doctrines are inconsistent and disorganized. The official Statements of Faith of their ministries are usually fine. In the heat of preaching, they can easily say wacky or heretical things. Their books are often adapted from transcripts of spoken sermons, so the same stuff can end up in print. At other times, you could easily hear or read the same preacher address the same topic in a completely sane and orthodox way.

Walter Martin was a well-known apologist who was the first head of the Christian Research Institute. (The current head is the vastly inferior Hank Hanegraaff.) Bowman worked at CRI for a time. Virtually anyone would recognize Martin as an orthodox believer, with perhaps a few nonstandard beliefs, certainly not a heretic. Bowman used Martin as an example to demonstrate that if someone says, "Jesus worked His miracles and performed His earthly ministry as a man dependent on the Father (and/or the Spirit)," you cannot properly extrapolate that to mean that the person who said that believes Jesus stopped being God, and that therefore the person is a heretic. If the person also explicitly says that Jesus remains eternally God, the *most* one can honestly claim is that the person is inconsistent or unclear.