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Bikinis: Right or Thong

jsfox

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Adiya said:
I lived in europe for 2 years, and I've been to the beaches there. Some are topless. Quite a few are not. I didn't have a problem with either, but that's their "norm", not our norm here. So it's not really applicable. I do see your point though.
I'm guessing you lived in the UK, not on the continent? I've never seen a beach on the continent that wasn't topless (though usually 20-30% of women are wearing tops). Nudity is generally acceptable on most except about half in Italy are known as mob rule (nudity is acceptable unless someone complains and then you are expected to put a suit on). About half the beaches in Spain are clothing optional and half are posted as requiring suits.
 
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AngylBelle

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I live in South Florida where anything goes...:thumbsup:

That being said, I wear "skimpy" bikini's out in public. Never a thong bottom though, just cuz I am not so proud of the junk in my trunk! (Not fat, just a big booty! ^_^ ) I am not offended by women who do wear them though (although some should be more considerate in considering what flatters their body types and what doesn't). As for nudie beaches, I could care less...if someone is offended by it, they have the option of not going. And other public areas, well, it depends on the place. Some restaurants down here you can wear your bathing suit and nothing else, so it is hard to stereotype "appropriate" attire for general areas.
 
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LOVEthroughINTELLECT

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For a forum headed Philosophy & Morality I don't see much philosophical work being done here. What I see is mostly people posting their personal tastes, opinions, beliefs, values, etc. and insinuating that anybody who doesn't share those tastes, opinions, beliefs or values is wrong, perverted, amoral, irrational, a religious extremist, hypocritical, naive, out of touch with reality, needs to get a life, etc., etc. I see very little objective inquiry, refining of thinking, synthesizing, etc.

If personal preference and personal opinion are what this thread is about, then here is mine:

1.) Bikinis, public nudity, etc. are foolish. Has anybody heard of skin cancer? Even in the winter in cold climates where people don't go to beaches and dress "comfortably" there is great risk of harmful UV exposure, it is my understanding. Hmm...do skiers use sunscreen/sunblock while on the slopes of Colorado and Vermont? (Do the sunscreens/sunblocks on the market even work in cold temperatures?) Yet, not only do people fail to minimize their exposure to sunlight, they go to tanning beds when they aren't at the beach, working in the garden, etc.

I avoid the sun as much as possible. Several years ago when I lost 30 lbs. by walking 12 hours a week (and by giving up the 2 liters a day of Mountain Dew also :D [I gave it up entirely--for six months, that is; the caffeine withdrawal was the strangest experience), I consciously did the walking before sunrise and around sunset. Most of the walking, therefore, was in the dark.

A cap with a big bill that shades the face; sunscreen/sunblock applied regularly; and lip balm to protect the lips are standard, among other precautions--and that is for spending minimal time in the sun. And I am supposed to believe that bikinis are healthy and that anybody who has a problem with them is a prude?

2.) While people quarrel over the sexual aspect of "revealing" clothing, women's right to dress however they please, men's responsibility for their own thoughts, etc., I assert that things like shorts, bikinis, swimwear in general, etc. are mostly about our obsession with and worship of the sun. For whatever reason, it is cool (no pun intended) to spend as much time as possibly dressed as little as possible in the sun.

I am an Anthropology major, so I can easily think of possible biocultural explanations. A popular explanation is that sun exposure has health benefits such as Vitamin D production. The sun is the energy source that supports all life on Earth, of course, so maybe it is instinctual for people to revere the sun. Then, there are things like Seasonal Affective Disorder. Maybe SAD occurs disproportionately in the populations of the sun-worshiping cultures; kind of like how people in the United States are lactose tolerant while people in Africa and Latin America are lactose intolerant (just going by memory of what I have read; don't quote me on any of it). But whatever is at the root of it--be it purely biological, purely cultural, or some intersection of biology and culture--I intuit that the cultural phenomenon of things like bikinis has more to do with our obsession with the sun than with sexual liberalism.

That obsession with and worship of the sun is impacting the landscape in a number of ways. Indigenous cultures and livelihoods in the southern hemisphere are being destroyed to make way for resorts and other tourist attractions to be consumed by the wealthy consumers of the U.S. and Europe. Harsh places with little water have been settled by large populations seeking a sunny climate to live in. To support those populations in such harsh environments taxpayers have had to pay for numerous engineering projects. As a result, we get statistics to the effect of "For every $1.00 California taxpayers send to Washington, D.C. they get $2.00 back; for every $1.00 that Indiana taxpayers send to Washington, D.C. they get $0.80 back." That is just a few examples--I have barely scratched the surface.

I find most of the clothing of the sun-worshiping culture to be in poor taste. Notice that I didn't say it is immodest, indecent, sinful, etc. I said that it is in poor taste. I have no formal or informal education in the principles and theories of fashion design, so maybe I don't know what I am talking about. But it seems to me that while things like business suits are designed like the finest cuisine that stuff like swimwear is designed and mass-produced like quick-service, chain-restaurant hamburgers.

That is my personal tastes, opinions, beliefs, values, etc., with some anthropological and geographical analysis thrown in. Now for philosophy...

A recurring theme in the thinking of those who have defended bikinis, thongs, etc. is comfort. Bikinis are about what is most comfortable in the sun and in the water, it has been asserted. Therefore, they are morally acceptable, the thinking continues. Therefore, people should respect other people's right to dress comfortably without being ridiculed, sexually harassed, laughed at, etc., it has been concluded. Okay. Fine.

If we assume the latter empirical and moral statements to be true and to be logically connected, then it follows that everybody should be able to present himself or herself however he or she feels comfortable, does it not? Therefore, if somebody is more comfortable wearing long sleeves in July because they protect him from UV radiation and ultimately from skin cancer, people should respect that, right? Same with long pants. Yet, I am often ridiculed for not wearing shorts. "Aren't you hot in those jeans?", people ask in a tone that suggests they think that I am strange or that there is something wrong with me.

Wait a minute. I thought we are all supposed to see past things like our own biochemical responses to other people's dress and our own cultural values and respect everybody's right to dress however they feel comfortable. Why the inconsistency when it comes to people who prefer to expose as little as possible? It's not just about protecting oneself from the sun. For reasons such as religion, personal tastes in clothing, and personal ideals about body image, one might prefer to show very little skin. Yet, such people are going to be prejudged as being prudes, said to be pathologically anxious about their body image and/or their sexuality, said to be living "a sheltered life", told that they need to "live a little", etc., etc. (I know from experience). Again, why the inconsistency?
 
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Archivist

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LOVEthroughINTELLECT said:
1.) Bikinis, public nudity, etc. are foolish. Has anybody heard of skin cancer? Even in the winter in cold climates where people don't go to beaches and dress "comfortably" there is great risk of harmful UV exposure, it is my understanding. Hmm...do skiers use sunscreen/sunblock while on the slopes of Colorado and Vermont? (Do the sunscreens/sunblocks on the market even work in cold temperatures?) Yet, not only do people fail to minimize their exposure to sunlight, they go to tanning beds when they aren't at the beach, working in the garden, etc.

We haven't been discussing the health aspects of wearing a bikini, but rather any moral ramifications. Sun exposure is certainly a concern for many. That's why we have sun screen.

2.) I find most of the clothing of the sun-worshiping culture to be in poor taste. Notice that I didn't say it is immodest, indecent, sinful, etc. I said that it is in poor taste. I have no formal or informal education in the principles and theories of fashion design, so maybe I don't know what I am talking about. But it seems to me that while things like business suits are designed like the finest cuisine that stuff like swimwear is designed and mass-produced like quick-service, chain-restaurant hamburgers.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I disagree. I have seen some very uglay business suits and some very attractive swimwear.

A recurring theme in the thinking of those who have defended bikinis, thongs, etc. is comfort. Bikinis are about what is most comfortable in the sun and in the water, it has been asserted. Therefore, they are morally acceptable, the thinking continues. Therefore, people should respect other people's right to dress comfortably without being ridiculed, sexually harassed, laughed at, etc., it has been concluded. Okay. Fine.

If we assume the latter empirical and moral statements to be true and to be logically connected, then it follows that everybody should be able to present himself or herself however he or she feels comfortable, does it not? Therefore, if somebody is more comfortable wearing long sleeves in July because they protect him from UV radiation and ultimately from skin cancer, people should respect that, right? Same with long pants. Yet, I am often ridiculed for not wearing shorts. "Aren't you hot in those jeans?", people ask in a tone that suggests they think that I am strange or that there is something wrong with me.

Wait a minute. I thought we are all supposed to see past things like our own biochemical responses to other people's dress and our own cultural values and respect everybody's right to dress however they feel comfortable. Why the inconsistency when it comes to people who prefer to expose as little as possible? It's not just about protecting oneself from the sun. For reasons such as religion, personal tastes in clothing, and personal ideals about body image, one might prefer to show very little skin. Yet, such people are going to be prejudged as being prudes, said to be pathologically anxious about their body image and/or their sexuality, said to be living "a sheltered life", told that they need to "live a little", etc., etc. (I know from experience). Again, why the inconsistency?

I don't know of anyone on this thread who has said such things--no inconsistancy here.
 
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Natman

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Eudaimonist said:
What are your views about the appropriate minimal levels of attire for women in public? I'm talking about moral norms, not laws. In your vision of the ideal world:

First I would like to say that I am a very conservative Christian (Baptist) naturist. Meaning that I believe that there is absolutly nothing wrong or sinful with the naked human body. I believe that we are all made in the "image of God" for His glory and as a "Temple for His Holy Spirit". Where the first Adam tried to hide his guilt by covering his own body with leaves, the Second Adam, Christ Jesus, provided us with the PERFECT covering of our guilt through His rightious atonement on the cross. As such we should no longer be ashamed of our bodies or have reason to hide them behind pieces of rag, except as protection from the elements.

So to answer your questions:

1) How nude may women get at a "family" (i.e. regular public) beach? Birthday suit? Thong bikini? A more concealing two-piece swimsuit? One-piece swimsuit? Victorian swimwear?

I believe that little pieces of cloth that cover only the "sexual" parts of the body are far more alluring than full nudity. For that purpose, I believe that thongs, "teeny-weeny-bikinis" and speedos are worse than total nudity. In some of my other posts, I note that it is better to swim, particularly in the ocean, without a suit that will hold sand and tiny organisms up against the skin (usually the most tender skin).

Also, as far as skin cancer is concerned, there is very little difference between tanning totally naked, versus tanning in a thong, bikini, two piece, speedo or even a Victorian gown. Too much sun is still too much sun.

The truth be known, our bodies were designed by God to require a certain amount of natural sunshine per day for the proper production of Vitamin "D". According to recent articles in the American Journal of Medicine, this substance, vital to the propper processiong and assimilation of calcium, is not absorbed easily through oral means, but is readily created by exposing the skin to varying amounts of sunlight. Lack of "D" is know to increase likelihood of ALS, Alzheimers Disease, breast cancer, prostate cancer, brain cancer and a host of neuralogical and conective tissue disorders. But, like anything else, too much of a good thing can hurt you as well.

2) Would nude beaches exist at all?

Why wouldn't nude beaches exist? Most of the beaches throughout Europe are already top-free and many are clothing optional or nude, and there are several already here in the USA, particulaly in Florida and California.

Would public nudity be acceptable anywhere?

Although I personally would see nothing wrong with it, there are plenty of times it is merely practical to be clothed.

3) What about levels of appropriate attire in different public settings, such as a park? A restaurant?

I know that there are already several puiblic parks in Germany where nude sunbathing is allowed, and there are also several restaurants throughout the world that serve meals to nude patrons. I think, however the various health and safety regulations would require the cook and wait staff to have some form of attire.

Also, I am sure that many restaurants would continue to require some for of dress code. For example, a restaurant that caters to upper class patrons would probably continue to require a cote and tie, if for no other reason, than to set themselves apart from the common people.


Son-cerely,
Nathan Powers
 
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LOVEthroughINTELLECT

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Archivist said:
We haven't been discussing the health aspects of wearing a bikini, but rather any moral ramifications. Sun exposure is certainly a concern for many. That's why we have sun screen.


Doesn't public health have moral ramifications? AIDS, obesity, smoking, and mercury from industrial emissions getting into the bloodstreams of fetuses are treated as moral issues.

Different reports keep confirming that many Americans--especially younger people, it seems--are not heeding the warnings about the dangers of UV and are carelessly sunbathing and doing other things that expose them to dangerous levels of UV. And many people are not protecting themselves when they are in the sun. It is similar to how a lot of smokers at their own hazard continue to stubbornly ignore the public health warnings about smoking. And just like Big Tobacco used things like Joe Camel to encourage young people to smoke, the apparel industry and other industries that supply goods to sun-obsessed consumers use their marketing to encourage behavior detrimental to people's health.

Anyway, my thesis was that bikinis and thongs are more about our obsession with and worship of the sun than about sexual morality. The skin cancer problem was brought up to support my thesis.



Archivist said:
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I disagree. I have seen some very uglay business suits and some very attractive swimwear.



I didn't say that business suits are never ugly. Nor did I say that swimwear is never attractive. I simply said that things like swimwear and shorts are of poor taste.

There is good swimwear and there is bad swimwear, but either way it is not fine clothing. Just like there were good cookie cutter multi-purpose sports stadiums (Bush Stadium, St. Louis, MO, was always immaculate) and there were bad ones (Veterans Stadium, Philadelphia, PA; stories about rats crashing through the ceiling into coaches' offices and cats in the stadium preying on the rats) when such facilities were popular, but purists everywhere agree that only the Fenway Parks and Michigan Stadiums (Univ. of Mich.) of the world are fine theatres of sport.




Archivist said:
I don't know of anyone on this thread who has said such things--no inconsistancy here.



I said that if we assume to be true the reasoning of those who have defended bikinis that it follows that people who dress to expose only minimal skin also have the right to dress in the way that they feel comfortable and also deserve everybody's respect of their choices, but that my and other people's experience has been otherwise. I didn't say that anybody in this thread acted otherwise--I said my and other people's experience has been otherwise. I simply took the reasoning that a lot of people had articulated and looked at its philosophical implications.
 
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skinner

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Natman said:
First I would like to say that I am a very conservative Christian (Baptist) naturist. Meaning that I believe that there is absolutly nothing wrong or sinful with the naked human body. I believe that we are all made in the "image of God" for His glory and as a "Temple for His Holy Spirit". Where the first Adam tried to hide his guilt by covering his own body with leaves, the Second Adam, Christ Jesus, provided us with the PERFECT covering of our guilt through His rightious atonement on the cross. As such we should no longer be ashamed of our bodies or have reason to hide them behind pieces of rag, except as protection from the elements.

Nathan Powers

That's about the most bizarre bit of theology I've heard in a long time.

God made clothes for Adam and Eve. I don't remember anything in the NT indicating that man was now in such a perfect state of grace that he could take them back off.
 
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skinner said:
That's about the most bizarre bit of theology I've heard in a long time.

God made clothes for Adam and Eve. I don't remember anything in the NT indicating that man was now in such a perfect state of grace that he could take them back off.

Actually Adam and Eve made their own clothing. God merely replaced the clothing they created with something that would last longer. Please note: this assumes that you believe in a literal interpretation of the Garden story which I do not.
 
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skinner

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Archivist said:
Actually Adam and Eve made their own clothing. God merely replaced the clothing they created with something that would last longer. Please note: this assumes that you believe in a literal interpretation of the Garden story which I do not.

Yeah, well fig leaves aren't very durable. Note that like me, God believes wearing leather and fur is cool.:D
The point is, that God did not say, "Hey lose the clothes." and neithor did Jesus nor his disciples after the resurection.
 
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Natman

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skinner said:
That's about the most bizarre bit of theology I've heard in a long time.

God made clothes for Adam and Eve. I don't remember anything in the NT indicating that man was now in such a perfect state of grace that he could take them back off.

There are some really good discussions about this in the nudism and naturism threads on this forum.

RC Sproul talks about this also in two of his books, "The Holiness of God" and "The Shattered Image". His most recent exerpt is currently available on his website www.ligonier.org as yesterday's lesson.

Check them out, then tell me why you think that simply being naked is sinful and why God clothed A&E in the first (second) place .

Son-cerely,
Nathan Powers
 
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Archivist

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skinner said:
Yeah, well fig leaves aren't very durable. Note that like me, God believes wearing leather and fur is cool.:D
The point is, that God did not say, "Hey lose the clothes." and neithor did Jesus nor his disciples after the resurection.

You are right that God did not say "lose the clothes," but neither did he order that clothing be worn in every situation.

Scripture indicates that Peter might have been fishing naked when Jesus saw him after the resurection. I understand that a mosaic found in the ruins of an early Christian church dating from the 300's depicted him as having been naked.
 
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Natman

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Archivist said:
You are right that God did not say "lose the clothes," but neither did he order that clothing be worn in every situation.

Scripture indicates that Peter might have been fishing naked when Jesus saw him after the resurection. I understand that a mosaic found in the ruins of an early Christian church dating from the 300's depicted him as having been naked.

Nudity was VERY common in Jesus' day. According to historical evidence, common tasks such as fishing or working in the fields were performed in the nude because to do otherwise would destroy one's only set of clothing. Most families lived in either one-room houses or one-room tents, where people generally slept naked and had sexual relations with other family members present. Bathing was communal in only a few pools around around major cities (one of Jesus' favorite hangouts) or in creeks, streams and lakes. Even Baptisms (mikvehs) were done in the nude and in the presence of several witnesses under Jewish cerimonial law.

This carried on to some extent even into America as pioneers traveled and establish homesites across the American wilderness.

Actually, up until about 200 years ago, the sight of a naked human body was no more outrageous than to see a horse without a harness. It just happened and no one made a big deal about it. (Think two, three and four holed out houses.)

Son-cerely,
Nathan Powers
 
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