Bikinis: Right or Thong

[Eudaimonist]

Since the "Bikini, Right or Wrong" topic has turned into a debate regarding who is responsible for rape, I thought I'd start a topic to get back to the issue of modesty.

What are your views about the appropriate minimal levels of attire for women in public? I'm talking about moral norms, not laws. In your vision of the ideal world:

1) How nude may women get at a "family" (i.e. regular public) beach? Birthday suit? Thong bikini? A more concealing two-piece swimsuit? One-piece swimsuit? Victorian swimwear?

2) Would nude beaches exist at all? Would public nudity be acceptable anywhere?

3) What about levels of appropriate attire in different public settings, such as a park? A restaurant?

 

[Spinrad]

My views of modesty are very very liberal. I think in the other thread the point I was making was more about hoe modesty is presented biblically, and how folks tend to do what they want and justify it later even when they claim to be followers of biblical morality.

So to the questions I would say in a free society modesty is simply that which calls no undue attention to one's self. If the world is nude and you have on a bathing suit you are immodest.

 

[butterfoot]

Since the "Bikini, Right or Wrong" topic has turned into a debate regarding who is responsible for rape, I thought I'd start a topic to get back to the issue of modesty.

What are your views about the appropriate minimal levels of attire for women in public? I'm talking about moral norms, not laws. In your vision of the ideal world:

1) How nude may women get at a "family" (i.e. regular public) beach? Birthday suit? Thong bikini? A more concealing two-piece swimsuit? One-piece swimsuit? Victorian swimwear?

2) Would nude beaches exist at all? Would public nudity be acceptable anywhere?

3) What about levels of appropriate attire in different public settings, such as a park? A restaurant?

1.
I think a decent two-piece would be ok. Definately not a thong at the beach. I also don't think guys should wear those tight speedos.

2. Nude beach? I wouldn't go to one, but I am sure there are many people who would. I don't see no problem with it as long as its only adults allowed and its well concealed from public view.

3. Today fashion is bringing this question up I would guess. To a park I would guess a bathing suit to fully clothed would be fine. Depending on the Restaurant. I would say nothing to revealing but decently covered.


-cw

 

[vanshan]

Is it wrong if we cause someone else to sin? Are we responsible for the affect we have on others? This is the underlying question with this issue.

What is wrong with a woman in a thong bikini or even a muscle-bound man wearing a speedo? I think it's wrong because both actions fail to use modest precautions to keep from causing others to stumble by lusting after you. Sure, some say a some man would lust after anything, even a woman in a body length parka. Yes, this is true, but by being modest, I would say she has relieved her participation in that mans sin, so his lustful eyes condemn him only and not the woman who has at least tried to reduce the risk of being the object of lust. Who would argue that a woman in a thong bikini wouldn't get more lustful glances than the other in a parka?

Basil

P.S. Also as a male, I would, on one level, love to see women wearing bikinis everywhere. I would find it very hard to keep from glancing at them, but if I want to serve Christ, I cannot allow these passionate feeling to pull me around like a dog on a leash.

 

[psychedelicist]

Depends on how hot the woman in question is. I'm all for nudity, but let's face it, some people are just better off with their clothes on. Only a small minority of women can look good in a bikini (but luckily, most of them that do realize that they do, and hang out att he beach alot)

 

[Eudaimonist]

Depends on how hot the woman in question is. I'm all for nudity, but let's face it, some people are just better off with their clothes on. Only a small minority of women can look good in a bikini (but luckily, most of them that do realize that they do, and hang out att he beach alot)

I've been to a nude beach several times, so I know what you mean. But I'm not asking who you would personally like to see at a nude beach, but what sort of attire you think is appropriate as a general principle.

 

[psychedelicist]

I've been to a nude beach several times, so I know what you mean. But I'm not asking who you would personally like to see at a nude beach, but what sort of attire you think is appropriate as a general principle.

Yeah, just an important point I thought I'd bring ot attention. I do think though that if people want to walk around in their birthday suit they have that right, though I might not like it a whole lot.

 

[NothingButTheBlood]

I have always been a modest person. Even before I was saved. I believe we are born with 4 things:

Our name: Given to us by our parents
Our soul: Which belongs to God (whether we believe in him or not)
Our mind: Which has been cultivated and influenced by others. Even if we are "free-thinkers" we have be influenced to think that way.
Our body: The one thing that no matter what is ours. Rich, poor,sick, healthy, we are stuck with it until we die and no longer need it anymore.

I say all that to say my body is important to me. It's the one thing I have that's completely mine. I feel my husband, being my friend and my partner, has earned the right to be the only one to see my body. Along with everything else I have choose to share with him, my body is also something that should be kept for him. I dress conservatively and would not wear a bikini because I would be allowing other men to see my in basically my underware. I don't think that is appropiate for one and I feel only my husband has that right. I wouldn't go to the mall that way, why go to the beach that way.

Anyhow that's a long answer but that is why I am modest. I think it's important for a women to decide if her body is a gift or a tool.

 

[TeddyKGB]

Is it wrong if we cause someone else to sin? Are we responsible for the affect we have on others? This is the underlying question with this issue.

What is wrong with a woman in a thong bikini or even a muscle-bound man wearing a speedo? I think it's wrong because both actions fail to use modest precautions to keep from causing others to stumble by lusting after you. Sure, some say a some man would lust after anything, even a woman in a body length parka. Yes, this is true, but by being modest, I would say she has relieved her participation in that mans sin, so his lustful eyes condemn him only and not the woman who has at least tried to reduce the risk of being the object of lust. Who would argue that a woman in a thong bikini wouldn't get more lustful glances than the other in a parka?

If you are going to make this argument, though, doesn't there need to be a standard? You can't just throw out the most obvious examples then proclaim that a dichtomy has been established.

When is a woman's modesty sufficient to absolve her from encouraging lust? When she wears a tank-top? A t-shirt? A flimsy blouse? A robust blouse?

P.S. Also as a male, I would, on one level, love to see women wearing bikinis everywhere. I would find it very hard to keep from glancing at them, but if I want to serve Christ, I cannot allow these passionate feeling to pull me around like a dog on a leash.

Would such feelings pull you around regardless, or do we exacerbate them by Puritanically covering up, thereby feeding the tautology that we should cover up because we can't control ourselves otherwise?

 

[Nymphalidae]

I also don't think guys should wear those tight speedos.

I think they should. Oh, yeah.

 

[vanshan]

Would such feelings pull you around regardless, or do we exacerbate them by Puritanically covering up, thereby feeding the tautology that we should cover up because we can't control ourselves otherwise?

I don't think so. The whole phobia of repressing our passions seems absurd-- as if we would explode if we cannot gratify ourselves. I think it takes more than trying not to look to control these temptations, which is why the ancient Christian Church prescribled disciplines of daily prayer and fasting to help gain control over our distorted desires. In the Orthodox Church we fast almost every Wednesday and Friday, as well as 40 days before Easter and Christmas. These are not compete fasts from all food, but just fasts from all meat and dairly as well as reduced amounts of food. They are not required legalistically, but instead are prescribed to help us overcome sin.

Basil

 

[Maynard Keenan]

I think butt cheeks hangin free thongs are a tad much at a "family" beach but a "regulr" bikini is fine. Nude beaches are fine. Everyone there wants it and expects it so there is no offense or anything, plus there is no sin in being naked.

 

[TeddyKGB]

I don't think so. The whole phobia of repressing our passions seems absurd-- as if we would explode if we cannot gratify ourselves.

That is a pretty extreme interpretation of my argument. I am saying that we do our psyches a disservice by constantly reminding ourselves that we would not be able to control our desires were it not for stragetically-placed pieces of fabric. The sex-crime statistics of more sexually liberal nations seem to bear this out (at least a correlation exists) in comparison to the US.

I think it takes more than trying not to look to control these temptations, which is why the ancient Christian Church prescribled disciplines of daily prayer and fasting to help gain control over our distorted desires. In the Orthodox Church we fast almost every Wednesday and Friday, as well as 40 days before Easter and Christmas. These are not compete fasts from all food, but just fasts from all meat and dairly as well as reduced amounts of food. They are not required legalistically, but instead are prescribed to help us overcome sin.

I think if you need to stop eating hamburgers and drinking milkshakes in order to control your sexual urges at age 33, you might consider asking God why he gave you such an overactive libido.

 

[vanshan]

That is a pretty extreme interpretation of my argument. I am saying that we do our psyches a disservice by constantly reminding ourselves that we would not be able to control our desires were it not for stragetically-placed pieces of fabric. The sex-crime statistics of more sexually liberal nations seem to bear this out (at least a correlation exists) in comparison to the US.

I think if you need to stop eating hamburgers and drinking milkshakes in order to control your sexual urges at age 33, you might consider asking God why he gave you such an overactive libido.

Are you saying sex crimes are less in sexually liberal societies?

We are all plagued by different passions, whether it's an inability to talk less, eating too much, anger, etc. So those fast, which train us to have discipline over our bodies, help subdue those passions, so that they do not master us and lead us around like bulls with rings in our noses.

Basil

 

[Archivist]

I personally believe that people should be allowed to wear what they want in the proper situation. A woman in a bikini is certainly fine on a beach or at the pool or laying out in the yard. A bikini would not be suitable in a church or a courtroom or an office. This would likewise apply to men--a bathing suit (speedo or otherwise) might be appropriate at a beach but not at work.

I personally would take this one step futher and say that women should be permitted to go topless anyplace taht men can go topless. I have yet to see one good reason offered for our double standard on this issue.

Having said that, I take issue with those who said that women should not wear bikinis because it might cause men to sin. Taking that to its logical conclusion, we should ban nice automobiles (envy), nice clothing (also envy), McDonalds (gluttony), high-paying jobs (greed), etc. The fact is that we are also responsioble for our own actions. If an attractive woman in a bathing suit causes you to sin and that bothers you then don't look. However, don't put the blame on her.

 

[""]

1) How nude may women get at a "family" (i.e. regular public) beach? Birthday suit? Thong bikini? A more concealing two-piece swimsuit? One-piece swimsuit? Victorian swimwear?

I have thong bikini's but I wear them at home in my pool and no where else. I don't think a thong should be worn at a family beach. That's just rude, and it's all about attention getting when you wear them in public like that. Now, if it's an adult based beach, or if you're on a honeymoon or vacation with your spouse, and the beach is private... wear whatever you want. There's nothing wrong with seducing your spouse. It's normal and totally appropriate. No sense in seducing the neighborhood high school kid by walking up and down your sidewalk in a thong, or showing the entire beach (including 8 year old kenny and 6 year old susie) your backside. As for what high school aged girls should wear, that's up to their parents. I'm very careful about that sort of thing, as I don't want to set a bad example for the neighborhood high school kids or college boys home for the summer. I don't want to be known as the pamela anderson of the block. Now some people do, I suppose, but that's kind of icky, isn't it?

The majority of people are going to say "ehhh.... gross!" to most people dressing like that in public anyway. Reason? Only a select few look good in a thong. Most of those who assume that they do, are wrong. Nobody wants to see some chubby, dimpled butt, or worse, flat and saggy butt, on somebody when they go to the beach to have fun with their family. For the men who wear them, nobody wants to see a hairy old butt either. Speedos? Where is that vomit smilie when you need it.

2) Would nude beaches exist at all? Would public nudity be acceptable anywhere?
Sure, if they're private. As far as nudists go though, I'm opposed to closing down their beaches. They have the right to have their beaches, as long as they're not trying to infringe on the rights of regular beach goers by getting nude at a public beach.

3) What about levels of appropriate attire in different public settings, such as a park? A restaurant?
Wear whatever you want, but at least be intelligent enough to know that if you're going to wear something that would be appropriate at your backyard swimming pool, to a bank or a business meeting, you're going to get some responses you probably won't like, including laughter. The idea that the laughter is only the fault of the one who is laughing, in a situation such as this, is ridiculous. What do you think would happen if I just pop into a class at one of the colleges here, wearing a baby doll nighty, and a big smile? According to some of you (in the other topic like this one) you should just keep your eyes front and center I guess. No laughs and certainly no whispers (according to those of you who think it's the laughers problem), and definitely no whistles and the like. You're just not supposed to notice, and if you do, it's not my fault, according to some of you.

 

[glo]

Women should not be held responsible for a man's sin of lust.
The "we should help keep our brothers from falling into lust by being modest" arguement is stupid. What's with the double standard when looking at other less glaring sins like greed, gluttony, sloth, envy and pride? Should we be banning everything from buffet restaurants, the lottery, spas and vacation getaways, and luxury goods?
Requiring women to cover up where men do not have to is further objectifying women, as if only a "special man" (i.e. husband) may have the privilege of uncovering her, whereas for men there is no such a thing.

And regarding who's fault it is in sexual assaults:
It's a man's fault for falling into lust and it is a man's responsibility to keep himself in check.
It is not my fault if a man whistles at me or assaults me. He's generally an immoral person if he's going to go around and hurt people without regard for the feelings of others. It is the man's fault in sexual assaults, as it would be my responsibility to stop myself from carjacking a beautiful silver Porsche I might see. The fault of the car owner that decided to drive in a nice car? No, it is mine, the criminal.

 

[jsfox]

Beach? Whatever people are comfortable with including nude. For those who think that it creates temptation problems for guys or that seeing overweight and old people in the buff is gross - think again. For most people it only takes a day or two to completely normalize to all aspects of it if you grew up in the US. You quickly learn to appreciate the people instead of judging their bodies. For most guys it actually reduces temptation. An interesting blog on the subject (start at bottom):

http://www.livejournal.com/users/capdagde

No kid is harmed by visiting a nude or clothing optional beach - they aclimate to it in an hour. Guys who have grown up around natural nudity face far fewer problems with sexual temptation than those who grow up visiting the bikini strutting beaches in the US.

Something interesting to think about. Europe is fairly open regarding nudity on beaches, in parks, and other places. They also do not criminalize prostitution except in one of the scandinavian countries. Yet, they have 1/5 the rape and about 1/3 the teen pregnancy and divorce as we do in the moral bikini clad US.

Other Places? Whatever is appropriate and called for by culture or practicality. My one judgemental thought - guys really shouldn't wear tank tops except at the beach or other similar setting.

 

[""]

It is not my fault if a man whistles at me or assaults me. He's generally an immoral person if he's going to go around and hurt people without regard for the feelings of others

I am in full agreement with you on this, but, I also believe that as a woman I am responsible for how I dress in public. I think that if a woman is walking around in places where it is not appropriate (bank, child care agency, business meeting, etc)to wear a thong bikini, or a baby doll nighty, or hooker boots (that's what my friends and I used to call thigh high black boots with 6 inch spike heels during our dance club days), and is still dressed like that, then she does hold some personal responsibility for the laughs, catcalls, and so on.

Anyway, if you want to continue along the line of this rape issue, we're doing that in the other topic about bikini's... (bikini's right or wrong). I just thought I'd mention that so that this one isn't hijacked as well.

 

[""]

Something interesting to think about. Europe is fairly open regarding nudity on beaches, in parks, and other places. They also do not criminalize prostitution except in one of the scandinavian countries. Yet, they have 1/5 the rape and about 1/3 the teen pregnancy and divorce as we do in the moral bikini clad US.

I lived in europe for 2 years, and I've been to the beaches there. Some are topless. Quite a few are not. I didn't have a problem with either, but that's their "norm", not our norm here. So it's not really applicable. I do see your point though.

As far as the divorce rate being lower there, it is helpful to know that in europe cheating on your spouse (having lovers, etc) is acceptable in many countries. It's overlooked. That's why their divorce rate is lower. In the USA, we have different standards, and when one cheats on his or her spouse, the majority of marriages will end in divorce.