Big question.

[Walker-Texas-Ranger]

I have been really struggling with the teachings of Calvinism lately. I have been reading Romans, and have come upon some, seeming to be, Calvinistic verses. I have been doing alot of thinking, and it has really been bringing me down:
1. according to Calvin (and possibly these verses), we have no free will, so God has predestined everything. So that means that my life, and everyone else's life is just being run by some big, "Puppet master" in heaven.
2. I did not choose God, He choose me. My friend John on the other hand, God did not choose. So God created him for the sole purpose of sending him to hell? So God chooses only some people? I thought he loves everyone, if He did, why wouldn't He just, "Choose" everyone?
3. If God preordained everything, wouldn't that make him the author of evil?

This has really been on my mind lately friends, I do not know what to think, is God really just picking and choosing everyone based on nothing?
So Jesus only died for some?
Whats the point of going out and preaching? If God only picks and chooses a select (or elect) few, where does evangelism come into play?
What are some other verses that point to different teachings?
I just want to know the truth and serve God the way the Bible teaches.
I hope someone can help me, I feel as if I'm at dead end.

 

[pro_odeh]

1. according to Calvin (and possibly these verses), we have no free will, so God has predestined everything. So that means that my life, and everyone else's life is just being run by some big, "Puppet master" in heaven.

God knows everything, but we still have A will. If He knows that you are going to do something, doesnt make it less your choice, He just knew. And I dont like to use the term free will. We have A will, to choose between Jesus or satan as the lord of our life. The rest is affected by that choice..

2. I did not choose God, He choose me. My friend John on the other hand, God did not choose. So God created him for the sole purpose of sending him to hell? So God chooses only some people? I thought he loves everyone, if He did, why wouldn't He just, "Choose" everyone?

God did choose everyone! and He wants everyone to be with Him. The question is if the person wants to choose God. That is what determens if they go to hell or not. He loves everyone, and doesnt want anyone to be doomed. But some people choose not to except Him, and so they get their will, and are left by Him for all eternety..

3. If God preordained everything, wouldn't that make him the author of evil?

God is the essence of good, so there can come no evil from Him, so no! But remember that good things can be abused. The will man have (witch I am very thankful for, and use it to praise God with) can, and is being abused into doing evil.
Let me give an example: A knife can be a very useful tool. In the kitchen, in nature, at work and so on. It helps us every day. but it can also be used to kill..

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Timothy 2: 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hope this was a little clarifying.. please ask if there is something that still is unclear!
God bless you!

 

[Wedge]

1. according to Calvin (and possibly these verses), we have no free will, so God has predestined everything. So that means that my life, and everyone else's life is just being run by some big, "Puppet master" in heaven.

What verses are you speaking of? Could you please list them so we could have a reference to work from?

2. I did not choose God, He choose me. My friend John on the other hand, God did not choose. So God created him for the sole purpose of sending him to hell?

We don't know who God has called to Him. Therefore, we must make evangelize (many different ways of doing this one, IMHO) to all we know/meet. Just because he hasn't called him to himself yet, doesn't mean that He won't call him later in his life.

Your friend John may not know the Lord now, but sometime in the furture, he may. I have friends who didn't know the Lord when I first met them, but because they see how the Lord impacts my life, they are at least curious to ask more questions. I pray for my friends that they may come to know the Lord someday.

So God chooses only some people? I thought he loves everyone, if He did, why wouldn't He just, "Choose" everyone?

He did choose everyone, but since we do have free will (IMHO), we can choose to reject Him. He will not force us to choose Him.

3. If God preordained everything, wouldn't that make him the author of evil?

No, it wouldn't. Evil is something that is not created by God, but is a result of separation from Him.

This has really been on my mind lately friends, I do not know what to think, is God really just picking and choosing everyone based on nothing?

We don't know how He is choosing those He calls. I know I don't know what criteria he uses for choosing, so therefore, I must be even more active in my spreading of the word.

So Jesus only died for some?

He died for all, and doesn't want anyone separated from Him, it is up to the individual if they will accept Him.

Whats the point of going out and preaching? If God only picks and chooses a select (or elect) few, where does evangelism come into play?

We don't know who he has chosen. For all we know, it would take you (yes specifically you because you have a different testimony when coming to Chrust than others) to start off one person or another down the path to salvation.

What are some other verses that point to different teachings?

Not quite sure what you mean by this one. Could you clarify this point more?

I just want to know the truth and serve God the way the Bible teaches.
I hope someone can help me, I feel as if I'm at dead end.

As we all do. I pray that what I have written is helpful to you. God Bless!

 

[Dmckay]

God knows everything, but we still have A will. If He knows that you are going to do something, doesnt make it less your choice, He just knew. And I dont like to use the term free will. We have A will, to choose between Jesus or satan as the lord of our life. The rest is affected by that choice..

God did choose everyone! and He wants everyone to be with Him. The question is if the person wants to choose God. That is what determens if they go to hell or not. He loves everyone, and doesnt want anyone to be doomed. But some people choose not to except Him, and so they get their will, and are left by Him for all eternety..

God is the essence of good, so there can come no evil from Him, so no! But remember that good things can be abused. The will man have (witch I am very thankful for, and use it to praise God with) can, and is being abused into doing evil.
Let me give an example: A knife can be a very useful tool. In the kitchen, in nature, at work and so on. It helps us every day. but it can also be used to kill..

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Timothy 2: 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hope this was a little clarifying.. please ask if there is something that still is unclear!
God bless you!

I would be careful throwing around all of those "alls" if I were you. You are precariously close to teaching Universalism, and the Scriptures are clear that not ALL will be saved.

 

[pro_odeh]

I would be careful throwing around all of those "alls" if I were you. You are precariously close to teaching Universalism, and the Scriptures are clear that not ALL will be saved.

Oh, I am sorry. I meant to show that Jesus died for ALL people, because he wanted ALL people to be saved. That doesnt mean that all are saved. Its make ready for everyone, but far from all except the free gift our heavenly Father gives us.
God bless!

 

[Tinkerbell222222]

Hm...I'm not sure that a thread on Calvinism belongs in Christian Apologetics....Perhaps one of the Mods would move it to a more suitable forum?

But anyway, hopefully I'll provide a decent Reformed answer to some of the questions.

I have been really struggling with the teachings of Calvinism lately. I have been reading Romans, and have come upon some, seeming to be, Calvinistic verses. I have been doing alot of thinking, and it has really been bringing me down:

Yes, there are many verses in support of Calvinism in the Bible, but it shouldn't bring you down. Calvinism is wonderful because it gives GOD all the glory, not man. It says our salvation does not depend on us, it says that God raised us from the dead...it says God's grace has done everything--even given us faith! It shouldn't be something that brings you down, because Calvinism gives God all the glory.

1. according to Calvin (and possibly these verses), we have no free will, so God has predestined everything. So that means that my life, and everyone else's life is just being run by some big, "Puppet master" in heaven.

Calvinism doesn't teach a complete removal of free-will. It simply teaches that God's sovereignty "out weighs" man's free-will. Man can't go against God's will, because God is sovereign in everything, yet he can still choose. I don't completely understand this, but somehow, free-will has not left, it has just been restrained.
But, how is God's sovereignty a bad thing? I find it very comforting to know that I have a Perfect God in Heaven ordaining every action, every event, every minute of my life in exact detail. If my life were left up to me, think what a mess I'd make of it! Fortunately, though, God with His infinite wisdom and strength is in control.

2. I did not choose God, He choose me. My friend John on the other hand, God did not choose. So God created him for the sole purpose of sending him to hell? So God chooses only some people? I thought he loves everyone, if He did, why wouldn't He just, "Choose" everyone?

First of all, every single person (with the exception of Christ) that has ever lived, is now living, or ever
will live, deserves Hell. Period. Case closed. We all ought to be burning in torment right now--no matter what religion, denomination, or philosophy, no matter what actions anyone has done--everyone deserves punishment. I think we both understand this....we also both understand that Calvinism teaches that God chooses to save some, according to His pleasure and will.

You ask if God is loving why doesn't he save everyone. I say that the reason God does save some is because He is loving. God really shouldn't save anyone. Yet He, for some unknown reason saves some of us. I don't know the mind of God, so I couldn't tell you His reason for saving me...it amazes me that He would choose some one like me, though. I still haven't really answered your question as to why God doesn't save everyone, though...

Hm...let me ask you something, Why does God's love mandate that He chooses everyone? Why would God be compelled to choose everyone? He loves all yes, He is also obliged to show justice.

3. If God preordained everything, wouldn't that make him the author of evil?

No! Let me explain...Satan was originally an angel, yes? The relationship God's soveriegnty and angelic free-will is different than that of God's sovereignty and human free-will. I've not studied it much, so I can't tell you how or why, but some how, God didn't necesarily cause Satan to fall. Satan, in wanting to be God caused the first evil. God in His sovereignty, allows Satan, the author of evil, if you will, to lure us into sin, and allows us to follow Him, perhaps so that His light will seem to shine all the brighter in us, once we return to Him, perhaps to make His grace and mercy all the more precious to us. I don't know. But God's will in letting us sin, sometimes does have a purpose.

This has really been on my mind lately friends, I do not know what to think, is God really just picking and choosing everyone based on nothing?

It isn't based on nothing. It's based on His will...which, I admit, seems very circular. I am sure God has reasons for predestining those he did, but who can claim to know the mind of God? Not I, in any case

So Jesus only died for some?

Yes...I used to hate this doctrine so much, before I realized that it must be true. Jesus did die for His people, which continually amazes me. If Jesus died for all the sins of all men, why aren't all men saved? (the typical answer "unbelief" comes in response) Well, isn't unbelief a sin? So wouldn't Jesus have died for it? So, it's forgiven, no? So, why then aren't all saved? Because Jesus didn't die for all the sins of all men.

We are then left with 2 options:
a) Jesus died for some of the sins of all men. But how then are any saved?
or
b) Jesus died for all the sins of some men. And those men are the ones that have been saved.

It seems then, that the last option is the only viable one.

Whats the point of going out and preaching? If God only picks and chooses a select (or elect) few, where does evangelism come into play?

Oye! Evangelism is VERY IMPORTANT!!! God commands it, yes? That is reason enough to evangelise. But, that is not the only reason. Before one of God's elect can respond, they must hear the gospel, must they not? Reformed believers say God issues 2 calls...one to all people--the hearing of the gospel....and the other, the effectous (that is, never failing) call to His elect, once they have heard the general call, and these people, by the Holy Spirit's regeneration, convert.

 

[Walker-Texas-Ranger]

So, salvation is only for some, and those God chooses?

So He chooses some to be sent to hell?

 

[Ann M]

1. according to Calvin (and possibly these verses), we have no free will, so God has predestined everything. So that means that my life, and everyone else's life is just being run by some big, "Puppet master" in heaven.

Personally this one just does not work for me. Anyone can compel a person to do something, but they cannot compel a person to freely choose to do it. I believe God wants us to choose to love him and obey him. God gives us choices, but only we can make the decision.

2. I did not choose God, He choose me. My friend John on the other hand, God did not choose. So God created him for the sole purpose of sending him to hell? So God chooses only some people? I thought he loves everyone, if He did, why wouldn't He just, "Choose" everyone?

God does not 'choose', He loves. He has loved us into being, and loves us everyday of our lives. He knows that some of us will fall to the wayside, and for those he mourns constantly.

3. If God preordained everything, wouldn't that make him the author of evil?

How does one know what evil is? Because it is the opposite of good. How does one know what good is? Because it is the opposite of evil. So essentially if evil does not exist one wouls not recognise good. One story I have heard tells how God gathered the angels around and asked for one of them to make a sacrifice. Lucifer volunteered, and God set him the task of 'falling from grace' and putting himself away from God forever, through evil. Imagine the depth of Lucifer's love for God, that he would sacrifice everything, including God, because God asked him. Imagine how Jesus felt when He was hanging on the cross and the world went dark as God abandoned him, imagine how much it hurt God to abandon his own Son, because He knew that was the sacrifice that had to be made. People still do this today in the name of love.

 

[YahwehLove]

So, salvation is only for some, and those God chooses?

So He chooses some to be sent to hell?

Because whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
(Rom 8:29-30)

foreknew

G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

predestined

G4309
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

basically

Because whom He to know beforehand, He also to limit in advance to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Seems rather redundant if foreknow and predestined mean the same thing there, Id think.

He foreknew Jacob and Esau just as He did pharoah.
But WE do not foreknow.
So we trust His judgement on the matter.

 

[johnd]

Walker, Calvinism (hyper-calvinism) and doctrines like it makes conclusions based on partial data. When one considers the entirety of scripture they realize God interacts with his creation and is in fact the objective orchetrater of all things (many of which are subjectively based on the limited free will of people and angels in his created order). This is according to his ordination by the way.

This is not Armenianism (no matter how much those who hold to one or the other doctrine insist there is either / or ). Armenianism is also based on incomplete biblical data.

God ordained than men and angels have limited free will. While that can be exaggerated by Calvinists to be heretical, the fact is God created it, set it into motion, and interacts with it.

Right to the point:

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

According to Calvinism this is impossible and should read "because God made you love me and believe that I am come from God..."

Wrong.

And as to the limitations of free will we must take into consideration the limited space in this universe which we occupy. The fact that there are to date 7 billion people ith free will vying for the exercise of their will at the same time in this limited realm in the universe, that there are factors of nature, access to wealth, health issues, laws of God and of man in motion...

get the picture?

Good.

Do not give credence to those who would pick apart a flaw in human communication and understanding and elevate it to biblical doctrines... that or suppositional scenarios... read the entire Bible and strive to absorb into your being God's version / his side of the story.

Regards,

 

[PastorSherm]

That would be Calvin's interp. of it...show John Wesley,Martin Luther,George Fox, and other reformers the same scripture, I'm willing to "bet" they'd have a diferent outlook.

 

[YahwehLove]

That would be Calvin's interp. of it...show John Wesley,Martin Luther,George Fox, and other reformers the same scripture, I'm willing to "bet" they'd have a diferent outlook.

no doubt.

I have been amazed at the mulititude of opinions from the different men over the centuries on different topics.

Just pick a passage that has some sort of doctrinal stance in it, then look to see what each mans position was.

Im nealy at a point of just ingoring my commentaries altogether after seeing how Wesley and Gill took polar opposites on one passage in Acts concerning the Holy Spirit.

 

[YahwehLove]

Walker, Calvinism (hyper-calvinism) and doctrines like it makes conclusions based on partial data....... Armenianism is also based on incomplete biblical data.

God ordained than men and angels have limited free will. While that can be exaggerated by Calvinists to be heretical, the fact is God created it, set it into motion, and interacts with it.

Do not give credence to those who would pick apart a flaw in human communication and understanding and elevate it to biblical doctrines... that or suppositional scenarios... read the entire Bible and strive to absorb into your being God's version / his side of the story.

Regards,

Agreed and AMEN

 

[Evee]

Many of the members has INDY by their user name.
Why and what is the meaning?

 

[Ann M]

Maybe their political viewpoint?

 

[YahwehLove]

Many of the members has INDY by their user name.
Why and what is the meaning?

must have been that I didnt pick republican or democrat.
After seeing Bush in action, Ive renounced my republican position until they find a decent one to run for office again

 

[Evee]

must have been that I didnt pick republican or democrat.
After seeing Bush in action, Ive renounced my republican position until they find a decent one to run for office again [/QUOTE

AH ok thanks.

 

[Walker-Texas-Ranger]

Hey thanks guys, you have helped me understand a little better. I still can not get over the fact that according to Calvinistic views, God sends people to hell by His good and, "Loving" will.
In my humble opinion, I believe that having a choice is the only way for, "True Love" to reign. For instance, when you ask a women to be your wife, would it be more loving on her part if you made her say yes, or if she choose to say yes? Thats up for you to decide, but I think the answer is clear
All I know is that I'm not a Calvinist, and I'm not an Armenian either, I'm a Bible believing, Jesus loving Christian. I think God loves everyone, and fervently desires for ALL to come to Him.
Later.

 

[onajourney87]

Right to the point:

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

According to Calvinism this is impossible and should read "because God made you love me and believe that I am come from God..."

Wrong.

Depends on the Calvinist really.

Most would point out that the love that the Father has here is phileo(essentially a Fatherly love--an affectionate love), not agape(a more "generic", "universal" love--the kind the Father has for all people, and the kind we are to have for one another). So they'd say that at the point of belief, God then has an affectionate love for them.

Hey thanks guys, you have helped me understand a little better. I still can not get over the fact that according to Calvinistic views, God sends people to hell by His good and, "Loving" will.
In my humble opinion, I believe that having a choice is the only way for, "True Love" to reign. For instance, when you ask a women to be your wife, would it be more loving on her part if you made her say yes, or if she choose to say yes? Thats up for you to decide, but I think the answer is clear

A Calvinist who claims there is no choice is nothing short of a hyper-Calvinist.

There is indeed a choice, and that is seen throughout Scripture.

The question is, what's the main issue? Is it that somehow, people get to Heaven? Or is the issue that some people end up in Hell?

To me, the astonishing thing is that anyone gets into Heaven. The Bible is so clear(and I'd be happy to provide Scripture references if you would like them; right now I'm short on time though) that we are so evil that we will always refuse Christ, and pick Hell and our silly sins over Him. When someone becomes a Christian, it's not that they have better intellectual understanding, and therefore pick the right choice, nor is it that they are stronger and can put asside the desires of sin. When someone becomes a Christian, it is because something scandelous has occured; their sin has been paid for in full by Christ Jesus on the cross, and His grace has been imputed to them.

We all have a choice. Without all our sins being forgiven, and then grace being imputed though, we will always--freely--choose sin and Hell over Christ and life. But if we have the grace of Christ imputed to us, we will always--freely--choose Christ. The lack of grace or the imputation of grace forces nothing.

All I know is that I'm not a Calvinist, and I'm not an Armenian either, I'm a Bible believing, Jesus loving Christian.

Good. Always better to believe the Bible and love Jesus and others over sticking to a system of certain beliefs as if they are all that matters, and it's not Jesus who matters. But just because someone calls themself a Calvinist doesn't neccesarily mean that they are any different exactly than you; it may be that they have decided that the term "Calvinist" best describes a small portion of their beliefs which are founded upon Jesus and The Word of God.

I think God loves everyone, and fervently desires for ALL to come to Him.

No need to just think it; believe it. That's what God tells us explicitly in His Word.

osm

 

[johnd]

I still can not get over the fact that according to Calvinistic views, God sends people to hell by His good and, "Loving" will."

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent NOT his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

According to the Bible, God's will is that all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4 and 1 Timothy 4:9). But it is man's choice to be saved from a foregone damnation.

God doesn't send anyone to hell. Sin does. And refusing to believe in Jesus Christ or ignorance of his saving grace keeps people on the predestined course for hell. God manages the impossible (Matthew 19:26) to offer salvation to man at all.

It is a matter of perspective.

We should not marvel that people end up in hell, but given our universal sin nature, we should marvel that everyone of us does NOT end up there.