When Jesus came and was then crucified (and later risen) he became our atonement for humanity's sins--to accept Jesus was to be accepted by God and accepted to heaven. The only way to the father is through me, Jesus said. So, I ask, what happened to all the people who lived thousands of miles away from the holy land in those ancient times before christianity had time to propagate itself? To those who lived in South America, Asia, Australia, and Africa for instance...surely then they were condemned to hell? For purely geographical reasons they were denied the oppurtunity to salvation. Why would God allow this? The bible (infallible, as Christians say) says salvation is possible only through Jesus...Why would God condemn these people then? I cannot explain this, can you (Christians)?
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well that's just it, do we necessarily need another human being to tell us about God? the bible says the truth is written in our hearts and in our conscience. Paul is an example of how God reveals himself to people in his own way. I can't remember which verse, but it also says we can see through creation that there is a creator and we are without excuse.. God is beyond our understanding and He has his own way of reachiing people (I know from personal experience)
There is a great book called "eternity in their hearts" by Don Richardson he is a Christian missionary and the book tells of many times far away tribes who had never even heard of the bible had revealed knowledge of God. One leader of the tribe even sent someone down to a nearby village expecting this man, there have been many accounts of missionaries witnessing the Holy Spirit at work in many tribes that have not heard of it (consciously) how can someone who has severe brain damage understand Jesus? well that's just it, God is spirit and that is how we communicate with God, on a spiritual level, sometimes the mind is not always involved 100%
There is a great book called "eternity in their hearts" by Don Richardson he is a Christian missionary and the book tells of many times far away tribes who had never even heard of the bible had revealed knowledge of God. One leader of the tribe even sent someone down to a nearby village expecting this man, there have been many accounts of missionaries witnessing the Holy Spirit at work in many tribes that have not heard of it (consciously) how can someone who has severe brain damage understand Jesus? well that's just it, God is spirit and that is how we communicate with God, on a spiritual level, sometimes the mind is not always involved 100%
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Romans 1:18-25
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
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chilehed
Veteran
Funny, we were discussing this in another thread.
Certainly, none come to the Father except through Jesus, all are saved through Christ's work on the cross. And as said above, God gives everyone enough information to know of His existance.
We also know that God wills that all will come to salvation, which means that He gives everyone an opportunity to make that choice. Given that may people are in the situation you described, we can surmise that God (being perfectly just) doesn't hold us culpable for that which we can't know. He knows our hearts and will judge us based on how faithful we were in following what we DID know of Him.
And it's within His purview to decide that someone who never heard of Jesus was nonetheless a good and faithful servant with the amount of grace he was given.
But the normative way is to be baptised into the church and avail yourself of the sacraments. If you have a good reason to believe that Jesus IS the Messiah and yet refuse to enter the Church, you're, in fact, rejecting Him.
This is my understanding of the teaching of the Catholic Church. Hope it helps.
www.catholic.com
Certainly, none come to the Father except through Jesus, all are saved through Christ's work on the cross. And as said above, God gives everyone enough information to know of His existance.
We also know that God wills that all will come to salvation, which means that He gives everyone an opportunity to make that choice. Given that may people are in the situation you described, we can surmise that God (being perfectly just) doesn't hold us culpable for that which we can't know. He knows our hearts and will judge us based on how faithful we were in following what we DID know of Him.
And it's within His purview to decide that someone who never heard of Jesus was nonetheless a good and faithful servant with the amount of grace he was given.
But the normative way is to be baptised into the church and avail yourself of the sacraments. If you have a good reason to believe that Jesus IS the Messiah and yet refuse to enter the Church, you're, in fact, rejecting Him.
This is my understanding of the teaching of the Catholic Church. Hope it helps.
www.catholic.com
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Philip
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DLraing said:
You're logic is flawed here. The failure of the Bible to address a certain point does not affect its inerrancy. You might, however, be able to argue that the Bible is not sufficient.
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thanksjesus, does that verse pertain to my question at all or are you just condemning me? Im asking questions here, not rallying against christianity. And Phillip, I think the bible's failure to address the topic of salvation of billions of people who could have never heard the word of christ does say something of its innerancy (or lack thereof). If God, or rather Jesus(yes,yes, I know they are one and the same), manifested to those far from Israel why have these people left no records of Jesus? If Jesus made himself apparent to the Incans or Mayans or Aborigines why have they left no records of such a glorious event?
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Rafael
Only time enough for love
God isn't bound by the limitations of man and the curse of time and death. There is no life He is not aware of nor is He not able to be just to all lives that return to Himself. To imagine so is to judge by ignorance, because no man has the power to give life or raise up from the dead. Instead of imagining that God will deal unjustly with man, why not accept His own words in scripture which speak of His everlasting mercy, forgiveness, compassion and longsuffering...??? Only in our imaginations does God ever do injustice or become limited in His ability to handle the creation of His own hands.DLraing said:
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Salsa_1960
Senior Member
Many unchurched cultures still have the concept of "a god/God." In the book of Acts (Acts 17:16-34), Paul spoke to a group in Athens about their "unknown" god. A god that they honored (just to be on the safe side). Paul went on to tell the the Athenians that he knew of this God and wanted to tell them more about Him.
We're told many times in the Bible that God is a just/fair God. (I wish more details were given, but then, I'm sure we'd argue about those too-- look at all the details in the Old Testament and how the Pharasees argued over the law/s). I choose to believe that God will be just with those who have not yet had a chance to learn about Him.
Perhaps you could make this analogy. (And I realize that I'm stepping out on a limb with this one, BTW): I have a daughter who is autistic and mentally retarded. There's no way that she can believe in God (not as we understand the word "believe," anyway), because she has the mental capability of a 1 or 2 year old. A just God would not condemn her because of this saying that "she never believed so she can't be saved." Perhaps it will be much the same (on judgement day) for people who've never had the opportunity to hear about God. Again, I know that I'm stepping out on a limb here, and I'm sure God has a plan-- but there's no way I can 2nd guess God's plans so I can only tell you my feelings on the matter.
NOTE: I've heard about people taking this argument so far that they say it's best, then, to not preach the word of God at all. This way all will be saved. I see 2 problems here. One is that, if Christianity was never taught, then eventually no-one would know about God. That would be sad. Secondly, with Christianity comes more than salvation. With Christianity can come peace and contentment, a relationship with the Lord through prayer and songs--I love to sing praise songs. In addition, I would say that society has profited from Christianity (moral/ethical values). I believe that I look at life deeply because of my Christian upbringing. I don't think I would have such a strong conscience if I didn't have that upbringing/if I didn't believe in God. Ask yourself why you come to this particular forum. What is it that draws you here? What does it fulfull in your life? Those are some reasons to share Christ with others. (It doesn't have to be "proselytizing").
I do think that Romans 1:18-25 is a good passage. I see it positively, though. (Atleast in this instance, because it does have some pretty harsh words to say too). The positive part I see is that, people are able to "hear the word of God" instinctively-- it's innate. It's within us-- even if it's never told to us.
In my opinion, we will all be judged accordingly.
~Sandy
We're told many times in the Bible that God is a just/fair God. (I wish more details were given, but then, I'm sure we'd argue about those too-- look at all the details in the Old Testament and how the Pharasees argued over the law/s). I choose to believe that God will be just with those who have not yet had a chance to learn about Him.
Perhaps you could make this analogy. (And I realize that I'm stepping out on a limb with this one, BTW): I have a daughter who is autistic and mentally retarded. There's no way that she can believe in God (not as we understand the word "believe," anyway), because she has the mental capability of a 1 or 2 year old. A just God would not condemn her because of this saying that "she never believed so she can't be saved." Perhaps it will be much the same (on judgement day) for people who've never had the opportunity to hear about God. Again, I know that I'm stepping out on a limb here, and I'm sure God has a plan-- but there's no way I can 2nd guess God's plans so I can only tell you my feelings on the matter.
NOTE: I've heard about people taking this argument so far that they say it's best, then, to not preach the word of God at all. This way all will be saved. I see 2 problems here. One is that, if Christianity was never taught, then eventually no-one would know about God. That would be sad. Secondly, with Christianity comes more than salvation. With Christianity can come peace and contentment, a relationship with the Lord through prayer and songs--I love to sing praise songs. In addition, I would say that society has profited from Christianity (moral/ethical values). I believe that I look at life deeply because of my Christian upbringing. I don't think I would have such a strong conscience if I didn't have that upbringing/if I didn't believe in God. Ask yourself why you come to this particular forum. What is it that draws you here? What does it fulfull in your life? Those are some reasons to share Christ with others. (It doesn't have to be "proselytizing").
I do think that Romans 1:18-25 is a good passage. I see it positively, though. (Atleast in this instance, because it does have some pretty harsh words to say too). The positive part I see is that, people are able to "hear the word of God" instinctively-- it's innate. It's within us-- even if it's never told to us.
In my opinion, we will all be judged accordingly.
~Sandy
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Holyjoe
Repairer of Broken Walls
here we go...romans 15 says
Those who have never been told about him will see, and those who have never heard of him will understand
so - the bible says that those who have not heard will hear...so to me, that means that God will give them a chance, and they will hear the Gospel somehow, and they will understand - cool eh? God gives us all a chance, whoever we are, wherever we are
God Bless
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Blissman
God is Truth- A. Einstein
Old or New Testament?
In the New Testament, Jesus was very forgiving of people whom had sinned, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do".
In the Old Testament, When Cain had killed his brother Able and The Lord had said to Cain that he would be punished for (murder), Cain had pleaded to The Lord, Why would you punish me for killing (my brother) when you had never told me that it was wrong to kill. God had spared Cain's life.
In the New Testament, Jesus was very forgiving of people whom had sinned, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do".
In the Old Testament, When Cain had killed his brother Able and The Lord had said to Cain that he would be punished for (murder), Cain had pleaded to The Lord, Why would you punish me for killing (my brother) when you had never told me that it was wrong to kill. God had spared Cain's life.
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Sandy, great post! it's true "with God all things are possible" your explanation about the 'unknown God' in acts is also in that book "eternity in their hearts" i mentioned.
God is so beyond our understanding, thank God for faith because our little minds can't handle it
God is so beyond our understanding, thank God for faith because our little minds can't handle it
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Rafael
Only time enough for love
Great verse! Heres the cross reference:Holyjoe said:here we go...romans 15 says
Those who have never been told about him will see, and those who have never heard of him will understand
so - the bible says that those who have not heard will hear...so to me, that means that God will give them a chance, and they will hear the Gospel somehow, and they will understand - cool eh? God gives us all a chance, whoever we are, wherever we are
God Bless
Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Isaiah 65:1 ¶ I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
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