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Big Bang, evolution etc.

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humblepie99

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dctalkexp said:
And if you accept this, that all life devoloped through mutations shaped by natural selection, then you accept that God created every living thing through death, suffering, and disease, and then at the end called it all "Very good!" I'm sorry, but that doesn't seem logical to me, nor does it seem very good.
I'm afraid I can't agree with that particular view on things. Firstly, we don't know the fine details of evolution for sure - provided it does exist, i'm not outright saying it does, but I'm trying to make a case for it even so - and furthermore why would that be ilogical? Death, suffering and disease is part of humanity, it's part of life and that's that.

My real view of God can be summed up fairly well in this. God is not a puppet master constantly controlling props. I see it more like he built a massive, intricate machine called the universe with millions upon millions of working parts that keep it ticking. Everything that happens from the moment of the machine's creation (possible the BB) to it's destruction was set to happen at the beginning.
Now, God hasn't just sat back and watch it tick away for a couple billion years, he's watched over and cared for his creation with the most devine love and devotion. This is a good way of looking at the phrase 'God has a plan for .... '.

Anyway, evolution is a controversial subject and I'm very pleased to see so much discussion EVOLVE from the first post. ;-)
I have seena lot of evidence in favour of it, so I continue to believe it until I find a total reason not to.
 
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Jaci Fan

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dctalkexp said:
Rejecting evolutionary theory is not rejecting science. It is rejecting false assumptions that are contrary to the word of God.

There are many problems when you try to reconcile the evolutionary theory (bad science) with God's word.
Evolutionary theory states that ALL life, including all the lush gardens and forests, all the sea creatures, every mammal, human being etc, etc is derived from a microscipic cell in the ocean billions of years ago. It says that rain forests and human beings have a common ancestor (though very distant).
Evo. theory states that through mistakes in the DNA of that microscopic cell (mutations), every living creature has developed over billions of years. In order for this to be so, there must have been countless deaths, mistakes, deformaties, diseases etc. involved in the creation and forming of all life. That's the nature of mutations, they are inherently a destructive force that produce anomalies, not a creative force for good!
And if you accept this, that all life devoloped through mutations shaped by natural selection, then you accept that God created every living thing through death, suffering, and disease, and then at the end called it all "Very good!" I'm sorry, but that doesn't seem logical to me, nor does it seem very good.

This is absolutely true dctalkexp

PPl can disagree thats fine and we as human beings have that right, we can even agree to disagree but anyone who disagrees with your above post is being illogical and not taking God serious... because sin, suffering and death came after sin! The bible makes this clear!!

Death the Bible says is a consequence of sin, ADAM AND EVES!
 
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dctalkexp

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humblepie99 said:
I'm afraid I can't agree with that particular view on things. Firstly, we don't know the fine details of evolution for sure - provided it does exist, i'm not outright saying it does, but I'm trying to make a case for it even so - and furthermore why would that be ilogical? Death, suffering and disease is part of humanity, it's part of life and that's that.

That's fine that you don't agree. But you are incorrect to imply that death, disease and suffering aren't necessarily a part of evolutionary theory. There is no avoiding it, and that's that. It IS the mechanism that evolutionary theory proposes for its alleged process.

Regarding your point about death, suffering and disease being a natural part of humanity, well that's correct, but it was not always so. If you would read God's word and take it seriously you would realize this. Death is an enemy that will be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26). Death is indeed a consequence of human sin. Our sin and rebellion against God has caused the world to be in chaos. The earth is a big, infested ball of sin, and that is why we have death, disease and suffering, not because God used it to create all life!

Adam and Eve were created sinless. There was no death, no deformaties, no mutations, no suffering, no disease. These things are not very good!

Please, I ask that you take God's word for what it says, and quit trying to stuff man's errors into it.

humblepie99 said:
My real view of God can be summed up fairly well in this. God is not a puppet master constantly controlling props. I see it more like he built a massive, intricate machine called the universe with millions upon millions of working parts that keep it ticking. Everything that happens from the moment of the machine's creation (possible the BB) to it's destruction was set to happen at the beginning.
Now, God hasn't just sat back and watch it tick away for a couple billion years, he's watched over and cared for his creation with the most devine love and devotion. This is a good way of looking at the phrase 'God has a plan for .... '.

You are correct to say that God has and is sustaining Creation. Without His sustainment, there would be absolutely nothing good at all. Also, if your implication of God creating through evolution is correct, then what effect did the curse have on Creation? And if your theory be correct, then what does Romans 8:22 mean when it says, "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." What exactly about the creation is "travailing" in pain? And why is Paul using it negatively? He should be talking positively about it if your scenario be correct, since God was the author of death, disease, and pain, and then called it good! Please look at the illogical nature of your arguments.

humblepie99 said:
Anyway, evolution is a controversial subject and I'm very pleased to see so much discussion EVOLVE from the first post. ;-) I have seena lot of evidence in favour of it, so I continue to believe it until I find a total reason not to.

That's sad that you believe fallible man's interpretations of the history of the world over God's clear Word. Why do you give them authority over God? Either God is correct, or evolutionists are. I choose to believe God, and the interpretation of the evidence which fits with Creation science.

God bless you.

Robert
 
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Duggie

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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Duggie - you need to be more careful with statements like "You can't on the one hand say you believe in the God of the Bible then on the other hand suggest we evolved from apes ", since I claim to do just that. It sounds very much like "You can't be a proper Christian and suggest we evolved from apes". Just be careful.




As regards the UK element, since you have a union flag under your name I assumed you're from the UK, so you'd know that most Christians here do not take a literalist line on this, and would be equally surprised to hear they can't "believe in the God of the Bible".
It may surprise you to know that I don't view the entire Word of God literally. When it comes to creation, specifically man, I take the Word of God as my final authority. Now if you want to debate scripture with me then I'm more than willing to discuss this. The body of Christ, although one body, has many different denominations and views. I would never suggest, I repeat never, that those with differing views to mine are not "proper christians". If its come across as though thats what I'm saying I can only apologize.
 
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humblepie99

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dctalkexp said:
That's sad that you believe fallible man's interpretations of the history of the world over God's clear Word. Why do you give them authority over God? Either God is correct, or evolutionists are. I choose to believe God, and the interpretation of the evidence which fits with Creation science.
Well you see, the thing is that I do believe God's word - what i'm saying is evolution doesn't disagree with it. It fits in with it - I give God all authority, unlike most evlution theorists I'm saying it was God who did it! I'm in no way suggesting God wasn't a part of creation.

And in reference to an above comment you made, I never said death, disease and suffering weren't part of evolution, they were - by saying 'we don't know the fine details' I was just stating that fact - we don't.
 
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onajourney87

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humblepie99 said:
Well you see, the thing is that I do believe God's word - what i'm saying is evolution doesn't disagree with it. It fits in with it

Okay. Then mind explaining how death was in the world before Adam and Eve sinned? On top of that, mind explaining how God called that death "good"? And, last but not least, please explain "and the evening and the morning were the __ day" found in Genesis. That seems to be a very literal day to me. Certianly there is more than one evening and morning every million years?

osm
 
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Jaci Fan

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osmaker said:
Okay. Then mind explaining how death was in the world before Adam and Eve sinned? On top of that, mind explaining how God called that death "good"? And, last but not least, please explain "and the evening and the morning were the __ day" found in Genesis. That seems to be a very literal day to me. Certianly there is more than one evening and morning every million years?

osm

Amen I also believe Gods word over Man thought up theories

I mean we have the details about Creation Its in genesis.
Death disease and suffering came after Man's sin.. God when he created everything had said: Behold and it was Good!

So if you believe in millions of years, you Don't believe In God's word correctly. And if you think you do, why don't you belive it, or take him at his word.

God tells us exactly How he created the world.

Genesis 1


The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning-the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning-the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning-the sixth day.

Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. niv
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now reading the above scriptures it explains how God created the world
No where does it talk about God using a BIG BANG to help form his creation. And neither does it talk about how God took millions years of time to create each day.

It would take us a thousand years to be able to even rest from work on the sabbath if ppl thought for God one day was a thousand years.

Can you imagine, I mean if it took God millions of time to create each day, that would mean you and I are not able to rest from a long hard days at work until thousands of years. And thats just silly

God says How he created the days read above top scriptures
We can either believe God and his word, or we can believe the evolutionist who are Badly mistaken. Christians should not believe or agree with the terrible notion that God used the Big Bang to create the world.

1. Its Not biblical and 2. its very dangerous to teach this as biblical truth to others when its No where found in the bible, its all Made UP!
 
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Sinai

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humblepie99 said:
Hi everyone, i'm not 100% sure this is the right forum for this topic - but it's my first post so go easy on me, k? Heh ;-)
This topic would probably be better for one of the forums CF has established just for science, creation and evolution. There is one that is open to both Christians and nonchristians, and one that is restricted to just Christians.

Well, something I think a fair bit about is science and how it links up with religion. Personally, I see no problem with the Big Bang theory. I'm not saying it has to be true, but if it is, it'd fit in with Genesis if one was not to take a literal view of events described in the Bible in those first chapters.
I also see no conflict between the Bible's account of creation in the first chapter of Genesis and the big bang theory. In fact, a close reading of the original Hebrew fits remarkably well with the BBT's Standard Model. Those who seem to think Genesis was originally written in English will tend to have a few more problems with it, though.....
 
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Isn't the whole purpose of evolution, the coming out of a species, one better suited for the environment. Humans and apes exist on the same plane. This defeats the purpose of evolution. Besides, this is an illogical assumption that since humans and apes have alot in common, humans came from apes. Energic expression has nothing to do with evolution. God used the various tools of the, "Earth" created, for all things that would inhabit it. Think about this; you wouldn't use tree bark to repair a machine. Or even tree bark to create one. Einstein entertained the notion that humans are energy at different vibrations. Apes and humans alike are energy vibrating at different levels. And, the whole of everything on the planet. This is what could be considered the connection between everything not evolution. Apes and humans stem from a very different concept of energy, whose idea is separate and different from the other. Humans have similiarities with the grass, in that, each physical body and blades of grass transforms intake to useful energy. Thus, food into it. We don't find evolutionary consideration of grass to humans even in their respective similarities. We should not with apes to humans. I have always found this idea of evolution very amusing by its very assumptions.
Sera'naphsus
 
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Rafael

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I subscribe to Scientific America just to keep up with what man is discovering about God - the things many Christians already know. I thoroughly enjoy imagining how God works at the speed of light - the speed of conscience and thought, and how men struggle explaining even the most basic mechanics of life. Yet, so many times, when you hear an unbeliever speak you would think all is understood about life, time, and the dimensions just now being imagined, much less explained.
 
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BenDare

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humblepie99 said:
One thing I would say about the Bible not saying anything about 'the big bang' is that the Bible isn't meant to be a science text book in the first place. It doesn't need to explain creation in scientific terms, how could it? My point is that the Bible isn't about explaining science, that science doesn't have to disagree with religion.

A scientist who quickly discounts religion because he does't see an immediate connection is just as bad as a theologian who discounts science for similar reasons.

Both of the two people above can live in harmony just fine!

Now I never said apes where equal to human beings, did I? Maybe they don't have 'souls', but like I said they're still God's creation. And maybe in the process of evolution whatever human beings evolved from acquired a soul - that might be it. Who knows.

In truth it isn't that important. What I'm saying is from what I've seen evolution seems possible, but that doesn't mean it is an argument against God.
 
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