Biden admin unveils string of eco regulations in latest appliance crackdown targeting fridges, freezers

[probinson]

Breaking even is not a financial hardship.

Did you miss where the more efficient furnace was $1,800 more than its slightly less efficient counterpart and that the break even point for me would have been about FIFTEEN YEARS?

My furnace is in an open utility room with fairly easy access to the outside. Had I chosen to get the more efficient model, the costs to vent outside would have been minimal.

However, consider someone who has a furnace in their attic crawlspace. To install the newer efficient models they must be vented to the outside. Now you not only have to replace the furnace, but you also have to pay for the labor to have the newer venting installed, which in some cases may be THOUSANDS of dollars on top of the more expensive unit.

Yes, that would be a financial hardship for many. And the efficiency gains are negligible for most people.

 

[probinson]

Banning incandescent bulbs accelerated the buying of LED bulbs.

Anyone here old enough to remember the disaster of CFL bulbs?

Improving the technology behind LED bulbs is what accelerated their sales. Not to mention the fact that LED bulbs use roughly 1/10 of the energy of their equivalent LED counterpart which equates to tangible everyday savings for people. IOW, the market drove the uptake of LED bulbs, which would have happened irrespective of government mandates.

 

[probinson]

But I still can't get over that $20k...

Not sure why.

It costs over $30,000 to install solar panels. That's a big number, but it can come down significantly with generous incentives from the federal government, as well as from many states.​

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The average household in the U.S. needs a 10.5-kilowatt (kW) solar panel system to cover its electricity usage. Based on thousands of quotes in the EnergySage Marketplace, you'll pay about $22,027 to install a 10.5 kW system in 2023 after federal tax credits. If you finance your system with a loan, this number will be higher due to interest rates. Either way, the economics of going solar in almost all cases result in electric bill savings that will pay for your system over time, sometimes a few times over.​

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Solar Panel Cost In 2024: It May Be Lower Than You Think

It costs over $20,000 to install solar panels. That's a big number, but it can come down significantly with generous incentives from the federal government, as well as from many states.

www.energysage.com

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and...

One thing we do know is that going solar, no matter where you are, is very expensive. ​

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The average 8-kilowatt residential solar panel system cost about $3 per watt in 2022, according to data from the energy consulting firm Wood Mackenzie. That's a drop of 29 cents per watt from the year before, but it still means the average system costs about$24,000 before tax credits and other incentives. And your home may not be "average."​

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How Much Do Solar Panels Cost?

Solar panels can cost you tens of thousands of dollars depending on your system's size, local labor costs and available incentives. Here's what you need to know.

www.cnet.com

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$3K is RIDICULOUSLY low, so kudos to you if you were able to install for that cheap. However, for the vast majority of people, solar is cost-prohibitive and comes with a 10+ year ROI.

 

[Laodicean60]

One thing we do know is that going solar, no matter where you are, is very expensive.

I second that even in 2016.

 

[probinson]

You did the right thing. Of course you need to do your return on investment figures.

On this we agree. But if the government sticks their nose in where it doesn't belong, people won't have that option. They will be forced to buy the more expensive units with the 15+ year ROI and it will pose an immense financial hardship to them.

Oh sure, prices will likely come down over time. But that doesn't help someone who needs a furnace NOW. They will be stuck paying the higher price.

 

[iluvatar5150]

You did the right thing. Of course you need to do your return on investment figures.

But $20k for panels? Good grief. Mine cost just over US$3k for the complete installation. And my payback is about 3 years. I didn't get a battery because the ROI blows out to over ten years.

We had to get a new car anyway and the hybrid we bought was about the size of car we were looking for. It was close to the same price as normal petrol engine cars in the range we looked at. Just did some quick calcs and using 1/3 the fuel for the mileage we do, we save about $US2,000 a year. So we've easily covered any extra we paid.

And if all the furnace manufacturers are just producing high efficiency units, then the price will drop. Just like solar panels are now cheaper. Just like the price of electric and hybrid cars are dropping. The market will help determine the price.

But I still can't get over that $20k...

Do you have some sort of deal where you pay back most of the cost of the panels over time? Because $3k wouldn't even cover the installation labor. I wouldn't be surprised if it was $1000+ just to get the electrician to run the wire and tie into the panel. $15-20k is low average for the numbers I've seen.

Did you miss where the more efficient furnace was $1,800 more than its slightly less efficient counterpart and that the break even point for me would have been about FIFTEEN YEARS?

$1800 on top of what baseline price? What models are we talking about? At that price, you’re obviously not getting a MrCool at Home Depot.

My furnace is in an open utility room with fairly easy access to the outside. Had I chosen to get the more efficient model, the costs to vent outside would have been minimal.

However, consider someone who has a furnace in their attic crawlspace. To install the newer efficient models they must be vented to the outside. Now you not only have to replace the furnace, but you also have to pay for the labor to have the newer venting installed, which in some cases may be THOUSANDS of dollars on top of the more expensive unit.

It’s not Biden’s fault the builders did something stupid like that. Replacing any unit in a crawlspace is going to be an expensive pain in the butt. (there’s just such a time bomb above my head right now)

Yes, that would be a financial hardship for many. And the efficiency gains are negligible for most people.

As has been pointed out, the faster the manufacturers are forced into these standards, the faster they’ll figure out how to a ide by them cheaply.

 

[Laodicean60]

Since everyone is talking money. In 2016 I paid 25K total for solar and I can't remember the wattage for a 2200 sq ft house with a family of 6.

 

[probinson]

$1800 on top of what baseline price? What models are we talking about? At that price, you’re obviously not getting a MrCool at Home Depot.

In my case, the 80% efficient 70,000 BTU two-stage variable speed furnace I purchased was about $3,400. It would have been $1,800 more than that for the 96% efficient unit.

On another note, it's quite likely that the 80 AFUE two-stage variable speed furnace I purchased is more efficient than if I'd bought a 96 AFUE single stage, single speed furnace. The two-stage furnace only uses 60% of its capacity to heat almost always. It only kicks into the second stage if it takes longer than 20 minutes to bring the house to the desired temperature. But again, the Biden administration would like to ban the furnace I just purchased just because it says "80 AFUE" on it. It doesn't really matter to them that my choice of a more premium two-stage, variable speed furnace is almost certainly more efficient than had I chosen the "more efficient" 96 AFUE single stage and single speed furnace. Nuance isn't exactly something the government is known for.

It’s not Biden’s fault the builders did something stupid like that. Replacing any unit in a crawlspace is going to be an expensive pain in the butt. (there’s just such a time bomb above my head right now)

Yes, but replacing an 80% efficient unit with another 80% efficient unit is IMMENSELY simpler than running all of the PVC condensate lines required for the new 96% efficient models. Even if the price of the unit was EXACTLY the same, the cost of labor to install the proper venting will almost certainly be in the thousands of dollars.

If you Google 80 vs 96 AFUE furnaces, you'll read all kinds of pros can cons. Which furnace is right for each situation varies on a myriad of factors. The government should keep their noses out of it.

As has been pointed out, the faster the manufacturers are forced into these standards, the faster they’ll figure out how to a ide by them cheaply.

Even so, the labor to install a 96 AFUE furnace will be vastly more than where an 80 AFUE furnace is installed. Additionally, you have to keep those newly installed condensate lines clean, which means an even greater maintenance cost as well.

I just don't understand why so many people support all of this unnecessary government interference.

 

[Bradskii]

Do you have some sort of deal where you pay back most of the cost of the panels over time? Because $3k wouldn't even cover the installation labor. I wouldn't be surprised if it was $1000+ just to get the electrician to run the wire and tie into the panel. $15-20k is low average for the numbers I've seen.

The government helps with a subsidy. It was about $US1400 for my system. But it's a very competative market here. And all done in a day. One guy did the framing on the roof while the other ran the cables via the inverter. That was about 4 hours. Then in the afternoon they installed the panels.

 

[iluvatar5150]

The government helps with a subsidy. It was about $US1400 for my system. But it's a very competative market here. And all done in a day. One guy did the framing on the roof while the other ran the cables via the inverter. That was about 4 hours. Then in the afternoon they installed the panels.

Those subsidies must be massive.

 

[Bradskii]

Those subsidies must be massive.

Australian Solar & Battery Rebates, Subsidies & Incentives - 2023

Incentives, subsidies and rebates for solar and batteries in Australia vary. Find what's currently available in your state or territory here.

www.solarquotes.com.au

'National solar subsidy – available across New South Wales for all system sizes, the national STC scheme can reduce the upfront cost of a 6.6kW system installed in Sydney by around $2,600 ($US1750).'