Biblical Truth: Jesus Christ IS God!!!

[O.F.F.]

Although this section of the forum was created to house the heretical opinions of "Unorthodox Theology" it is very disturbing to read how Satan has blinded so many people into believing so many falsehoods. So much so, that I feel compelled to speak the truth in the midst of all these scoffers (2 Peter 3:3), false teachers (2 Peter 2:1), and antichrists (1 John 2:18). While there are many things they say that disturb me, the one that disturbs me most is the false belief that Jesus is not God; when the Holy Bible, God's Word itself, proclaims Him to be God.

We can start with a few Old Testament declarations that Jesus is God. The prophet Isaiah proclaimed it 700 years before Christ was born into the world:

Isaiah 7:14

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

We know that “Immanuel” literally means “God with us.” And this definition is confirmed in Matthew 1:23; so we can confidently say that Jesus Christ was God with us!

Again, Isaiah declares:

Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

You have to admit, calling a human being “Mighty God” is a pretty radical statement, especially coming from a monotheistic Jewish prophet. Nevertheless it is one that God fulfilled centuries later through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Fast forward 200 hundred years later, yet still more than 500 years before Jesus walked on the earth, Daniel predicted the Messiah’s divine nature:

Daniel 7:13-14

There before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven . . . He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Given "authority" in the context of "glory and sovereign power" over all peoples and all nations certainly implies that Jesus was God. After all, only God has such authority. Additionally, “Son of Man” was the title Jesus often attributed to Himself; and in its full context this passage reveals a claim of deity with unremitting clarity. And in Mark 14:62, Jesus also included the same phrase, “coming on the clouds of heaven” and applied it to Himself.

Let' move on to the New Testament. In addition to being led to the place where Jesus was born, it is obvious that the Magi were informed by God about Jesus’ divinity, by virtue of the fact that when they saw Him they bowed down and worshiped Him.

Matthew 2:11

On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.

Worship belongs only to God, and Him alone, as Jesus declares to Satan when he tried to trick Jesus into worshipping him.

Matthew 4:8-11

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.” Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

So if the Magi worshipped Him, and Jesus said only God is to be worshipped, then in effect He was telling Satan that it should be the other way around. In other words, he (the devil) should have done as the Magi did and bow down and worship Him.

The Bible also teaches us that Jesus accepted worship from His disciples:

Matthew 14:32-33

And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.'

The disciples knew, from their Jewish culture, that only the one true living God is to be worshiped. Their actions showed that they acknowledged the Deity of Christ.

Furthermore, Jesus didn’t stop them; instead He accepted their worship, knowing He really was indeed God incarnate (John 1:14). And why would He stop them when He declared Himself to be God.

John 8:58-59

I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

They tried to kill Him, why? Because He claimed to be God! First, He declares His pre-existence prior to His human birth; meaning He was actually alive and present (as God) long before Abraham existed. Secondly, He declares His title as “I Am,” which is the same title used for Jehovah in Exodus 3:14. Furthermore, Jehovah Himself declares in His Word that Jesus is not only the Living Word, but He too is God:

John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And elsewhere God says of His Son:

Collosians 1:15-19

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him

What's more, God declares Jesus is to be worshipped and exalted to His glory:

Philippians 2:9-11

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And Jesus said of Himself:

John 10:30-33

I and the Father are one. Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.

He never denied their accusation. In fact, it couldn’t be clearer than it is shown here. The Jewish leaders understood His claim. Therefore they had two choices; they could have humbled themselves and bow before Him just like the Magi and the disciples had done earlier, or they could reject His claim and judge Him as a blasphemer. What did they do? They chose the latter option; which again, He didn't deny!

Finally, the doubting Thomas responds to the resurrected Christ:

John 20:27-29

Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’

Once he encountered the risen Savior of the world, Thomas realized who Jesus really was. He response is the same for everyone who encounters Jesus as Lord and Savior. He humbly worshiped Him and declared His true identity, which is “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus not only accepts this declaration, but blesses all of the disciples -- and all of us today -- who come to the same realization and place of humble worship (All About Jesus Christ.org).

 

[Woldeyesus]

Although this section of the forum was created to house the heretical opinions of "Unorthodox Theology" it is very disturbing to read how Satan has blinded so many people into believing so many falsehoods. So much so, that I feel compelled to speak the truth in the midst of all these scoffers (2 Peter 3:3), false teachers (2 Peter 2:1), and antichrists (1 John 2:18). While there are many things they say that disturb me, the one that disturbs me most is the false belief that Jesus is not God; when the Holy Bible, God's Word itself, proclaims Him to be God.

We can start with a few Old Testament declarations that Jesus is God. The prophet Isaiah proclaimed it 700 years before Christ was born into the world:



We know that “Immanuel” literally means “God with us.” And this definition is confirmed in Matthew 1:23; so we can confidently say that Jesus Christ was God with us!

Again, Isaiah declares:



You have to admit, calling a human being “Mighty God” is a pretty radical statement, especially coming from a monotheistic Jewish prophet. Nevertheless it is one that God fulfilled centuries later through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Fast forward 200 hundred years later, yet still more than 500 years before Jesus walked on the earth, Daniel predicted the Messiah’s divine nature:



Given "authority" in the context of "glory and sovereign power" over all peoples and all nations certainly implies that Jesus was God. After all, only God has such authority. Additionally, “Son of Man” was the title Jesus often attributed to Himself; and in its full context this passage reveals a claim of deity with unremitting clarity. And in Mark 14:62, Jesus also included the same phrase, “coming on the clouds of heaven” and applied it to Himself.

Let' move on to the New Testament. In addition to being led to the place where Jesus was born, it is obvious that the Magi were informed by God about Jesus’ divinity, by virtue of the fact that when they saw Him they bowed down and worshiped Him.



Worship belongs only to God, and Him alone, as Jesus declares to Satan when he tried to trick Jesus into worshipping him.



So if the Magi worshipped Him, and Jesus said only God is to be worshipped, then in effect He was telling Satan that it should be the other way around. In other words, he (the devil) should have done as the Magi did and bow down and worship Him.

The Bible also teaches us that Jesus accepted worship from His disciples:



The disciples knew, from their Jewish culture, that only the one true living God is to be worshiped. Their actions showed that they acknowledged the Deity of Christ.

Furthermore, Jesus didn’t stop them; instead He accepted their worship, knowing He really was indeed God incarnate (John 1:14). And why would He stop them when He declared Himself to be God.



They tried to kill Him, why? Because He claimed to be God! First, He declares His pre-existence prior to His human birth; meaning He was actually alive and present (as God) long before Abraham existed. Secondly, He declares His title as “I Am,” which is the same title used for Jehovah in Exodus 3:14. Furthermore, Jehovah Himself declares in His Word that Jesus is not only the Living Word, but He too is God:



And elsewhere God says of His Son:



What's more, God declares Jesus is to be worshipped and exalted to His glory:



And Jesus said of Himself:



He never denied their accusation. In fact, it couldn’t be clearer than it is shown here. The Jewish leaders understood His claim. Therefore they had two choices; they could have humbled themselves and bow before Him just like the Magi and the disciples had done earlier, or they could reject His claim and judge Him as a blasphemer. What did they do? They chose the latter option; which again, He didn't deny!

Finally, the doubting Thomas responds to the resurrected Christ:



Once he encountered the risen Savior of the world, Thomas realized who Jesus really was. He response is the same for everyone who encounters Jesus as Lord and Savior. He humbly worshiped Him and declared His true identity, which is “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus not only accepts this declaration, but blesses all of the disciples -- and all of us today -- who come to the same realization and place of humble worship (All About Jesus Christ.org).

What proclaims Jesus Christ as Almighty God, a.k.a., the "living God" and "God of the living" is not the Biblical claim, itself, but rather his timeless work of LIVE, perfect, ever active, Spirit-pouring and diacritical death on the cross complete with CRITICAL MASS for "People (to) look at him whom they pierced" and be born again of life-giving Spirit, i.e., in the image of God or immortality! (John 19:37) AMEN.

 

[Gareth]

Who has come to know the mind of God? But we do have the mind of Christ. These words are found at 2 Cor. 2:16. Cross reference verses include Romans 11:33-35 and from there to the Hebrew Testament. If God and Christ were one and the same, then these verses would actually read differently. But they don't, and other verses that can be found continue to indicate that God is higher than Jesus, as He has ever been. If they are both equal in every way, why does the Christ subject himself to God when in the future all things he has been charged to do will have been accomplished (1Cor. 15:20-28)? If he were equal to God, just how was he given a superior position when he returned faithful to heaven from being on earth (Phil. 2:9-11)? If he is of the same status as God in every way these verses would of read completely differently from how they are now. Finally, the Revelation given to John came via angels who were given it by Jesus who in turn was given it by God (Rev. 1:1).

So maybe, as hard as it is to take, the error lies with those who think Jesus is God. Some have spent a good number of their years in various churches only to have their questions answered by people who don't accept a duality or a trinity. The lengths that some scholars and copyists of the Bible have gone to to force this trinity doctrine on others has driven many to leave religion entirely. It takes real humility to admit that something that has been accepted by so many and for so long is a false doctrine. But then God isn't looking for the proud or the haughty. He is looking for meek, mild and humble people who are willing to be shaped into something useful by the great potter.

 

[drstevej]

It takes real humility to admit that something that has been accepted by so many and for so long is a false doctrine.

So are you ready to forsake your Arian views?

 

[Gareth]

Nope, even under pain of death. Hopefully that will never happen, but you never know. Naturally, I'm not a follower of Arius but follow in the steps of the Master, Jesus. He didn't believe he was equal to God and neither did his Apostles. People will twist scripture to suit and sometimes it may appear that they are right. But when that is contrasted in context with other Bible verses only one concept of Jesus becomes apparent. He is God's Son, not God himself.

 

[drstevej]

Before Abraham was I am.
Alpha and Omega.

Naturally, I'm not a follower of Nicea but follow in the steps of the Master, Jesus.

"Baptize them in the name (singular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." - Master Jesus

 

[Woldeyesus]

Who has come to know the mind of God? But we do have the mind of Christ. These words are found at 2 Cor. 2:16. Cross reference verses include Romans 11:33-35 and from there to the Hebrew Testament. If God and Christ were one and the same, then these verses would actually read differently. But they don't, and other verses that can be found continue to indicate that God is higher than Jesus, as He has ever been. If they are both equal in every way, why does the Christ subject himself to God when in the future all things he has been charged to do will have been accomplished (1Cor. 15:20-28)? If he were equal to God, just how was he given a superior position when he returned faithful to heaven from being on earth (Phil. 2:9-11)? If he is of the same status as God in every way these verses would of read completely differently from how they are now. Finally, the Revelation given to John came via angels who were given it by Jesus who in turn was given it by God (Rev. 1:1).

So maybe, as hard as it is to take, the error lies with those who think Jesus is God. Some have spent a good number of their years in various churches only to have their questions answered by people who don't accept a duality or a trinity. The lengths that some scholars and copyists of the Bible have gone to to force this trinity doctrine on others has driven many to leave religion entirely. It takes real humility to admit that something that has been accepted by so many and for so long is a false doctrine. But then God isn't looking for the proud or the haughty. He is looking for meek, mild and humble people who are willing to be shaped into something useful by the great potter.

There are at least three reasons why one stands to lose everything either by accepting or rejecting at face value the "truth about Jesus".

1) WORKS, but not claims (not even Scriptures), make up the absolute standard for the evidence for God. That is why Jesus said,

"Do not believe me, then, if I am not doing the things my Father wants me to do. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, you should at least believe my deeds, in order that you may know once and for all that the Father is in me and that I am in the Father." (John 10: 37-38)

2) The attitude and language of Christ, true to his nature, are altruistic or self-effacing. (John 5:31; Phil. 2: 5-11)

3) Based on the promise of the "flame coming from the middle of a bush ... on fire but ... not burning up" (Ex. 3: 1-15), if accepted and obeyed, firsthand knowledge God today is possible only through Christ's self-revelation in his verifiably perfect and diacritical death on the cross commonly characterized by the same ID, viz.: self-sufficient source of life and eternal name, "I Am Who I Am". (John 8: 21-28; 14: 6-21; 19: 30-37)

 

[Woldeyesus]

Before Abraham was I am.
Alpha and Omega.



"Baptize them in the name (singular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." - Master Jesus

I love it! Don't you also agree that making of disciples will be much more fitting if one knows firsthand the divine Christ and also has the disciple's know-how of securing His presence to baptize and teach properly like the apostles did. (Matt. 28: 18-20; 1: 1-15; Acts 2)

 

[O.F.F.]

What proclaims Jesus Christ as Almighty God, a.k.a., the "living God" and "God of the living" is not the Biblical claim, itself, but rather his timeless work of LIVE, perfect, ever active, Spirit-pouring and diacritical death on the cross complete with CRITICAL MASS for "People (to) look at him whom they pierced" and be born again of life-giving Spirit, i.e., in the image of God or immortality! (John 19:37) AMEN.

Don't forget to add the biggest miracle ever performed that proved He is God; namely, His resurrection!

 

[O.F.F.]

If God and Christ were one and the same, then these verses would actually read differently. But they don't, and other verses that can be found continue to indicate that God is higher than Jesus, as He has ever been. If they are both equal in every way, why does the Christ subject himself to God when in the future all things he has been charged to do will have been accomplished (1Cor. 15:20-28)? If he were equal to God, just how was he given a superior position when he returned faithful to heaven from being on earth (Phil. 2:9-11)? If he is of the same status as God in every way these verses would of read completely differently from how they are now. Finally, the Revelation given to John came via angels who were given it by Jesus who in turn was given it by God (Rev. 1:1).

So maybe, as hard as it is to take, the error lies with those who think Jesus is God. Some have spent a good number of their years in various churches only to have their questions answered by people who don't accept a duality or a trinity. The lengths that some scholars and copyists of the Bible have gone to to force this trinity doctrine on others has driven many to leave religion entirely. It takes real humility to admit that something that has been accepted by so many and for so long is a false doctrine. But then God isn't looking for the proud or the haughty. He is looking for meek, mild and humble people who are willing to be shaped into something useful by the great potter.

As author of this thread, I NEVER said that God and Jesus Christ were one and the same! That's a ridiculous notion. But because you are a JW, I see your real problem is, not understanding that Jesus is God, but in understanding the "Holy Trinity" (Trinity). Let me address this issue in a way I learned from James R. White; who is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona. He is the author of more than a dozen books, a professor, an accomplished debater, and an elder of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

Now I know as a JW you are not taught to believe in the Trinity, but I believe in the Trinity because the Bible teaches the doctrine. It's true, the Bible does not use the specific word "Trinity," or "Holy Trinity," but it does teach three pillars that make up the doctrine. The first pillar is that there is only one true God, Jehovah, Creator of all things (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5). Surely you agree with me there, right?

The second pillar is that there are three divine Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I know JW's don't believe the Holy Spirit is a person, but you do agree that the Father and the Son are not the same person, correct?

Finally, the third pillar, the point on which we are in direct disagreement, is that the Bible teaches the full equality of these divine persons. This would include the deity of Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit. I am not asserting that there are three persons that are one person, nor that there are three beings that are one being. I am saying that they are three distinct persons, and I am differentiating between the terms "being" and "person."

The Bible teaches that all things have being, but only God, humans, and angels are personal. I as a human being am one person, Mike Gentry. My being makes me human, my personality differentiates me from all other human beings. The same is true for you, and all other human beings. Since my being is finite and limited, only one person can properly exist in it; namely, me. But since God’s being is infinite and unlimited, it can be, and is, shared by three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Now let me illustrate this from Scripture. I trust you and I both agree that the only true God is Jehovah. I believe the term ‘Jehovah’ refers to the very divine being, the eternal God, who created all things. You would agree with me that the Father is Jehovah, would you not? Where we disagree is this: I believe the Bible says that Jesus Christ is Jehovah, and the Spirit is also Jehovah. Each of the three persons shares the one divine name, Jehovah.

Hold on, I know you're asking, "where does the Bible say this?" Using your own Witnesses’ translation, the New World Translation (NWT), turn to Hebrews 1:3, which speaks of Christ as the "exact representation of his nature." Go on and read through verse 8. Now, who is being discussed all through this passage? The citation that begins in verse 8 finishes in verse 9, following which the NWT says, "And: ‘You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands.’"

By its use of quotation marks in the text, the NWT clearly indicates that we are dealing here with a citation of the Old Testament. Continue reading through verse 12. Again, who is being described here? Like verses 3-8, the only possible answer is "the Son."

Now you may say something about how Jesus, is the first creation of Jehovah, and was the one through whom all the rest of creation was made, as long as we agree on the fact that Hebrews 1:10-12 is still making reference to the Son; agreed? If so, what passage is the writer of Hebrews quoting? The passage being cited, according to the cross references found in NWT reference editions, is Psalm 102:25-27.

Beginning at verse 1 of Psalm 102, please identify the individual being addressed in the passage. In your NWT that verse begins with, "O Jehovah, do hear my prayer." Now skip down to verse 12 and see that Jehovah remains the subject of the psalm. Notice that Jehovah continues to appear in verses 19 and 20 . This is important because once you get to verse 25 the significance of the words will be manifested. Jehovah is addressed in the very same words that the writer to the Hebrews uses of the Son, Jesus Christ!

There is no reason to think that anyone other than Jehovah is being addressed by the psalmist in Psalm 102:25-27. You have now seen the first of many passages in which the New Testament writers take an Old Testament passage originally about Jehovah Himself and apply it to the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage is exceptionally strong, for the psalmist is speaking of the immutability, eternal nature, and creative power of Jehovah God, yet the writer to the Hebrews is willing to assert all these things of Jesus Christ. It demonstrates that Jesus is God!

But we're not just talking about the deity of Christ, we are talking about the Trinity. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. (gotquestions.org) But just because it is humanly difficult to completely comprehend, doesn't mean it is biblically impossible to apprehend.

The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity. (gotquestions.org)

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity. (gotquestions.org)

The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9 as shown earlier). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father. (gotquestions.org)

Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16). (gotquestions.org)

You said, "other verses that can be found continue to indicate that God is higher than Jesus." There is subordination within the Trinity, but that doesn't make either person within it less divine. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14. (gotquestions.org)

The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things. (gotquestions.org)

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent. (gotquestions.org)

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit. (gotquestions.org)

That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity! Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34). (gotquestions.org)

 

[Simonline]

Although this section of the forum was created to house the heretical opinions of "Unorthodox Theology" it is very disturbing to read how Satan has blinded so many people into believing so many falsehoods. So much so, that I feel compelled to speak the truth in the midst of all these scoffers (2 Peter 3:3), false teachers (2 Peter 2:1), and antichrists (1 John 2:18). While there are many things they say that disturb me, the one that disturbs me most is the false belief that Jesus is not God; when the Holy Bible, God's Word itself, proclaims Him to be God.

We can start with a few Old Testament declarations that Jesus is God. The prophet Isaiah proclaimed it 700 years before Christ was born into the world:



We know that “Immanuel” literally means “God with us.” And this definition is confirmed in Matthew 1:23; so we can confidently say that Jesus Christ was God with us!

Again, Isaiah declares:



You have to admit, calling a human being “Mighty God” is a pretty radical statement, especially coming from a monotheistic Jewish prophet. Nevertheless it is one that God fulfilled centuries later through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Fast forward 200 hundred years later, yet still more than 500 years before Jesus walked on the earth, Daniel predicted the Messiah’s divine nature:



Given "authority" in the context of "glory and sovereign power" over all peoples and all nations certainly implies that Jesus was God. After all, only God has such authority. Additionally, “Son of Man” was the title Jesus often attributed to Himself; and in its full context this passage reveals a claim of deity with unremitting clarity. And in Mark 14:62, Jesus also included the same phrase, “coming on the clouds of heaven” and applied it to Himself.

Let' move on to the New Testament. In addition to being led to the place where Jesus was born, it is obvious that the Magi were informed by God about Jesus’ divinity, by virtue of the fact that when they saw Him they bowed down and worshiped Him.



Worship belongs only to God, and Him alone, as Jesus declares to Satan when he tried to trick Jesus into worshipping him.



So if the Magi worshipped Him, and Jesus said only God is to be worshipped, then in effect He was telling Satan that it should be the other way around. In other words, he (the devil) should have done as the Magi did and bow down and worship Him.

The Bible also teaches us that Jesus accepted worship from His disciples:



The disciples knew, from their Jewish culture, that only the one true living God is to be worshiped. Their actions showed that they acknowledged the Deity of Christ.

Furthermore, Jesus didn’t stop them; instead He accepted their worship, knowing He really was indeed God incarnate (John 1:14). And why would He stop them when He declared Himself to be God.



They tried to kill Him, why? Because He claimed to be God! First, He declares His pre-existence prior to His human birth; meaning He was actually alive and present (as God) long before Abraham existed. Secondly, He declares His title as “I Am,” which is the same title used for Jehovah in Exodus 3:14. Furthermore, Jehovah Himself declares in His Word that Jesus is not only the Living Word, but He too is God:



And elsewhere God says of His Son:



What's more, God declares Jesus is to be worshipped and exalted to His glory:



And Jesus said of Himself:



He never denied their accusation. In fact, it couldn’t be clearer than it is shown here. The Jewish leaders understood His claim. Therefore they had two choices; they could have humbled themselves and bow before Him just like the Magi and the disciples had done earlier, or they could reject His claim and judge Him as a blasphemer. What did they do? They chose the latter option; which again, He didn't deny!

Finally, the doubting Thomas responds to the resurrected Christ:



Once he encountered the risen Savior of the world, Thomas realized who Jesus really was. He response is the same for everyone who encounters Jesus as Lord and Savior. He humbly worshiped Him and declared His true identity, which is “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus not only accepts this declaration, but blesses all of the disciples -- and all of us today -- who come to the same realization and place of humble worship (All About Jesus Christ.org).

With respect, this is 'pop-theology' rather than authentic orthodox theology. Contrary to popular opinion, the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, is not Divine. He is however, the HUMAN incarnation of the DIVINE Creator, YHWH and as such is 100% authentic human creature (Heb.2:17).

It is the Son (the Second Person of the One, Tri-Personal, Divine Creator) Who simultaneously exists as both Divine Creator, YHWH and human creature, Jesus of Nazareth but the way that the Son exists as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth is totally different to the way that He exists as the Divine Creator, YHWH (see my signature).

As Divine the Son is Infinite, Eternal, Immutable, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent etc just like the Father and the Holy Spirit. However. as human the Son is none of those things (how many other human creatures do you know who are Infinite or Eternal or Immutable or Omnipotent or Omniscient or Omnipresent etc. (Heb.2:17)?). Therefore it is safe to say that Jesus of Nazareth is as Divine as YHWH is human?!

This is authentic orthodox theology.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Who has come to know the mind of God? But we do have the mind of Christ. These words are found at 2 Cor. 2:16. Cross reference verses include Romans 11:33-35 and from there to the Hebrew Testament. If God and Christ were one and the same, then these verses would actually read differently. But they don't, and other verses that can be found continue to indicate that God is higher than Jesus, as He has ever been. If they are both equal in every way, why does the Christ subject himself to God when in the future all things he has been charged to do will have been accomplished (1Cor. 15:20-28)? If he were equal to God, just how was he given a superior position when he returned faithful to heaven from being on earth (Phil. 2:9-11)? If he is of the same status as God in every way these verses would of read completely differently from how they are now. Finally, the Revelation given to John came via angels who were given it by Jesus who in turn was given it by God (Rev. 1:1).

The Messiah is the human incarnation of the Divine Creator (hence the name 'Emmanuel - God with us' (Matt.1:23)). Only as Divine is the Messiah equal with the Father and the Spirit (Jn.10:30-33). As human, the Messiah is inferior to the Father by His own admission (Jn.14:28).

The Son now simultaneously exists as Divine Creator [YHWH] and human creature [Jesus of Nazareth] but the way that He exists as one is totally different from the way that He exists as the other. Hence Jesus of Nazareth is no more Divine than YHWH is human but the Messiah is both Divine and human.

So maybe, as hard as it is to take, the error lies with those who think Jesus is God. Some have spent a good number of their years in various churches only to have their questions answered by people who don't accept a duality or a trinity. The lengths that some scholars and copyists of the Bible have gone to to force this trinity doctrine on others has driven many to leave religion entirely. It takes real humility to admit that something that has been accepted by so many and for so long is a false doctrine. But then God isn't looking for the proud or the haughty. He is looking for meek, mild and humble people who are willing to be shaped into something useful by the great potter.

Hmm. really?! Actually, the error lies with those who refuse to accept the Divine revelation of the Tri-Personal Nature of the Divine Creator and His incarnation as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, because their hearts and minds have been darkened by the Evil One (2Cor.4:4) not to mention all those who have shipwrecked their faith by following them in their rationalistic foolishness (1Cor.1:18-31; 2:6-16).

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Nope, even under pain of death. Hopefully that will never happen, but you never know. Naturally, I'm not a follower of Arius but follow in the steps of the Master, Jesus. He didn't believe he was equal to God and neither did his Apostles. People will twist scripture to suit and sometimes it may appear that they are right. But when that is contrasted in context with other Bible verses only one concept of Jesus becomes apparent. He is God's Son, not God himself.

This begs the question 'Have you ever actually read the Scriptures for themselves or only to look for 'proof texts' to reinforce your own (or whoever's) theological presuppositions?'

The Messiah knew exactly who He was and had no hesitation in communicating that not only to His own disciples but also to the entire nation of Israel and through them to the world (Rom.9:3-5). The entire Judeo-Christian Scriptures testify to the fact that YHWH alone is our saviour (Isa.43:10-13) and that YHWH alone has incarnated as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth - 'Emmanuel - God with us'(Matt.1:23; Tit.2:13).

Not only so but if the Messiah is NOT the human incarnation of YHWH then you have an insurmountable problem, namely that the god that you worship is a hypocritical murderer. Having declared that murder is wrong (Ex.20:13) He has then gone and murdered an innocent man (Isa.53:10(a)) for the sins of the world (1Jn.2:2)?! However, if the Messiah is indeed the human incarnation of the Divine Creator (as the Scriptures declare) then, far from murdering an innocent man, as someone other than Himself, the Divine Creator has actually sacrificed Himself for His own Creation as the supreme act of Love (Jn.15:13; Acts.20:28(B); 1Jn.4:8,16)?!


Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

There are at least three reasons why one stands to lose everything either by accepting or rejecting at face value the "truth about Jesus".

1) WORKS, but not claims (not even Scriptures), make up the absolute standard for the evidence for God. That is why Jesus said,

"Do not believe me, then, if I am not doing the things my Father wants me to do. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, you should at least believe my deeds, in order that you may know once and for all that the Father is in me and that I am in the Father." (John 10: 37-38)

This implies that the words of the Messiah were subservient to his works when in fact the exact opposite is true. The Messiah worked miracles in order to both substantiate and vindicate his claims to be the human incarnation of the Divine Creator. The Messiah did NOT do 'magic tricks' simply for their own sake. The miracles were ALWAYS subservient both to Who He was and to what He declared.

2) The attitude and language of Christ, true to his nature, are altruistic or self-effacing. (John 5:31; Phil. 2: 5-11).

Au contrare. The Messiah declared that He alone was the Way, the Truth and the Life and absolutely no-one came to the Father except through Him (Jn.14:6 (cf. Jn.3:36 and Acts.4:12). The Messiah also declared that he was the bread of Life (Jn.6:35); the Light of the World (Jn.8:12,24); The gate for the sheep (Jn.10:7,9); The Good Shepherd (Jn.10:11,14); The Resurrection and the Life (Jn.11:25); The Way, The Truth and The Life (Jn.14:6); The True Vine (Jn.15:1-2); The First and the Last (Rev.1:17; 21:6; 22:13)?! That doesn't sound very self-effacing to me?!

For the record, Christ does not exist as a single Nature (Divine, human or a Divine/human hybrid (?!)), He exists as two natures - one Divine and the other human.

3) Based on the promise of the "flame coming from the middle of a bush ... on fire but ... not burning up" (Ex. 3: 1-15), if accepted and obeyed, firsthand knowledge God today is possible only through Christ's self-revelation in his verifiably perfect and diacritical death on the cross commonly characterized by the same ID, viz.: self-sufficient source of life and eternal name, "I Am Who I Am". (John 8: 21-28; 14: 6-21; 19: 30-37)[/quote]

Theological gobbledigook!

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Don't forget to add the biggest miracle ever performed that proved He is God; namely, His resurrection!

Actually, it didn't. What it proved was that the Messiah alone was the human incarnation of the Divine Creator (i.e. the Son of God (Rom.1:4) rather than God Himself). That is not to say that the Messiah was not also the Divine Creator as well as a human creature but the Resurrection was about vindicating the Messiah as the human incarnation of the Divine Creator rather than for being the Divine Creator Himself since, as the Divine Creator, the Messiah is not the Son of God but God Himself (Matt.1:23).

Simonline.

 

[Superfast]

Actually, it didn't. What it proved was that the Messiah alone was the human incarnation of the Divine Creator (i.e. the Son of God (Rom.1:4) rather than God Himself). That is not to say that the Messiah was not also the Divine Creator as well as a human creature but the Resurrection was about vindicating the Messiah as the human incarnation of the Divine Creator rather than for being the Divine Creator Himself since, as the Divine Creator, the Messiah is not the Son of God but God Himself (Matt.1:23).

Simonline.

Theological gobbledigook!

I agree

 

[Harry3142]

What does Scripture tell us concerning the interrelationship between Jesus Christ and God the Father? This passage should help answer that question:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (I Corinthians 15:20-28,NIV)

So does this mean that after The End of Days Jesus will be demoted? Those who think so are still viewing God himself as Zeuslike, sitting on an actual throne. But God is not a physical being:

"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." (The Gospel of St. John 4:24)

So Christ is not being demoted; he's being enfolded. The Day of Judgement has arrived and passed. There is no more need for a saviour as a seperate being. So he will return to the Supreme Being out of whom he was incarnated.

But that still leaves us with unanswered questions. Who is God the Father? Where does the Holy Spirit fit into the equation? Jesus himself told us in language that we could understand that God is indeed a spirit rather than a corporeal being (John 4:24). But he also gave us his sternest warning concerning what our attitude was to be toward the Holy Spirit:

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (The Gospel of St. Matthew 12:30-32,NIV)

To this day blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is still recognized as 'the unforgivable sin'. Why? To find the answer to that question we need to look closely at the words 'Father', 'Son', and 'Holy Spirit'.

What do we see when we read the words 'Father' and 'Son'. We see titles. The same male in our society can be a father, a son, an uncle, a cousin, and a myriad other titles. They don't desribe him as an individual. Instead, they describe his place in a familial and societal order.

But what do we see when we read the words "Holy Spirit'. Now we are no longer seeing a title that could apply to any male in a society. Instead, we are seeing the words that are applied to a very specific being who can neither be duplicated nor continued through another being. We are face-to-face with the very essence of God himself, and we must tread lightly and respectfully. We are truly on Holy Ground.

Eventually the use of the titles 'Father' and 'Son' will no longer be necessary. The End of Days will have arrived, and their time will have ended as seperate entities. But they will not cease to exist, or be demoted. Instead, they will be 'enfolded' back into the essence out of whom they came, namely, the Holy Spirit.

 

[Simonline]

As author of this thread, I NEVER said that God and Jesus Christ were one and the same! That's a ridiculous notion.

No, it's the Truth. YHWH and Jesus of Nazareth are not the same but the Messiah exists as both the Divine Creator, YHWH and the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth. However, the way that the Messiah exists as the Divine Creator, YHWH is totally different to the way that He exists as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth and therefore YHWH and Jesus of Nazareth are NOT the same even whilst the Person of the Son, as incarnate, simultaneously exists as both the Divine Creator, YHWH and the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth.

But because you are a JW, I see your real problem is, not understanding that Jesus is God, but in understanding the "Holy Trinity" (Trinity).

In truth the two concepts (the Tri-Personal Nature of the Divine Creator, YHWH and His incarnation as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth) are 'joined at the hip' and to reject one is to reject the other also.


Let me address this issue in a way I learned from James R. White; who is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona. He is the author of more than a dozen books, a professor, an accomplished debater, and an elder of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

Now I know as a JW you are not taught to believe in the Trinity, but I believe in the Trinity because the Bible teaches the doctrine.[/quote]

Not quite. The Scriptures reveal truth and the Church then takes that revealed Truth and teaches it as doctrine (i.e. the encapsulation and articulation of all that has been revealed as truth).


It's true, the Bible does not use the specific word "Trinity," or "Holy Trinity," but it does teach three pillars that make up the doctrine. The first pillar is that there is only one true God, Jehovah, Creator of all things (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5). Surely you agree with me there, right?

The second pillar is that there are three divine Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I know JW's don't believe the Holy Spirit is a person, but you do agree that the Father and the Son are not the same person, correct?

Finally, the third pillar, the point on which we are in direct disagreement, is that the Bible teaches the full equality of these divine persons. This would include the deity of Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

No. This is pop-theology. This is the confusion of the three Persons Who are the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] with the temporal human incarnation of the Divine Creator [Jesus of Nazareth] who is the Messiah or Christ. The Divine Creator IS Eternal. The Messiah or Christ, as the human incarnation of the Divine Creator, is NOT.

With respect, your mentor (James R. White) has not done a very good job of mentoring you on the finer points of the Tri-Personal Nature of the Divine Creator and His human incarnation.

I am not asserting that there are three persons that are one person, nor that there are three beings that are one being. I am saying that they are three distinct persons, and I am differentiating between the terms "being" and "person."

Then why not just say that the Infinite Divine Creator is a single Entity Who Exists as Tri-Personal rather than mono-personal like His finite human creatures (Gen.1:26-27)?

The Bible teaches that all things have being, but only God, humans, and angels are personal.

Actually, the Bible reveals that all things exist as being (rather than as 'things' that 'possess' being which is a false Greek concept) but finite beings are contingent upon the Infinite Being Who is the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH.

I as a human being am one person, Mike Gentry. My being makes me human, my personality differentiates me from all other human beings. The same is true for you, and all other human beings. Since my being is finite and limited, only one person can properly exist in it; namely, me. But since God’s being is infinite and unlimited, it can be, and is, shared by three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

This is just sooo Aristotellian/Gnostic Greek. Your 'body' is NOT your temporary 'vehicle' or 'prison' for the 'true non-corporeal 'you' inside' as if it is some kind of physical 'suit' or 'vehicle' for the real discarnate 'you' (?!) Such a concept is thoroughly Gnostic and as such is equally thoroughly anti-Biblical.

You do not have body, you are body and when you experience the first death (separation) you as body will be temporarily separated from you as soul and spirit to await the resurrection when you as body will be reunited (forever) with you as soul and spirit as (not 'in') a new resurrected body ['...I believe in the resurrection of the body (as distinct from everlasting existence as a [Gnostic] non-corporeal spirit...which isn't going to happen)'] to spend forever with the Divine Creator or forever apart from Him in everlasting Perdition but either way you will be existing as a Hebraic incarnate entity rather than a Greek Gnostic discarnate entity (or 'ghost').

Now let me illustrate this from Scripture. I trust you and I both agree that the only true God is Jehovah. I believe the term ‘Jehovah’ refers to the very divine being, the eternal God, who created all things. You would agree with me that the Father is Jehovah, would you not? Where we disagree is this: I believe the Bible says that Jesus Christ is Jehovah, and the Spirit is also Jehovah. Each of the three persons shares the one divine name, Jehovah.

Again, this is pop-theology (i.e. the complete confusion of the temporal with the Eternal)?!

Jesus Christ is NOT YHWH. He is the human incarnation of YHWH. It is the Son who is the Second Person of the Trinity and not Jesus Christ.

As such, the Son is as much the Divine Creator, YHWH as is the Father and the Holy Spirit but only as incarnate (i.e. within Time and Space) does the Son exist as Jesus of Nazareth (or Jesus Christ).

As discarnate (i.e. without Time and Space) the Son is YHWH [God] but NOT Jesus of Nazareth [i.e. the Son of God - i.e. God Himself, incarnate as a man (Matt.1:23)].

Hold on, I know you're asking, "where does the Bible say this?" Using your own Witnesses’ translation, the New World Translation (NWT), turn to Hebrews 1:3, which speaks of Christ as the "exact representation of his nature." Go on and read through verse 8. Now, who is being discussed all through this passage? The citation that begins in verse 8 finishes in verse 9, following which the NWT says, "And: ‘You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands.’"

By its use of quotation marks in the text, the NWT clearly indicates that we are dealing here with a citation of the Old Testament. Continue reading through verse 12. Again, who is being described here? Like verses 3-8, the only possible answer is "the Son."

Now you may say something about how Jesus, is the first creation of Jehovah, and was the one through whom all the rest of creation was made, as long as we agree on the fact that Hebrews 1:10-12 is still making reference to the Son; agreed? If so, what passage is the writer of Hebrews quoting? The passage being cited, according to the cross references found in NWT reference editions, is Psalm 102:25-27.

Beginning at verse 1 of Psalm 102, please identify the individual being addressed in the passage. In your NWT that verse begins with, "O Jehovah, do hear my prayer." Now skip down to verse 12 and see that Jehovah remains the subject of the psalm. Notice that Jehovah continues to appear in verses 19 and 20 . This is important because once you get to verse 25 the significance of the words will be manifested. Jehovah is addressed in the very same words that the writer to the Hebrews uses of the Son, Jesus Christ!

And who, according to Isa.44:24 brought the creation into existence:

"I Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?" (Isa.44:24 NWT)

There is no reason to think that anyone other than Jehovah is being addressed by the psalmist in Psalm 102:25-27. You have now seen the first of many passages in which the New Testament writers take an Old Testament passage originally about Jehovah Himself and apply it to the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage is exceptionally strong, for the psalmist is speaking of the immutability, eternal nature, and creative power of Jehovah God, yet the writer to the Hebrews is willing to assert all these things of Jesus Christ. It demonstrates that Jesus is God!

No! It demonstrates that the Son is YHWH, just like the Father and the Holy Spirit, the same Son Who has incarnated as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth (the Messiah/Christ) but the Divine Creator did not die upon the cross any more than the human creature brought the creation into existence and yet the Son as both discarnate Divine Creator, YHWH and incarnate human creature, Jesus of Nazareth (i.e. the Messiah/Christ) has done both of these things. This is the mystery of the Incarnation.

continued...

 

[Simonline]

But we're not just talking about the deity of Christ, we are talking about the Trinity. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. (gotquestions.org) But just because it is humanly difficult to completely comprehend, doesn't mean it is biblically impossible to apprehend.

It's not only difficult for finite human creatures to fathom the depths of the Divine it is absolutely impossible. Nevertheless, the Divine Creator has revealed Himself in such a way that we can understand the Divine to a limited extent. [Everything that the Divine Creator has revealed to us is absolutely true but He has not revealed absolutely everything.]

The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity. (gotquestions.org)

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity. (gotquestions.org)

No. The holy Spirit descended on the Son of God [i.e. the human incarnation of YHWH] since He cannot descend on God the Son as discarnate.

The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4).(/quote)

How exactly do these two references show the distinction between 'LORD' and 'Lord'?

The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12).

NO! YHWH does have a son (a reference to His own human incarnation but definitely NOT a Divine offspring) but the Spirit is definitely NOT distinguished from either 'LORD' or 'God'. The Holy Spirit IS both LORD and God. The Spirit is sometimes distinguished from the Father and from the Son but NEVER from the 'LORD' or 'God' since that would be to disenfranchise the Holy Spirit as Divine?!

God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9 as shown earlier). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father. (gotquestions.org)

Except that the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth is NOT part of the Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH, the SON is, and the way that the Son Exists as the Divine Creator, YHWH is totally different to the way that He exists as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth?

Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16). (gotquestions.org)

OK.

You said, "other verses that can be found continue to indicate that God is higher than Jesus." There is subordination within the Trinity, but that doesn't make either person within it less divine.

There is no subordination within the Tri-Personal Nature of YHWH. There are different roles that the three Persons fulfil but there is no subordination. There is subordination between the Divine Creator and His human incarnation however.

Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God.

Again, difference in the nature of the relationships between the three Persons does not imply subordination between them.

Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14. (gotquestions.org)

The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things. (gotquestions.org)

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent. (gotquestions.org)

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit. (gotquestions.org)

That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity! Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34). (gotquestions.org)

I've said enough.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

I agree

What, that what I have said is the truth or that what I have said is theological gobbledegook?!

Simonline.