Biblical support for gay sex? A simple question

[EnemyPartyII]

No mention of computers in the Bible either. Just because something isn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean its bad.

"non-traditional marriage" is any form of marriage that is in any way different to the dominant paradigm of the society in which it is found.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To EnemyPartyII,

No mention of computers in the Bible either. J

you mean there is no mention of non-traditional computers. There is mention of marriage, it is man and woman always and only. You mentioned non-traditonal marriage, there can be no such thing as marriage is man and woman.

Just because something isn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean its bad.

nor does it mean its good either so your point has no value.

"non-traditional marriage" is any form of marriage that is in any way different to the dominant paradigm of the society in which it is found.

Ok thats a pagan view and not a Godly or Christian one. The Bible which is God's testimony defines marriage as man and woman and designed to be faithful. It was for this very reason woman was created for man.

 

[OllieFranz]

To EnemyPartyII

Exactly and celibacy is the absence of a union. So therefore man/woman marriage is not so much the norm, as the only option.
There are two gifts, marriage and celibacy, sexual immorality isn’t a gift.
“1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.”
Nope, firstly the truths that Paul writes were received from the risen Lord, Matthew and Mark write what of recorded words of Jesus on the topic. Again in Matthew 19 Jesus offers faithful man/woman marriage or celibacy, born that way, made that way by men or chosen that way.

Gay is a modern concept and refers to sexual desire not how one is born. As to the Talmud, Jesus was correcting the understanding of the Jewish leaders of the time, with reference to the Talmud your thinking seems to be on the same lines as the Pharisees in this respect.

Well yes it is as this is the option Jesus gives! When the Pharisees grumbled about faithful marriage Jesus offered celibacy. Whats non-traditional marriage? No mention of anything like that in the Bible.
Jesus did not describe the norm of man/woman marriage, He described the creation purpose of woman being created for man, He also defined it as faithful and offered celibacy, which is no union at all, as the alternative. In addition all countenanced unions in the Bible are man/woman
The argument for same sex unions is non-existant. Its like saying 2+2 isnt necessarily always 4 just because there is no evidence for it.

First, your venom was misdirected at EPII, since the post to which you are replying was mine not hers. Fortunately, she is a strong person and well able to withstand the assault. Still I feel it necessary to apologize to her for being the ultimate cause of an unnecessary attack.

When Jesus (Matthew 19) and Paul (1 Corinthians 7) gave the alternatives of celibacy or marriage, neither one limited the choice of who to marry. There are no Biblical passages that limit marriage to one man/one woman -- none. And combining passages to forbid same-sex marriage only works if you assume that all same-sex physical affection is forbidden.

But the only passages that mention sins of same-sex physicality mention specific circumstances: pagan rituals, rape, prostitution, and promiscuity/sexual addiction. These same circumstances are forbidden to cross-sex physicality as well. Does that mean all sex between a man and a woman is forbidden?

Of course not. The Bible specifically (if discretely) acknowledges that sex occurs in marriage (and is not sin), and in 1 Corinthians 7:9 Paul specifically states that one of the purposes of marriage is to allow someone who is "burning" a way of escape (to borrow from a later passage in the same letter).

On another thread, I asked why it is that it is only people who are not celibate themselves who try to force celibacy on those who do not have the gift for it. I'm asking it again here.

If they do not have the gift for celibacy and you deny them the right to call their committed, covenanted relationships marriages, what is left for gays? Where is the way of escape promised them from the temptation to inappropriate sex? By limiting God, you are making Him into a Promise-breaker. My God keeps His promises.

 

[Kerwin]

He did make humans bisexual... in that some humans are homosexual and some are heterosexual. Homosexuality is NOT about reproduction, or at least, not intended to result in reproduction of the homosexuals, however, homosexuality seems genetically linked to increasing the fertility of heterosexual carriers

Ok! My curiosity is stirred up. Do you have a link to back up your incredible claim? If it is true then the Birth Control movement will be not be happy as homosexuality is one way they proposed to control the population.

 

[HaloHope]

Ok! My curiosity is stirred up. Do you have a link to back up your incredible claim? If it is true then the Birth Control movement will be not be happy as homosexuality is one way they proposed to control the population.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0002282

Was discussed here lots a while back

 

[OllieFranz]

Thank you Halo.

I've been looking for the article to post here and hadn't found it yet. I knew it existed because of the earlier discussions you mentioned. Now that I have the authors' names, I'm able to locate reviews of the paper that puts the theory and its conclusions in plain English, since the mathematical formulae and the refference to "alleles" cause many people's eyes to glaze over.

http://www.bitoffun.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=417
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1295
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6519

 

[HaloHope]

Thank you Halo.

I've been looking for the article to post here and hadn't found it yet. I knew it existed because of the earlier discussions you mentioned. Now that I have the authors' names, I'm able to locate reviews of the paper that puts the theory and its conclusions in plain English, since the mathematical formulae and the refference to "alleles" cause many people's eyes to glaze over.

http://www.bitoffun.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=417
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1295
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6519

No problem.
It's an interesting study and along with the most recent research into brain differences in homosexual people I feel an important part to demonstrate homosexuality is innate to a large degree.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Olliefranz,

First, your venom was misdirected at EPII,

Firstly it wasn’t venom.
My apologies for the misdirection.

When Jesus (Matthew 19) and Paul (1 Corinthians 7) gave the alternatives of celibacy or marriage, neither one limited the choice of who to marry.

Of course it did, that’s why Jesus cites Genesis 2 and God creating woman for man for this reason!

There are no Biblical passages that limit marriage to one man/one woman -- none.

yes there are, many as shown. We are not being asked in the thread what the Bible doesn’t say, but Biblical texts to support gay sex, your comment is off topic.

But the only passages that mention sins of same-sex physicality mention specific circumstances:

No they don’t and that has been shown to you, in Leviticus 18 & 20 it says the pagans do such things and God’s people don’t, in Romans 1 it says those who turn from God’s wisdom do such things including idolatry. And you are still off topic, the thread asks you for texts which support gay sex not your objections to the ones that condemn it.

Of course not. The Bible specifically (if discretely) acknowledges that sex occurs in marriage (and is not sin), and in 1 Corinthians 7:9 Paul specifically states that one of the purposes of marriage is to allow someone who is "burning" a way of escape (to borrow from a later passage in the same letter). On another thread, I asked why it is that it is only people who are not celibate themselves who try to force celibacy on those who do not have the gift for it. I'm asking it again here.

If they do not have the gift for celibacy and you deny them the right to call their committed, covenanted relationships marriages, what is left for gays?

“Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.” – 1 Corinthians 7:1 What is left for adulterers, thieves etc?
The answer is accept Jesus Christ as Lord and have ones mind renewed.

Where is the way of escape promised them from the temptation to inappropriate sex? By limiting God, you are making Him into a Promise-breaker. My God keeps His promises.

My God is the God of the Bible who through Jesus Christ keeps His promises and creates a new life in us, one in which we can live to the full with minds and lives renewed.

 

[KCKID]

The answer is accept Jesus Christ as Lord and have ones mind renewed.

As mentioned previously, my friend had accepted Jesus when he was 8 years-old and reaffirmed that commitment a number of times later in life. He also realized that he was 'different' around about the same time and he prayed about it. How much more renewing of his mind - how many more years - was required before God heard his prayer for deliverance from homosexuality? He's now 27, should he receive an answer any time soon?

My God is the God of the Bible who through Jesus Christ keeps His promises and creates a new life in us, one in which we can live to the full with minds and lives renewed.

My friend is now an agnostic. He once was my Christian mentor. Can I assure him from you that Jesus keeps His promises as long as he 'hangs in'? Do I tell him that it just might take longer than expected by which time every ounce of existing faith that he might have had will probably have long since gone?

You have no idea, bms, what homosexuality is all about. Ignorance may well be bliss but it can also be disgusting when it adversely affects others. And, please stop bleating about scriptures that don't exist as if their very absence is somehow a 'thus saith' for the anti-'gays'.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

The Bible which is God's testimony defines marriage as man and woman and designed to be faithful. It was for this very reason woman was created for man.

How is this a "reason woman was created for man"? Are you suggesting that homosexual couples can't be faithful?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Ok! My curiosity is stirred up. Do you have a link to back up your incredible claim? If it is true then the Birth Control movement will be not be happy as homosexuality is one way they proposed to control the population.

Which particular claim do you find "incredible"?

Ask me a specific question, and I'll provide you specific links.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

If they do not have the gift for celibacy and you deny them the right to call their committed, covenanted relationships marriages, what is left for gays? Where is the way of escape promised them from the temptation to inappropriate sex? By limiting God, you are making Him into a Promise-breaker. My God keeps His promises.

Crux point, direct answers would be appreciated ($10 says nothing but vague platitudes are forthcoming)

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,

As mentioned previously, my friend had accepted Jesus when he was 8 years-old and reaffirmed that commitment a number of times later in life. He also realized that he was 'different' around about the same time and he prayed about it. How much more renewing of his mind - how many more years - was required before God heard his prayer for deliverance from homosexuality? He's now 27, should he receive an answer any time soon?

Yet many have. To accept a life renewed is to focus on and follow Jesus Christ, the old is dead the new has come. Christians may still, have all the temptations they just resist the devil and he flees. Jesus NT teaching says flee from sexual immorality.
But if one accepts that homosexual practice and unions are error one’s mind is renewed and his thoughts made captive to Jesus Christ.

My friend is now an agnostic. He once was my Christian mentor. Can I assure him from you that Jesus keeps His promises as long as he 'hangs in'? Do I tell him that it just might take longer than expected by which time every ounce of existing faith that he might have had will probably have long since gone?

I am here to debate and not counsel. I suggest finding a church or Christian fellowship to help.

You have no idea, bms, what homosexuality is all about. Ignorance may well be bliss but it can also be disgusting when it adversely affects others.

I would suggest you have no idea what Christian beliefs are especially on this topic. Furthermore the thread is about Biblical support for gay sex not what homosexuality is about, and please don’t lecture me about homosexuality when I have personal friends who are homosexuals.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To EnemypartyII

How is this a "reason woman was created for man"?

How is it not when it says that. God made male and female it was for this reason that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife.

Are you suggesting that homosexual couples can't be faithful?

no I am not suggesting that as its irrelevant.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

God made male and female it was for this reason that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife.

Normative. Passage is equally valid translated as "people" since we know, from galatians, that God doesn't see a difference between genders.

 

[OllieFranz]

To Olliefranz,
Firstly it wasn’t venom.
My apologies for the misdirection.

Of course it did, that’s why Jesus cites Genesis 2 and God creating woman for man for this reason! yes there are, many as shown. We are not being asked in the thread what the Bible doesn’t say, but Biblical texts to support gay sex, your comment is off topic.

It is not off topic. It was established with my earlier posts in this thread that the question implies that the Bible "supports" hetero-sex in at least some circumstances, and that if there are any verses that "support" gay sex, they need not be any more explicit than those ones are. So pointing out that the verses you use to claim acceptance for sex within marriage are not exclusive to heterosexual relationships is very much on topic.

As far as Genesis 2:24 being "exclusive" to male/female relationships, then why is it that Jonathan's and David's relationship is described in exactly the same terms? Jonathan's soul was knit with David's and they became one. David went no more to his father's house, but stayed with Jonathan.

No they don’t and that has been shown to you, in Leviticus 18 & 20 it says the pagans do such things and God’s people don’t, in Romans 1 it says those who turn from God’s wisdom do such things including idolatry. And you are still off topic, the thread asks you for texts which support gay sex not your objections to the ones that condemn it.

And if I claimed that Leviticus 18:19 and Leviticus 20:18 meant that any and all hetero-sex was condemned, would it be off topic for you to correct me? After all, pagans have sex with their wives, sometimes it is even during their period.

“Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.” – 1 Corinthians 7:1 What is left for adulterers, thieves etc?

???The temptation to adultery is exactly the temptation to immorality that marriage provides an answer to. That is the whole purpose of the passage. A person still has free will, and still choose to commit sexual immoral acts, but he can't claim that God failed to keep his Promise to provide a way of escape.

KCKid's post provides a better answer than any I could give why, if you claim that this passage does not apply to same-sex marriage as well as male/female marriage you are limiting God and making Him into a Promise-breaker.

And while all sin is immoral, it is clear that the immorality being discussed in this passage is sexual immorality. So the reference to "thieves, etc." makes no sense whatsoever.

The answer is accept Jesus Christ as Lord and have ones mind renewed.

Yes, that is the answer to most of life's issues. But the renewing of one's mind does not generally include the changing of one's orientation.

My God is the God of the Bible who through Jesus Christ keeps His promises and creates a new life in us, one in which we can live to the full with minds and lives renewed.

So why then do you try to limit Him?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To EnemyPartyII

Normative. Passage is equally valid translated as "people" since we know, from galatians, that God doesn't see a difference between genders.

No its not normative, that’s like saying 2+2 isn’t always 4. There are only two possibilities between man and woman, either God created man for man or woman for man. The text says God created woman for man so He didn’t create man for man.
As to Galatians 3 God doesn’t see a differences in the sexes when it comes to inheritance but if one is proposing same-sex unions that isn’t in Christ as Christ’s teaching excludes and condemns same-sex unions.

 

[KCKID]

I would suggest you have no idea what Christian beliefs are especially on this topic.

Oh, believe me, bms ...I DO know what the Christian beliefs on this topic are. They are based on ignorance and superstitions and taboos about sex written by ancient minds of a culture that had NO concept of MANY things that we of today are enlightened about. Even epilepsy was regarded by those of that culture as one's being 'demon possessed'. We really HAVE moved on in regard to medicine, science, and our understanding of the human anatomy and the psychology of the human mind. Christians need to play 'catch up' and join the real world in regard to the diversities of human sexuality that need not have anything to do with immorality.

Furthermore the thread is about Biblical support for gay sex

Yes, I'm well aware of that. The following (as taken from my previous post) IS my response to the OP. I repeat: And, please stop bleating about scriptures that don't exist as if their very absence is somehow a 'thus saith' for the anti-'gays'.

]... not what homosexuality is about, and please don’t lecture me about homosexuality when I have personal friends who are homosexuals.[/SIZE]

Good. Then you perhaps need to put down your weapon (your Bible) and BE their friend. The 'clout' texts that you so incessantly use to aim at people who are 'naturally' homosexual are not conducive to sustaining such friendships.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Ollifranz,

It is not off topic. It was established with my earlier posts in this thread that the question implies that the Bible "supports" hetero-sex in at least some circumstances, and that if there are any verses that "support" gay sex, they need not be any more explicit than those ones are.

You mean you established it for yourself, its error as I pointed out Jesus cites Genesis 2 and God creating woman for man for this reason!

So pointing out that the verses you use to claim acceptance for sex within marriage are not exclusive to heterosexual relationships is very much on topic.

But they are exclusively man and woman. Show me one passage where man and man is countenanced. At the moment you are trying to claim what you can’t give any evidence for and I can prove is worng

As far as Genesis 2:24 being "exclusive" to male/female relationships,

It is exclusive, it says God created woman for man.

then why is it that Jonathan's and David's relationship is described in exactly the same terms? Jonathan's soul was knit with David's and they became one. David went no more to his father's house, but stayed with Jonathan.

Because it isn’t described exactly the same, with David and Jonathan it says soul, with man and woman it says flesh.

And if I claimed that Leviticus 18:19 and Leviticus 20:18 meant that any and all hetero-sex was condemned, would it be off topic for you to correct me? After all, pagans have sex with their wives, sometimes it is even during their period.

it doesn’t say or mean hetero-sex that’s just gay thinking, Leviticus says a man shall not lie with another man as with a woman and to the people 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.” And 29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

???The temptation to adultery is exactly the temptation to immorality that marriage provides an answer to. That is the whole purpose of the passage.

Not quite, marriage is not an answer to avoid adultery, many commit adultery when married, marriage is an answer for sexual immorality though, same-sex unions being an example of sexual immorality. Furthermore the marriage is man and woman Jesus teaching here as in Matthew 19, Mark 10, etc.

A person still has free will, and still choose to commit sexual immoral acts, but he can't claim that God failed to keep his Promise to provide a way of escape.

God does provide a way of escape, Jesus Christ.
Colossians 3:1 “Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. “
Christians who now they have been raised with Christ know their lives are bought at a price. To honour God with their bodies and not in homosexual practice 1 Corinthians 6.

KCKid's post provides a better answer than any I could give why, if you claim that this passage does not apply to same-sex marriage as well as male/female marriage you are limiting God and making Him into a Promise-breaker.

Not as far as I can see, I’ll go with what the Bible actually says.

Yes, that is the answer to most of life's issues. But the renewing of one's mind does not generally include the changing of one's orientation.

Yes it does, it did for NT disciples and does today. People who don’t believe it can are don’t believe what God has said He can do.

So why then do you try to limit Him?

I don’t try and make out something that God has said is error and sin is somehow not. My God is the God of the Bible who through Jesus Christ keeps His promises and creates a new life in us, one in which we can live to the full with minds and lives renewed free from the bondage of sin.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,

Oh, believe me, bms ...I DO know what the Christian beliefs on this topic are. They are based on ignorance and superstitions and taboos about sex written by ancient minds of a culture that had NO concept of MANY things that we of today are enlightened about.

No they aren’t that’s atheist beliefs, Christian beliefs are that God has revealed His purposes, Jesus spoke the words of God and reveals God’s Kingdom.

Good. Then you perhaps need to put down your weapon (your Bible) and BE their friend.

I don’t have to put down the Bible for them as they aren’t as offended by it as you, that’s why I have said I don’t think the debates here are really about homosexuality so much as about the Bible. The Bible contains the words of God which are life.

The 'clout' texts that you so incessantly use to aim at people who are 'naturally' homosexual are not conducive to sustaining such friendships.

There are no clout passages for those who are washed, sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6.

2 Corinthians 10:4 “The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

2 Corinthians 10:5 “We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.”

God does not want anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance. – 2 Peter 3