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Biblical Interpretation

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JVAC

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Hello all, I am out here in Fres-yes doing my schoolin, and lately I have come to be very discontent with a class of mine called, "Biblical Interpretation". Those of you that know me you know I go to an Annabaptist College so you could only imagine how class goes!! (I haven't got kicked out yet, though I did get close, but that had to do with building fortress and launching oranges...).

Well the first part of the class went as I predicted, while I also corrected the many misunderstandings of the Lutheran thoughts. Yet I have now come to an interesting point in the class where we are at "Modern Interpretation Methods" and after my public denouncement of it all as heresy, I began to realize, that my interpretation of Sacred Scripture was becoming more Orthodox than Lutheran (except the Original sin, that will never go). I say this because while I still think the BoC properly interprets scripture I don't think that modern "exegesis" can be contrary to patristic "exegesis".

Which brings me to the question I wanted to ask y'all: How do you Interpret the Bible, what sources are authoritative to your conscience, and who's interpretation is correct?

(No sunday school answers!!! I don't accept the BoC is the only true interpretation, because we know that already!)

Blessed be God the Creator of All!
Blessed be God the Word!
Blessed be God the paraclete!
Blessed be God three in ONE!

-James
 

Jim47

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JVAC said:
Which brings me to the question I wanted to ask y'all: How do you Interpret the Bible, what sources are authoritative to your conscience, and who's interpretation is correct?

-James


The only way to properly interpret is with The Word of God, "The Bible"
 
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Music4Hym777

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revjpw said:
What??:confused: Are you saying that you won't accept the answer "The BoC is the only true interpretation" or are you saying that you don't accept the BoC as the only true interpretation?

Even I could answer that one for James, he wont accept the ANSWER!!! Sorry, James, I just remember this from past discussions.
 
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JVAC

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revjpw said:
What??:confused: Are you saying that you won't accept the answer "The BoC is the only true interpretation" or are you saying that you don't accept the BoC as the only true interpretation?


DaRev

Monica was right in saying the "answer". What kind of a Lutheran wouldn't accept the BoC? (thinks for a minute) Wait... don't answer that ;-).




To all the people that say, "I interpret Scripture through Scripture", I don't quite understand what you are saying. It would help if you elaborated or gave a for instance. When you say Scripture interprets Scripture do you mean that Historical context doesn't matter?

I have found this quite interesting because this same assertion is being used on this campus today. That Scripture interprets Scripture, and this might be the Roman in me but I disagree. I think the Church rightly has interpreted Scripture, because, infact Scripture comes from the Church. I think Luther said it best when he said, "I see nothing in Scripture but Christ crucified". This has always been the interpretation of Scriptures as can be seen from the Fathers.

It seems to me that a "Scripture interprets Scripture" approach is always subjective and relative, while "Scripture as interpreted through the Holy Church" is always constant and unchanging. It seems that an unchanging interpretation of Scripture would fit our Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I think I have ranted for long enough, I would like to hear in more depth how you interpret and if you would be willing an example from that most celebrated text!

Glory to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost
-James
 
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ByzantineDixie

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JVAC said:
It seems to me that a "Scripture interprets Scripture" approach is always subjective and relative, while "Scripture as interpreted through the Holy Church" is always constant and unchanging. It seems that an unchanging interpretation of Scripture would fit our Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I agree with you...the Church does interpret scripture and she has in the BoC. Now...has the church always been reliable in her interpretation? Hmmm...if so, then why the need for the BoC?

It's quite complex in the end, isn't it?

Peace

Rose
 
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JVAC

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Luthers Rose said:
I agree with you...the Church does interpret scripture and she has in the BoC. Now...has the church always been reliable in her interpretation? Hmmm...if so, then why the need for the BoC?

It's quite complex in the end, isn't it?

Peace

Rose
Hey Rose,

I guess it always comes down to our deffinition of the church ;). The reason we needed the BoC was because the Roman Pontif sought it best to vex the consciences of his sheep so to build his palace (for the extravagent parties of Leo X is well known, so this is not a flame but an historical fact). I do contend that the catholic faith that was handed down by the blessed apostles through the Holy Church has always existed in the faith of the Saints. Expressly it is shown in many orthodox patristic writtings. Throughout the ages it has been taught through the Liturgy of the Church and many holy and pius presbyters and bishops held firm to it.

Now as to the necessity of the BoC, it was necessary to assemble this book because Lutheranism, a lot like the eastern church, was very decentralized and was required, as to the times, nail down such things. Though there is nothing in the BoC, save the episcopate, that can't be supported in the Patristics, and this is why Blessed Melanchthon so quoted them in the AC as well as Chemnitz and Luther using their authoritative witness in their many works.

It seems to me that in every time the Church has seeked to establish its teachings as near to Christ as possible. Many Churches figure they can do this through the witness of the Scriptures alone, something Luther himself never suggested. While the Scriptures are an inspired authority in our Church their interpretation has always been at issue, ex. the ancient herressies, though at the same time their true interpretation was never an issue in the catholic Church. This is seen through the writings of Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna, Irrenaeus of Lyon, Athanasius of Alexandria, Alexander of Alexandria, John "Chrysostom" of Antioch, etc.

My thoughts of Interpretation have always been subject to the Fathers as a rule, but I wanted to know if this was common in Lutheranism, or if it was my Romanism, because as best I can tell, The Lutheran Fathers thought the same way as the catholic Fathers. The interpretation was the same because the later fathers used the earlier ones who used the apostles themselves who inturn cited the Word, Jesus.

Glory to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost!
-James
 
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Music4Hym777

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JVAC said:
Monica was right in saying the "answer". What kind of a Lutheran wouldn't accept the BoC? (thinks for a minute) Wait... don't answer that ;-).

You know I am!!!!:p

Ummm....in regard to your question, lets see.....last year-ish, how about this girl that I know, ummmm maybe me:blush: :clap:
 
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filosofer

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1 Observe the Intended Meaning

“The first principle is to take the words of Scripture in their normal, intended sense unless the context compels us to understand the words figuratively which then becomes the intended sense.”

2 Let Scripture Interpret Scripture

“This principle refers to the fact that passages dealing with the same topic can be used to explain and support each other. It means that the less clear and more difficult passages of the Bible are to be considered in the light of the clearer passages.”

3 Observe the Law of Context

“This principle warns the interpreter never to tear a passage out of the context in which it appears. Always explain the parts in the light of the whole.”

4 Interpret Scripture in Harmony with Itself

“This principle asserts that all of Scripture is a unity because God is the author of both the Old and New Testaments. No passage should be understood in a way that contradicts another clear statement of Scripture.”

5 Interpret Scripture Christologically

“This principle states that the entire Scripture must be seen in the light of God’s redeeming activity in Jesus Christ. Christ is not only the center of Scripture, he is the purpose of Scripture.”
 
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Jim47

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JVAC said:
It seems to me that a "Scripture interprets Scripture" approach is always subjective and relative, while "Scripture as interpreted through the Holy Church" is always constant and unchanging. It seems that an unchanging interpretation of Scripture would fit our Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

-James

I like Filo's guidelines, and as for your statement above. Who's church are we going to use to interpret? From what era? The eartly human church has always had error invoked on it.

How will we accomplish the goal you stated above and I underlined if we use "The church" , God's Word is never changing, where as man is ever changing and falling away from God.
 
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CrossWiseMag

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That's my answer, and I'm stickin' to it. The Holy Spirit is the one that I trust to interpret for me.


Those last two words are where we get into a problem. It is a relatively recent phenomenon -- and I think a not-necessarily-Christian phenomenon -- to view the interpretation of Scripture as an individual matter. In fact, Scripture itself warns against it. So yes, the Holy Spirit is our interpreter. But that comes in the framework of the Church. As Pastor William Weedon once said, "Holy Scripture points us to the faith of the Fathers, and the Fathers (in their writings) point us back to Scripture."

All sorts of people claim the Holy Spirit has interpreted Holy Scripture for them. But they come up with all sorts of weird interpretations that clearly cannot be from the Holy Spirit.
 
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SPALATIN

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CrossWiseMag said:
That's my answer, and I'm stickin' to it. The Holy Spirit is the one that I trust to interpret for me.

Those last two words are where we get into a problem. It is a relatively recent phenomenon -- and I think a not-necessarily-Christian phenomenon -- to view the interpretation of Scripture as an individual matter. In fact, Scripture itself warns against it. So yes, the Holy Spirit is our interpreter. But that comes in the framework of the Church. As Pastor William Weedon once said, "Holy Scripture points us to the faith of the Fathers, and the Fathers (in their writings) point us back to Scripture."

All sorts of people claim the Holy Spirit has interpreted Holy Scripture for them. But they come up with all sorts of weird interpretations that clearly cannot be from the Holy Spirit.

I agree 100% with what you are saying. Why would Christ establish the church if it were not to help us to understand what scriptures say? All one has to do is go over to the GT forum and you get a lot of that talk about the Holy Spirit giving them individual interpretation. Where I see that here most is between the ELCA people and the other more confessional synods. Now I am not saying that there are not ELCA confessionals here on TCCL, but for the most part those that belong to that synod take a more American Evangelical understanding to the scriptures.

:(
 
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ChiRho

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filosofer said:

1 Observe the Intended Meaning

“The first principle is to take the words of Scripture in their normal, intended sense unless the context compels us to understand the words figuratively which then becomes the intended sense.”

2 Let Scripture Interpret Scripture

“This principle refers to the fact that passages dealing with the same topic can be used to explain and support each other. It means that the less clear and more difficult passages of the Bible are to be considered in the light of the clearer passages.”

3 Observe the Law of Context

“This principle warns the interpreter never to tear a passage out of the context in which it appears. Always explain the parts in the light of the whole.”

4 Interpret Scripture in Harmony with Itself

“This principle asserts that all of Scripture is a unity because God is the author of both the Old and New Testaments. No passage should be understood in a way that contradicts another clear statement of Scripture.”

5 Interpret Scripture Christologically

“This principle states that the entire Scripture must be seen in the light of God’s redeeming activity in Jesus Christ. Christ is not only the center of Scripture, he is the purpose of Scripture.”

:amen:
(that's pronounced ah-mane ;) )
 
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JVAC

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filosofer said:

1 Observe the Intended Meaning

“The first principle is to take the words of Scripture in their normal, intended sense unless the context compels us to understand the words figuratively which then becomes the intended sense.”

2 Let Scripture Interpret Scripture

“This principle refers to the fact that passages dealing with the same topic can be used to explain and support each other. It means that the less clear and more difficult passages of the Bible are to be considered in the light of the clearer passages.”

3 Observe the Law of Context

“This principle warns the interpreter never to tear a passage out of the context in which it appears. Always explain the parts in the light of the whole.”

4 Interpret Scripture in Harmony with Itself

“This principle asserts that all of Scripture is a unity because God is the author of both the Old and New Testaments. No passage should be understood in a way that contradicts another clear statement of Scripture.”

5 Interpret Scripture Christologically

“This principle states that the entire Scripture must be seen in the light of God’s redeeming activity in Jesus Christ. Christ is not only the center of Scripture, he is the purpose of Scripture.”

Hey Filo,
Does the ranking matter or are these all principles on the same level?

I like Filo's guidelines, and as for your statement above. Who's church are we going to use to interpret? From what era? The eartly human church has always had error invoked on it.

Good day Jim,

In respect to the who's church question, I would like to say I believe there to be one Church and apart from that there is no "church". When I talk about big C Church I am talking about the bride of Christ. Next, I don't think the interpretation of the Church has changed, the Church's interpretation remains the same, and that is Christological. I don't believe in an "earthly human church", but in one that is Holy, catholic, and Apostolic. While the humans in it are sinners, the Church, regardless, is the Mother of all believers and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her.

That being said the Church, which has always maintained the testimony of the Apostles, does not error in its teaching of divine Scripture, as long as it remains apostolic. If it ceases to be apostolic it is no longer the Church but a heresy. Arius, Nestorius, Maniche, Pelagius, Apolinarius, etc. were all teachers who ceased to be apostolic and their errors were not errors in the Church but outside of the Church. Likewise, the Holy Fathers recorded for us the teaching they recieved through the apostles and through this teaching we are able to remain apostolic in doctrine.

How will we accomplish the goal you stated above and I underlined if we use "The church" , God's Word is never changing, where as man is ever changing and falling away from God.

The Church, like her husband who made her, will never change (doctrinally). She is always the faithful and chaste bride. People who have sought to change the Bride of Christ always found themselves anathema. This can be seen from the earliest of times, the Judaizers were condemned because of their false reliance on the law/circumcission, the Donatists found themselves excommunicated because of their misunderstanding of the participation of God in the Holy Sacraments, the impious arians desired to skew the thought of the bride to slander her holy spouse which resulted in their anathema, thus so with all heresies who tried to interpret the Sacred writs in new ways.

The Church has been able to maintain her orthodox faith from Donatism to Anabaptism, from Docetism to Mormanism and all of these have been condemned through the authority of the Church to rightly interpret her book! I do see man changing, but I see the Church as imovable built solidly on the apostles the sure foundation with the saints building up the walls and Christ Jesus as the magnificent capstone creating a Church that is beyond time and the effects thereof.


Hmmmmmmmm... :scratch: Let's think about this for a moment...

Scripture=inspired, innerrant Word of God..."heaven and earth will pass away but My Word will never pass away..."

Church=hundreds of diferent denominations with hundreds of different interpretations of the Bible... Roman Catholicism, "only the Church(RCC) can interpret Scripture".....


I think I'll stick with the Lutheran stance that Scripture interprets Scripture. It doesn't change, hasn't changed, and will never change.


DaRev

I understand what you are saying and if it were that simple I would agree with you, however, people interpret Scripture differently. They interpret other Scriptures differently also. This leads them to citing Scripture with Scripture and can ultimately lead to a wrong interpretation.

I agree with your idea of Scripture, but I cannot concede to your thought of "the Church". All of the denominations today are not completely right, while each might have a truth they still fall short. Yet the Holy Church which never had denominations, has always taught the same truth: Christ has died, Christ is Risen, Christ will come again!

Blessed St Polycarp once wrote, "Wherefore forsaking the vanity of many let us return to the Word that was handed down to us" and proceeds to interpret it (the old testament) through the apostolic teaching. Again the Most Pius St Athanasius of Alexandria (Pope of the east) wrote that "The proper interpretation of Sacred and Inspired Scripture is the interpretation of our Blessed Teachers". St Ignatius writes, "It was the Holy Spirit that caused me to urge you to do nothing without the Bishop", that is the one who was educated in the way of the Apostles. St Irrenaeus thought it so important he left us with many great teachings but namely, "The preaching of the Church has never changed" and "True Gnosis is the doctrine of the Apostles". While still our own Lutheran Fathers cling to these truths in the confessions. Our Church has always interpreted our written Tradition along with the Oral tradition, eventually that oral tradition became written in what we know as the Patristics. While they are not inerrant as the Holy writs are, they still tell us how the Church has always thought and taught.

I think the most Lutheran way is through the patristics, after all it was the way used in the AC and the Apology.

Thank you all for your responses, it is threads like these that I learn the most!

Glory to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
-James
 
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Jim47

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You made a couple interesting points and one I don't understand.

JVAC said:
Good day Jim,

In respect to the who's church question, I would like to say I believe there to be one Church and apart from that there is no "church". When I talk about big C Church I am talking about the bride of Christ. Next, I don't think the interpretation of the Church has changed, the Church's interpretation remains the same, and that is Christological. I don't believe in an "earthly human church", but in one that is Holy, catholic, and Apostolic. While the humans in it are sinners, the Church, regardless, is the Mother of all believers and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her.

-James

While I agree with the Holy Christian Church that is made up of all believers, and of which I am very happy to be part of, how are we going to use this church to imterpret scripture? This church is the invisible church, which brings us back to your origional question. By Whom or how do we interpret scripture.

While I also agree with your statement that by using scripture to interpret itself, there will always be different teachings and beliefs, I also don't see any way around that in this life.

I have often thought that God allows divisions within the church to use this as a means by which His Word is sent out by more people, because of so many different beliefs. To be sure, I don't think He wants it this way, but uses this bad thing to serve His purpose.
 
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JVAC

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While I agree with the Holy Christian Church that is made up of all believers, and of which I am very happy to be part of, how are we going to use this church to imterpret scripture? This church is the invisible church, which brings us back to your origional question. By Whom or how do we interpret scripture.

If we believe the Augsburg Confession to correctly define the Church then we are to understand that: "The Church is the congregation of Saints where the gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments rightly administered". Therefore, there is no "invisible" church but only the One true Church that proclaims the one true Gospel. That is the Church rightly interprets the Gospel and all others do not. So, can there be a church where the Gospel is falsely interpreted, the answer is no, because only the Church preaches the Gospel rightly. This is why Luther said, "If one wishes to be saved let him first seek out the Holy Church" and also why St. Cyprian of Carthage made the bold claim that "If there was salvation for those outside of the ark of Noe, then there is also salvation for those outside of the Holy catholic Church".

While I also agree with your statement that by using scripture to interpret itself, there will always be different teachings and beliefs, I also don't see any way around that in this life.

Here I most deffinately agree with you, because of Original Sin humanity is doomed to rebel against all good. Thank God he does not judge us on our orthodoxy, nor on our acts of piety but on the sole merit of the Crucified one.

The Lord bless us and defend us!
-James
 
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night2day

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JVAC said:
Monica was right in saying the "answer". What kind of a Lutheran wouldn't accept the BoC? (thinks for a minute) Wait... don't answer that ;-).

As I saw one signature used on a mailing list which sums it up:

"I Am Kieschnick of Borg - Your Theology Will Assimilate Us."
 
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Jim47

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I'd like to try a new answer, one I guess I've always believed but never given any thought.

We use scripture to interpret but we also use the confessions and the BoC as a guide to make sure that we understand the clear teachings of scripture. The one should verify the other and if we see a difference than perhaps we need to seek the counciling of a trained Minister to set us straight, as there should be no difference between the two, for God gave us Martin Luther and others to make more clear His teachings so that we might believe the truth. :preach:

Jn 8:31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

Jn 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
 
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