Biblical Creationism versus Hindu Creationism

[Split Rock]

No, thanks --- you contrast them if you want to --- the "Hindu holy books" can take a hike.

How's come the Hindu don't practice the Caste System today?

Actually, many still do, even though it is illegal.

How come christians don't eat only Kosher food?

 

[MrGoodBytes]

I said INDIA, didn't I?

Yes... your point being? It's rather hard to extrapolate your argument from what little your post reveals.

 

[ragarth]

So... anyone have a valid argument as to why the bible is better than the Veda et al.?

 

[AV1611VET]

So... anyone have a valid argument as to why the bible is better than the Veda et al.?

Several reasons in one:

1. It was written over a period of 1500 years
2. By over 40 authors
3. On 3 continents
4. In 3 languages
5. Under various conditions: war, peace, civil unrest
6. Who held a variety of vocations from fisherman to king
7. And held various attitudes toward their Inspirer

And yet all 66 books go together like a hand in a glove.
And yet It is the best seller of all time.
And yet despite efforts by even the world's most powerful empire to eradicate It, It still stands.

Even time is measured by the appearance of the Son of Its Author.

It also contains the history of the world written --- in advance --- and so far, fulfilled with 100% accuracy.

 

[ragarth]

Several reasons in one:

1. It was written over a period of 1500 years
2. By over 40 authors
3. On 3 continents
4. In 3 languages
5. Under various conditions: war, peace, civil unrest
6. Who held a variety of vocations from fisherman to king
7. And held various attitudes toward their Inspirer

And yet all 66 books go together like a hand in a glove.
And yet It is the best seller of all time.
And yet despite efforts by even the world's most powerful empire to eradicate It, It still stands.

Even time is measured by the appearance of the Son of Its Author.

It also contains the history of the world written --- in advance --- and so far, fulfilled with 100% accuracy.

1) The Veda's written origin date anywhere from 1500BC to 6,000BC depending on who you ask, but were passed from generation to generation via oral tradition long before that. This addition of oral tradition makes it very difficult to date how long it took for the Vedas to develop, but it's certainly longer than 1500 years. This also means that the Veda are older than the Bible, Koran, or Torah

2) It's unknown how many authors the Veda had, many believe that they were handed down directly from Brahma and inspired by Vishnu, but I'm not a believer in Gods and supernatural. There are unknown millinia of oral tradition behind the Vedas though, so every mouth uttering these ancient words is a potential author.

3) I'm sorry, my fudge fairy is tingling. This adds value how?

4) The Vedas were written in Vedic Sanskrit, a very ancient language indeed dating back to the Aryan civilization of the time. It's unknown what dialects it went through in it's early oral history, and I think oral history trumps written in terms of 'number of languages' games.

5) Same with the Vedas, no difference

6) The Vedas were passed down through oral history long before they were written down, many millenia ago. They even predate the creation of the Hindu caste system. It's believed that they have divine origin through Brahma. I didn't see a god listed directly in your list! Seriously though, if we assume they're both just books it's unknown how many people had a hand in the Veda's creation since it was at two points an oral tradition.

7) I have no clue how you devised this one. It could both speak for and against the value of the bible, so it's of little consequence to the discussion at hand.

The King James Version, which I think you prefer is written with fluidity and poeticism in mind. It's amazing what a group fo translators can accomplish in terms of fluidity, especially if they're very learned men. Now, how is it that the Vedas don't go together like a hand fits in a glove? After so many millenia and so much oral tradition, they seem pretty fluidic and fittably nice for each other to me!

As for it being a best seller, so you're letting public opinion vote your religious choices for you? That's a bit disengenious.

What empire tried to eliminate the bible, Rome? This period of christian persecution lasted around 320 some years. The British tried to wipe out Hinduism when they occupied India for almost 200 years. Further, during the Islamic occupation of the Indian subcontinent, the muslims persecuted and tried to wipe out the hindus. The Islamic persecution of the Hindus was even more savage than the british persecution, and this lasted from 800 AD to 1700 AD as one of the bloodiest conquests in written history. In any case, a persecution complex is not a reason for validity. Witchcraft, afterall, has been persecuted by Christianity for a good long time, but that gives it no more validity to me than Hinduism or Christianity.

Time is measured by the birth of Christ in Western societies which are predominantly Christian. The current calendars in use across the globe: Chinese, Christian, Indian, Islamic, Jewish, and more!

I contest your assertion that the bible predicts the future with 100% accuracy. I am, however, not a bible scholar and I didn't see this statement till after I posted my post, so I'll let someone else grab it since it'd take me a while to research the claim and my post is already out there. :-(

 

[AV1611VET]

1) The Veda's written origin date anywhere from 1500BC to 6,000BC depending on who you ask...

2) It's unknown how many authors the Veda had...

4)It's unknown what dialects it went through ... I think ...

6) Seriously though, if we assume they're both just books it's unknown...

My vote is Biblical Creationism --- thanks ---

 

[ragarth]

My vote is Biblical Creationism --- thanks ---

Well I could have guessed that! My objective wasn't to convince you, or teach you, but rather for you to teach me.

And btw AV, I apologize for being curt and jerkish with you earlier today, my pain pills were wearing off and I couldn't take more yet.

And about all the unknowns, with such an ancient text, you get a lot of those, it is afterall the oldest religious text known right now and certainly predates monotheism as we know it. It's said that the current monotheistic religions originate from Zoroastrianism, which dates from 600 BC to 3000 BC, a spry youngling compared to Hindus 1500 BC to 6000 BC or more!

 

[AV1611VET]

And btw AV, I apologize for being curt and jerkish with you earlier today, my pain pills were wearing off and I couldn't take more yet.

Not a problem, my friend --- I can be just as jerkish ---

Sorry you're on pain medication --- I know what it's like ---

 

[ragarth]

Not a problem, my friend --- I can be just as jerkish ---

Sorry you're on pain medication --- I know what it's like ---

Yeah, but it's fun being a bit loopy.

 

[Split Rock]

Several reasons in one:

1. It was written over a period of 1500 years
2. By over 40 authors

1. 
   
   I thought The Bible only had ONE author....

 

[ragarth]

I've never actually done much research on Hinduism before this. To be honest I chose Hinduism for this topic just because it was the first alternate religion with a written text to pop into my head (I have to admit I thought of the kama sutra first.), and I must say it wasn't a bad choice. The Vedas are really interesting! People claim they cover rudimentary Geometry, Algebra, and the concept of zero:

http://veda.wikidot.com/history-of-ganit
http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Mathematics_of_the_Vedas
http://www.robinstewart.com/personal/learn/indiamath/sutras.html

Check this out:
http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Mathematics_of_the_Vedas#First_usage_of_Pi

"In the Rigveda 1.105.17, a formula to find the area of a circle is mentioned showing that the Rishis knew of pi, approximating it to be equal to 22/7. It was used in the formula for the area of a circle"

 

[ragarth]

Here we go, this is how to get 31 decimal points of pi from the vedas:

http://www.pa.uky.edu/~ameya/misc/pii.html

and this shows Hindu's apparently knowing the speed of light in the 14th century:

http://hitxp.com/ved/28052007.htm

Remember, this is the internets, your mileage may vary.

 

[CraigBaugher]

Whose book was written first is irrelevant. The Holy bible clearly describes that many people around the world were worshipping false Gods and performing false practices, and it was because of these acts that the Father finally decided it was time to make himself, his word, and the truth known to the masses. Although, some knew the truth and had worshipped and followed the Lord from the very beginning.

So, why is Christianity superior to all others (which are mostly philosophical), is because it is the truth. Can I prove it? I can, but sadly it would require you to die, which you will someday, as will I. The difference being, if I am right (and I am), My energy source spirit I will continue to live in the kingdom of Heaven, and your's will not.

So...

 

[ragarth]

Whose book was written first is irrelevant. The Holy bible clearly describes that many people around the world were worshipping false Gods and performing false practices, and it was because of these acts that the Father finally decided it was time to make himself, his word, and the truth known to the masses. Although, some knew the truth and had worshipped and followed the Lord from the very beginning.

I can accept the logic of your first statement, but still you'd think that if pre-Jesus Christianity existed from the beginning of time, it'd leave a few traces. We may not be able to fully construct early european paganism, but we know of it, for instance.

So, why is Christianity superior to all others (which are mostly philosophical), is because it is the truth. Can I prove it? I can, but sadly it would require you to die, which you will someday, as will I. The difference being, if I am right (and I am), My energy source spirit I will continue to live in the kingdom of Heaven, and your's will not.

So...

Unfortunately for me it takes this thing called proof to define truth. The point of this thread is that many people claim the bible as an inerrant source of information, and so I want to see some facts backing this claim up against another set of books claimed to be an inerrant source of information. Since your claim is 'My holybook is truer than that other holybook, but I can't prove it because doing so relies on circular logic or referencing circumstances that are beyond mine or your ability to perceive without dying. So you have to take me at my word' is vacuous, it fails as proof.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Several reasons in one:

1. It was written over a period of 1500 years
2. By over 40 authors
3. On 3 continents
4. In 3 languages
5. Under various conditions: war, peace, civil unrest
6. Who held a variety of vocations from fisherman to king
7. And held various attitudes toward their Inspirer

And yet all 66 books go together like a hand in a glove.
And yet It is the best seller of all time.
And yet despite efforts by even the world's most powerful empire to eradicate It, It still stands.

Even time is measured by the appearance of the Son of Its Author.

It also contains the history of the world written --- in advance --- and so far, fulfilled with 100% accuracy.

Nice sales pitch AV. Care to tell me what, apart from English, the other two languages were? And do you really think that the earliest book of the bible dates no earlier than the 1st/2nd century AD (1611-1500)?

1) The Veda's written origin date anywhere from 1500BC to 6,000BC depending on who you ask, but were passed from generation to generation via oral tradition long before that. This addition of oral tradition makes it very difficult to date how long it took for the Vedas to develop, but it's certainly longer than 1500 years. This also means that the Veda are older than the Bible, Koran, or Torah

Just as is the case with the Veda where it depends on whom you ask, it just as well depends on whom you ask in the case of the bible. The number that AV is touting here, the 1500 years, comes from more the fundamentalist end of the spectrum of opinions. I think more mainstream and scholary opinions, have the earliest books of the bible around 600-700 BC maybe with the latest ones dating to the 2nd century AD, which gives an overall span 700-800 years.

2) It's unknown how many authors the Veda had, many believe that they were handed down directly from Brahma and inspired by Vishnu, but I'm not a believer in Gods and supernatural. There are unknown millinia of oral tradition behind the Vedas though, so every mouth uttering these ancient words is a potential author.

Again, AVs information comes from the more fundamentalist side of the issue. And I think the number of 66 authors is reached by simply counting the different names that the books carry. However, apart from the fundamentalists, there are only very, very few people who adhere to Mosaic authorship, or who think that every book that claims Pauline authorship acutually was written by Paul.

3) I'm sorry, my fudge fairy is tingling. This adds value how?

4) The Vedas were written in Vedic Sanskrit, a very ancient language indeed dating back to the Aryan civilization of the time. It's unknown what dialects it went through in it's early oral history, and I think oral history trumps written in terms of 'number of languages' games.

5) Same with the Vedas, no difference

6) The Vedas were passed down through oral history long before they were written down, many millenia ago. They even predate the creation of the Hindu caste system. It's believed that they have divine origin through Brahma. I didn't see a god listed directly in your list! Seriously though, if we assume they're both just books it's unknown how many people had a hand in the Veda's creation since it was at two points an oral tradition.

7) I have no clue how you devised this one. It could both speak for and against the value of the bible, so it's of little consequence to the discussion at hand.

The King James Version, which I think you prefer is written with fluidity and poeticism in mind. It's amazing what a group fo translators can accomplish in terms of fluidity, especially if they're very learned men. Now, how is it that the Vedas don't go together like a hand fits in a glove? After so many millenia and so much oral tradition, they seem pretty fluidic and fittably nice for each other to me!

As for it being a best seller, so you're letting public opinion vote your religious choices for you? That's a bit disengenious.

What empire tried to eliminate the bible, Rome? This period of christian persecution lasted around 320 some years. The British tried to wipe out Hinduism when they occupied India for almost 200 years. Further, during the Islamic occupation of the Indian subcontinent, the muslims persecuted and tried to wipe out the hindus. The Islamic persecution of the Hindus was even more savage than the british persecution, and this lasted from 800 AD to 1700 AD as one of the bloodiest conquests in written history. In any case, a persecution complex is not a reason for validity. Witchcraft, afterall, has been persecuted by Christianity for a good long time, but that gives it no more validity to me than Hinduism or Christianity.

Time is measured by the birth of Christ in Western societies which are predominantly Christian. The current calendars in use across the globe: Chinese, Christian, Indian, Islamic, Jewish, and more!

I contest your assertion that the bible predicts the future with 100% accuracy. I am, however, not a bible scholar and I didn't see this statement till after I posted my post, so I'll let someone else grab it since it'd take me a while to research the claim and my post is already out there. :-(

I don't think that you are alone in contesting the notion of 100% accuracy.

 

[ragarth]

Nice sales pitch AV. Care to tell me what, apart from English, the other two languages were? And do you really think that the earliest book of the bible dates no earlier than the 1st/2nd century AD (1611-1500)?



Just as is the case with the Veda where it depends on whom you ask, it just as well depends on whom you ask in the case of the bible. The number that AV is touting here, the 1500 years, comes from more the fundamentalist end of the spectrum of opinions. I think more mainstream and scholary opinions, have the earliest books of the bible around 600-700 BC maybe with the latest ones dating to the 2nd century AD, which gives an overall span 700-800 years.

Just as a defense of AV for accuracy's sake, he stated: "It was written over a period of 1500 years" Since the creation of the KJV bible, the bible hasn't changed to awfully much, and AV does use the King James Version as his preferred one. Therefore that 1500 year period feasibly ends during the periods in which the bible began seeing english translations: 1380AD to 1611AD depending on how tightly AV adheres to the idea of the KJV being a complete rewrite. This puts the beginning dates of the bible between 120BC and 111AD. If he's talking specifically about the new testament, this makes pretty decent sense, and is what I assumed he meant.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Check this out:
http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Mathematics_of_the_Vedas#First_usage_of_Pi

"In the Rigveda 1.105.17, a formula to find the area of a circle is mentioned showing that the Rishis knew of pi, approximating it to be equal to 22/7. It was used in the formula for the area of a circle"

Unfortunately they don't provide a quotation, so I tried to track it down myself, but I doubt that I have been successful:

17 Tṛta, when buried in the well, calls on the Gods to succour him.
That call of his Bṛhaspati heard and released him from distress. Mark this my woe, ye Earth and Heaven.​

Form here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv01105.htm

 

[consol]

Had AV and all of the other Christian posters here been raised by Hindu parents they would now be Hindus,
you know that, they know that, we all know that, but they insist on deliberately lying to themselves,
why they bang on about a religion they only believe because of fate is beyond me.

Why are there Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Mormon (and all of the others) children being raised in the US today?
why are they not being raised to be Christians? because their parents are not Christians, yours were, so you are.

But I keep forgetting, not one Christian poster here came from a Christian family, they ALL found their gods themselves,
and it seems that all of their parents were Atheists.

 

[juvenissun]

So... anyone have a valid argument as to why the bible is better than the Veda et al.?

It seems you know something about Veda. I do not know what it is.
But may be you can explain the relationship between the believers and the god(s) in Hinduism. If you do, please use simple and plain English.

It has to be different. After you explained it, then we can take a look which doctrine is "better".

 

[juvenissun]

Unfortunately for me it takes this thing called proof to define truth. The point of this thread is that many people claim the bible as an inerrant source of information, and so I want to see some facts backing this claim up against another set of books claimed to be an inerrant source of information.

OK, I guess you know what the Bible says about Adam and Eve. What does the Hinduism say about the origin of human?