Biblical Creationism and Self Deceit

[Givemeareason]

I think there is plenty of room to think Genesis was a literal event, and not a metaphor. Are you referring to the 6,000 year old earth thing? Cause that's been pretty tired out at this point and the Bible doesn't even definitively say that.

True but there isn't any evidence to indicate that. This thread was about the deceit and self deception posed by a belief system called Creationism which misrepresents itself and confuses Christians into very foolish views to the detriment of Christianity itself.

 

[Hakan101]

True but there isn't any evidence to indicate that. This thread was about the deceit and self deception posed by a belief system called Creationism which misrepresents itself and confuses Christians into very foolish views to the detriment of Christianity itself.

There is no evidence to indicate Genesis was not a literal event, scientifically or otherwise. What would the alternative be anyways?

 

[Givemeareason]

There is no evidence to indicate Genesis was not a literal event, scientifically or otherwise. What would the alternative be anyways?

That would be a matter of choice. You could simply choose not to be concerned about it. Or you could accept and reconcile with science if you needed an explanation. Or you could allow yourself to be drawn in by a group of fanatics posing as scientists who want to prove the literal account of Genesis. There may be other choices as well.

 

[Hakan101]

That would be a matter of choice. You could simply choose not to be concerned about it. Or you could accept and reconcile with science if you needed an explanation. Or you could allow yourself to be drawn in by a group of fanatics posing as scientists who want to prove the literal account of Genesis. There may be other choices as well.

I was asking what is the alternative of the Genesis account if not a literal one? Can you give examples?

 

[Givemeareason]

I was asking what is the alternative of the Genesis account if not a literal one? Can you give examples?

Many Christians view Genesis from an allegorical view which is how I see it. My view is that Genesis was written such that a very primitive people could have an understanding of creation. It is much too simple for most people of today.

 

[Smidlee]

Many Christians view Genesis from an allegorical view which is how I see it. My view is that Genesis was written such that a very primitive people could have an understanding of creation. It is much too simple for most people of today.

The irony is this thread deals with pride and self deceit and claim that people in the past was primitive. It's pride that causes the younger generation think the older generation was a butch of morons and that they have "arrived" to great understanding.

 

[Givemeareason]

The irony is this thread deals with pride and self deceit and claim that people in the past was primitive. It's pride that causes the younger generation think the older generation was a butch of morons and that they have "arrived" to great understanding.

You think goat herders from several thousand years ago would have understood cosmology? The Genesis story was just fine for back then. It just doesn't work today.

 

[Givemeareason]

If scientist have no trouble believing in their supernatural events I have no trouble believing the scriptures. I think Jones as a scientist did a good job supporting his creation view. I find a lot of evidence that supports creation.

I don't know why you guys even bother to try disputing evolution. You are going to have a lot more issues trying to advance your theory that the earth was somehow created before the sun.

 

[Richard Neal]

If I understand you correctly it sounds like you are advocating for an evolutionist paradigm while totally rejecting any possibility of the Special Creation we find in Genesis and throughout Scripture?...Even going as far as to ridicule Moses and anyone who believes in and teaches Special Creation...I would love the opportunity to educate you on the subject as a preponderance of the latest scientific discoveries - from a multitude of scientific disciplines, strongly suggest evolution is a failed theory and that Special Creation is, indeed, accurate...

 

[fat wee robin]

The Bible warns of self deception.

"We live in a world full of lies, and deceit comes from many sources. There are lying spirits who lead astray (1 Timothy 4:1); there are “evildoers and impostors” looking for dupes (2 Timothy 3:13); and, perhaps most insidious, we have ourselves to deal with. Self-deception is common in our fallen world. Our own hearts are deceitful—so much so that we easily fool ourselves (Jeremiah 17:9).Isaiah 44:20speaks of an idolater who is misled by his own “deluded heart.” The prophet Obadiah identifies arrogance as one of the roots of self-deception: “The pride of your heart has deceived you” (Obadiah 1:3). Human pride always blinds us to truth. It promises honor, but it delivers disgrace: “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall” (Proverbs 16:18)".
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-self-deception.html#ixzz3eIxT19EA

Yet there are many Christians who on prideful faith accept the idea that Genesis is the literal account of how Creation took place. And they believe a group of lying imposters of science claiming that this is true. All while they fail to confirm for themselves if they are being told the truth. They choose instead to see themselves as the persecuted people against the world while refusing to check it out themselves. And when they are shown to be wrong they close their eyes refusing to even see the evidence proving them wrong when it is right in front of them. They fail to recognize their own pride they have taken in their beliefs. They continue to argue on trying to punch holes in scientific facts while thinking they have valid arguments while failing to realize that even if all of human knowledge could be disproven it would not bring them one step closer to what they want to believe.

"The pride of your heart has deceived you." Obadiah 1:3

I very much indentify with what you have written and I think it is huge problem for
christians in the large churches ;It was more understandable in the past ,but now that we can learn so much form so many sources it is sad and worrying to realise that they have not taken advantage of searching for the truth themselves . They are like people clinging to a raft believing it will lead them to the shore ,but they are taking an awful risk as clergy make mistakes and cover them up .

 

[KarjamP]

If you're seriously considering becoming a Christian, why get so worked up on whether or not to believe the claims of the Young Earth Creationists? What's more important is whether or not you accept Christ as your savior, not how old planet Earth is.

It doesn't matter whether or not you believe in Old Earth Creationism (or any of its subtypes) or Young Earth Creationism. As long as the believer believes in the core truths of Christ, he's a Christian.

And no, no one's perfect. Heck, even the bible states that everyone sins and falls short on the glory of God (Romans 3:23). That is why Christ had sacrificed himself in the first place: to save us from sin. If you see pride in another Christian, take that as proof that they're not perfect. After all, "pride" is one of the seven deadly sins.

 

[fat wee robin]

You are admitting you have no evidence for your supposed theory. Why do you keep trying to switch the topic then?

The problem of arguing with someone who has not personally experienced God ,and sees how He works in His creation is that you are arguing from a total lack of evidence of God's creatvity .For me now, I would not need evidence as I know the person,and have experienced miracles . The evidence which I have says that when the creature called 'lucifer' ,an aquarian tried to take over creation and heaven,he was banished down to earth.When Adam and Eve joined him there, God had to find a way to 'evolve' them back up as they had become as low as animals .What you think you see as evolution of humanity from animals is in part correct ,but they were created humans first.

 

[KarjamP]

The problem of arguing with someone who has not personally experienced God ,and sees how He works in His creation is that you are arguing from a total lack of evidence of God's creatvity .For me now, I would not need evidence as I know the person,and have experienced miracles . The evidence which I have says that when the creature called 'lucifer' ,an aquarian tried to take over creation and heaven,he was banished down to earth.When Adam and Eve joined him there, God had to find a way to 'evolve' them back up as they had become as low as animals .What you think you see as evolution of humanity from animals is in part correct ,but they were created humans first.

How's the story of Lucifer and man's fall related to evolution? Using an explanation that brings out more questions than it does answers is not the way to prove anything.

 

[1213]

The Bible warns of self deception.

...

"The pride of your heart has deceived you." Obadiah 1:3

Hmmm… it seems to me that it is rather evolutionists that have problem with pride, because there is no real evidence that proves evolution theory correct (Evolution theory means in this that all species have developed form single species over very long time).

If evolution theory, or new mother earth cult, is correct, we should see things happens as evolution theory suggests. For example we should be able to breed mouse to water animal, or something like that. All real things in nature can be observed and usually also repeated, if we want to call them scientific and not metaphysical.

In my opinion the name of science is discredited by metaphysical ideas like evolution theory, in the above meaning.

However, I think some ideas that are connected to evolution theory can be correct and they are not in contradiction with the Bible, for example heredity and genes. After all, if we believe what the Bible tells, in the Ark, there were 8 people. Yet today we have many different looking people. So clearly it is possible that some changes can happen in heredity, if we believe what the Bible tells. Different thing is, is it really possible that for example fish could become mouse or something similar. I don’t think we have any good evidence for that kind of change.

But anyway, it is good warning, pride is deceiving thing.

 

[klatu]

The Bible warns of self deception.
"The pride of your heart has deceived you." Obadiah 1:3

I recently completed a study of over three hundred references to self deception. These have been taken not just from the canonical scriptures but also from the much greater collection of non canonical matrial including the recent discoveries of Nag Hammadi Library and Dead Sea Scrolls. And the overwhelming character of this material to warn not only self deception but of being deceived by others on the nature of God's Word. The problem with so much warning is ask why the means to comprehend and expose this counterfeit word does not exist or has not been revealed? As all of the existing faith traditions are theological, who can be true if no one is false? Or does that mean that all might be false. That theology is not a valid human intellectual endeavor! Does theology only exist because nothing has been revealed. And then what if a second coming takes place and deliverers a message antagonistic to theological tradition? Is that the very nature of what any 'last judgement' we be? History has yet to draw that line. But one thing is clear. some one must be wrong! There must be individuals, traditions, even institutions retailing a false salvation to a gullible world. And I wouldn't wish to be in their shoes when the Lord decides it's time to sort it out.

 

[Givemeareason]

If I understand you correctly it sounds like you are advocating for an evolutionist paradigm while totally rejecting any possibility of the Special Creation we find in Genesis and throughout Scripture?...Even going as far as to ridicule Moses and anyone who believes in and teaches Special Creation...I would love the opportunity to educate you on the subject as a preponderance of the latest scientific discoveries - from a multitude of scientific disciplines, strongly suggest evolution is a failed theory and that Special Creation is, indeed, accurate...

I am not advocating anything other than trying to expose the deceit of creationism. This has nothing to do with evolution. Was the sun created along with all the stars after the earth was created?

 

[Givemeareason]

I very much indentify with what you have written and I think it is huge problem for
christians in the large churches ;It was more understandable in the past ,but now that we can learn so much form so many sources it is sad and worrying to realise that they have not taken advantage of searching for the truth themselves . They are like people clinging to a raft believing it will lead them to the shore ,but they are taking an awful risk as clergy make mistakes and cover them up .

And the wiser Christians have jumped the raft.

 

[KarjamP]

Hmmm… it seems to me that it is rather evolutionists that have problem with pride, because there is no real evidence that proves evolution theory correct (Evolution theory means in this that all species have developed form single species over very long time).

If evolution theory, or new mother earth cult, is correct, we should see things happens as evolution theory suggests. For example we should be able to breed mouse to water animal, or something like that. All real things in nature can be observed and usually also repeated, if we want to call them scientific and not metaphysical.

In my opinion the name of science is discredited by metaphysical ideas like evolution theory, in the above meaning.

However, I think some ideas that are connected to evolution theory can be correct and they are not in contradiction with the Bible, for example heredity and genes. After all, if we believe what the Bible tells, in the Ark, there were 8 people. Yet today we have many different looking people. So clearly it is possible that some changes can happen in heredity, if we believe what the Bible tells. Different thing is, is it really possible that for example fish could become mouse or something similar. I don’t think we have any good evidence for that kind of change.

But anyway, it is good warning, pride is deceiving thing.

You're basically proving the point of the original poster that any topic related to evolution eventually gets derailed into an argument on whether or not it's true. In fact, I nearly replied with a refute until I realized what I was doing.

 

[Givemeareason]

If you're seriously considering becoming a Christian, why get so worked up on whether or not to believe the claims of the Young Earth Creationists? What's more important is whether or not you accept Christ as your savior, not how old planet Earth is.

It doesn't matter whether or not you believe in Old Earth Creationism (or any of its subtypes) or Young Earth Creationism. As long as the believer believes in the core truths of Christ, he's a Christian.

And no, no one's perfect. Heck, even the bible states that everyone sins and falls short on the glory of God (Romans 3:23). That is why Christ had sacrificed himself in the first place: to save us from sin. If you see pride in another Christian, take that as proof that they're not perfect. After all, "pride" is one of the seven deadly sins.

As I have said before I don't like seeing Jesus being drug through the muck and his image damaged.

 

[redleghunter]

The Bible warns of self deception.

"We live in a world full of lies, and deceit comes from many sources. There are lying spirits who lead astray (1 Timothy 4:1); there are “evildoers and impostors” looking for dupes (2 Timothy 3:13); and, perhaps most insidious, we have ourselves to deal with. Self-deception is common in our fallen world. Our own hearts are deceitful—so much so that we easily fool ourselves (Jeremiah 17:9).Isaiah 44:20speaks of an idolater who is misled by his own “deluded heart.” The prophet Obadiah identifies arrogance as one of the roots of self-deception: “The pride of your heart has deceived you” (Obadiah 1:3). Human pride always blinds us to truth. It promises honor, but it delivers disgrace: “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall” (Proverbs 16:18)".
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-self-deception.html#ixzz3eIxT19EA

Yet there are many Christians who on prideful faith accept the idea that Genesis is the literal account of how Creation took place. And they believe a group of lying imposters of science claiming that this is true. All while they fail to confirm for themselves if they are being told the truth. They choose instead to see themselves as the persecuted people against the world while refusing to check it out themselves. And when they are shown to be wrong they close their eyes refusing to even see the evidence proving them wrong when it is right in front of them. They fail to recognize their own pride they have taken in their beliefs. They continue to argue on trying to punch holes in scientific facts while thinking they have valid arguments while failing to realize that even if all of human knowledge could be disproven it would not bring them one step closer to what they want to believe.

"The pride of your heart has deceived you." Obadiah 1:3

Interesting use of Scriptures to support your thesis, yet for some reason Genesis has it all wrong. You make a lot of assumptions with substantiation. Are you implying the verses you quoted as divinely inspired but somehow Genesis was not? And what exactly have scientists proven in the ways to disprove there is One God who is the uncreated Creator? If you can provide some of this witness testimony from millions if not billions of years ago, please show us. Thanks.