Biblical Content and/or Christian Interpretation II: Monitorial

O.F.F. · Dec 1, 2010

Wayne said:
Freemasonry is neither a religion, a political organization, nor a social club. It interferes with none of these. It has for its foundations the basic principles of the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man. It teaches a belief in a Supreme Being, in the immortality of the soul, and that the Holy Bible is the inestimable gift of God to man as the rule and guide for his faith and practice. (Lodge System of Masonic Education, NC page 14)

Before you rushed to give credence to your neighboring jurisdiction, had you read the page just before this quote, you would have seen that they define Freemasonry by the words of Albert Pike:

Freemasonry is the subjugation of the human that is in man by the Divine; the conquest of the appetites and the passions by the Moral Sense and the Reason; a continual effort, struggle, and warfare of the Spiritual against the Material and Sensual. (Lodge System of Masonic Education, NC page 13)

The implications of this definition amount to profound heresy from a biblical perspective. First of all a mature Christian should immediately recognize that this definition supplants the power of the Holy Spirit within the believer who is the real subjugation of the flesh (human, sinful nature) in man, NOT Freemasonry. Furthermore, it undermines and contradicts the Holy Spirit's power to give us victory over spiritual warfare and the conquest of our fleshly desires.

Secondly a wise reader, familiar with Wayne's deceptive tactic of just posting material that supports his positioning Freemasonry as compatible with Christianity, would explore the context in which Pike makes this claim. And, in doing so they would have found more profound heresy. But to Wayne's credit, had he not posted what he did in the first place, we would have never known how they really define Freemasonry:

You have heard more than one definition of freemasonry. The truest and the most significant you have yet to hear. It is taught to the entered Apprentice, the Fellow-Craft, and the Master, and it is taught in every Degree through which you have advanced to this. It is a definition of what Freemasonry is, of what its purposes and its very essence and spirit are; and it has for every one of us the force and sanctity of a divine law, and imposes on every one of us a solemn obligation.

It is symbolized and taught, to the Apprentice as well as to you, by the COMPASS and the SQUARE; upon which, as well as upon the Book of your Religion and the Book of the law of the Scottish Freemasonry, you have taken so many obligations. As a Knight, you have been taught it by the Swords, the symbols of HONOR and DUTY, on which you have taken your vows: it was taught you by the BALANCE, the symbol of all Equilibrium, and by the CROSS, the symbol of devotedness and self-sacrifice; but all that these teach and contain is taught and contained, for Entered Apprentice, Knight, and Prince alike, by the Compass and the Square.

For the Apprentice, the points of the Compass are beneath the Square. For the Fellow-Craft, one is above and one beneath. For the Master, both are dominant, and have rule, control, and empire over the symbol of the earthly and the material.

FREEMASONRY is the subjugation of the Human that is in man by the Divine; the Conquest of the Appetites and Passions by the Moral Sense and the Reason; a continual effort, struggle, and warfare of the Spiritual against the Material and Sensual. That victory, when it has been achieved and secured, and the conqueror may rest upon his shield and wear the well-earned laurels, is the true HOLY EMPIRE.

To achieve it, the Mason must first attain a solid conviction, founded upon reason, that he hath within him a spiritual nature, a soul that is not to die when the body is dissolved, but is to continue to exist and to advance toward perfection through all the ages of eternity, and to see more and more clearly, as it draws nearer unto God, the Light of the Divine Presence. This the Philosophy of the Ancient and Accepted Rite teaches him; and it encourages him to persevere by helping him to believe that his free will is entirely consistent with God's Omnipotence and Omniscience...

Morals & Dogma, SUBLIME PRINCE OF THE ROYAL SECRET "32°" page 854-855

According to this Freemasonry not only supplants the Holy Spirit, it supplants the Body of Christ as the "true" Holy Empire; and it teaches Masons to believe that their free will is entirely consistent with God’s Omnipotence and Omniscience. How much more heretical can it get than that? If Freemasonry and its Grand Lodges are as "Christian" as Wayne would lead us to believe, then why would they define it in such an antithetical way? It makes all that talk Wayne posted about the "Holy Bible" sound more like a front to trick naive Christians into joining the Lodge. Discerning saints, who understand Masonic teaching, know that Satan uses Freemasonry as a tool to cause professing Christians (like Jim and Wayne) to compromise the faith.

Wayne said:
”As to religion, it is required that a petitioner believe in God and in Immortality; that he recognizes the Holy Bible as the rule and guide of his faith. (Lodge System of Masonic Education, NC”

This is a new wrinkle for me, too. Apparently this states that in NC, it is a requirement that a petitioner recognize the Holy Bible as the rule and guide of his faith. In other words, before taking a single degree, he has to profess the Holy Bible to be the rule and guide of his faith. (emphasis added)

Again, since you are "seminary-educated" and not an “ignorant pastor,” you either failed to confirm this through proper research, or you are deliberately lying. An educated pastor knows he should do proper research to avoid making false claims. The NC 2010 Code states thirteen qualifications for Masonic membership “before taking a single degree” and NOT ONE of them has to do with professing the Holy Bible to be the rule and guide of his faith.

THE CODE OF THE GRAND LODGE OF ANCIENT FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONS OF NORTH CAROLINA

CHAPTER 66

Petitioners Qualifications

REG. 66-1 QUALIFICATIONS.

Each petitioner for the degrees in Masonry must possess certain qualifications which are as follows.

1. He must be a believer in God and in immortality. A petitioner who is unable or unwilling to express a belief in the existence of God lacks an essential qualification for the degrees in Masonry. In every such case the fee shall be returned with the information that he cannot become a Mason in this Grand Jurisdiction. [63-6; 67-8; 73-6.5; 75-8.3; 78-2.2.C; (Preamble I)].

2. He must be a man free born.

3. He must have the senses of a man, especially those of hearing, seeing, and feeling.

4. He must be of mental worth, sound mind, upright life, and good morals. [73-6.5; 75-8.3; 78-2.2.C].

5. He must possess the ability to earn a livelihood.

6. He must be not less than eighteen years of age at the time his petition is signed. The Grand Master may not waive the provisions of the law requiring an applicant for the degrees to be eighteen years of age at the time the petition is signed. (This subdivision amended, effective January 1, 2003)

7. He must be able to speak and understand the language of the ritual. [65-3.3; 71-24].

8. He must have resided within the state of North Carolina at least six months immediately preceding the date of his petition. [42-7.1; 42-9; 66-3]. (This section amended, effective 1/1/2006 )

9. He must have no physical disability which would prevent him from earning a livelihood or would make him a burden or a charge upon the Craft.

10. He must not have been rejected by any regular lodge in this jurisdiction, or in any other jurisdiction recognized by this Grand Lodge, within six months immediately preceding the date of his petition. [42-16].

11. He must not be under sentence or judgment for violation of any law of the land involving moral turpitude. His right to citizenship must have been restored in the event it was lost by such conviction and sentence. [73-6.5; 75-8.3; 78-2.2.C; 86-2.28; 101-5.4.B].

12. He must not be engaged in any enterprise, business, or profession which would constitute a Masonic offense if engaged in by a Mason. [73-6.5; 75-8.3; 78-2.2.C].

13. He must not have received either an undesirable or dishonorable discharge from the Armed Forces of the United States. If separation from the Armed Forces was under either of the proceeding classifications, satisfactory evidence must be submitted to verify the discharge has been changed by legal authority to at least a General Discharge.

ChristianMasonJim · Dec 1, 2010

From the preface to Morals & Dogma on Albert Pike and the book itself:

In preparing this work [Morals and Dogma], the Grand Commander [Albert Pike] has been about equally Author and Compiler; since he has extracted quite half its contents from the works of the best writers and most philosophic or eloquent thinkers. Perhaps it would have been better and more acceptable if he had extracted more and written less.

Still, perhaps half of it is his own; and, in incorporating here the thoughts and words of others, he has continually changed and added to the language, often intermingling, in the same sentences, his own words with theirs. It not being intended for the world at large, he has felt at liberty to make, from all accessible sources, a Compendium of the Morals and Dogma of the Rite, to re-mould sentences, change and add to words and phrases, combine them with his own, and use them as if they were his own, to be dealt with at his pleasure and so availed of as to make the whole most valuable for the purposes intended. He claims, therefore, little of the merit of authorship, and has not cared to distinguish his own from that which he has taken from other sources, being quite willing that every portion of the book, in turn, may be regarded as borrowed from some old and better writer.

The teachings of these Readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyond the realm of Morality into those of other domains of Thought and Truth. The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite uses the word "Dogma" in its true sense, of doctrine, or teaching; and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound. It is only required of him that he shall weigh what is taught, and give it fair hearing and unprejudiced judgment. Of course, the ancient theosophic and philosophic speculations are not embodied as part of the doctrines of the Rite; but because it is of interest and profit to know what the Ancient Intellect thought upon these subjects, and because nothing so conclusively proves the radical difference between our human and the animal nature, as the capacity of the human mind to entertain such speculations in regard to itself and the Deity. But as to these opinions themselves, we may say, in the words of the learned Canonist, Ludovicus Gomez: "Opiniones secundum varietatem temporum senescant et intermoriantur, aliæque diversæ vel prioribus contrariæ renascantur et deinde pubescant."

I continue to wait for any anti-Mason to show how my involvement in Freemasonry is causing me to stumble in my Christian walk.

O.F.F. · Dec 1, 2010

Jim said:
From the preface to Morals & Dogma on Albert Pike and the book itself

Who cares; the Grand Lodge of North Carolina has accepted Pike's definition of Freemasonry found in Morals & Dogma, so your point in posting the preface is moot. YOU may not accept his definition, but they do. You are just a Mason, with no power or authority. They are a Grand Lodge with the power to accept his definition as authoritative.

Jim said:
I continue to wait for any anti-Mason to show how my involvement in Freemasonry is causing me to stumble in my Christian walk.

We've already shown the anti-Christian how Freemasonry is a stumbling block to the Christian faith, but like most anti-Christians, they are too stubborn and brainwashed by Masonic heresy to listen.

Skip Sampson · Dec 1, 2010

O.F.F. said:
The NC 2010 Code states thirteen qualifications for Masonic membership before taking a single degree and NOT ONE of them has to do with professing the Holy Bible to be the rule and guide of his faith.

Great catch, Mike. Wayne is so caught up in the past that he can't see what's going on around him today. I don't think he'll ever learn to complete his research before posting his notes. Maybe he just doesn't care. Cordially, Skip.

Skip Sampson · Dec 1, 2010

ChristianMasonJim said:
I continue to wait for any anti-Mason to show how my involvement in Freemasonry is causing me to stumble in my Christian walk.

That's an easy one. You've compromised your Christian witness by joining an 'exclusive' club, which has a racist history and which promises salvation to men without requiring an expressed faith in Jesus. It also denigrates the Bible by equating it to false books written by charlatans and states that belief in any 'god' is ok. Quite simply, you've chosen to lie down with dogs. The unsaved, curious about what a Christian is and does, sees you doing all that and decides that Christianity is no better or worse than all other religion, so he doesn't have to buy into the exclusive claims that Christianity has.

A thought for you: during the next training night at the Lodge, teach Wayne's 'Christian' view of the Perfect Ashlar and let us kow how well it was received. Cordially, Skip.

Rev Wayne · Dec 1, 2010

The implications of this definition amount to profound heresy from a biblical perspective. First of all a mature Christian should immediately recognize that this definition supplants the power of the Holy Spirit within the believer who is the real subjugation of the flesh (human, sinful nature) in man, NOT Freemasonry.

I'm beginning to think your biggest problem is you don't know how to read. I don't know how you came up reading this as Freemasonry somehow "supplanting the power of the Holy Spirit." The statement actually AFFIRMS the power of the Holy Spirit, and attributes that subjugation to "the Divine." The statement reads "Freemasonry is. . . " That makes it a definition. To show what it says in a simpler way so that you might be able to understand it, let's render it like a dictionary definition would be arranged:

Freemasonry: the subjugation of the human that is in man by the Divine.

What it says is plain: In Freemasonry, the subjugation of that within us which is human, is accomplished by the Divine--in other words, the Holy Spirit, for there is no other divine agency within.

Secondly a wise reader, familiar with Wayne's deceptive tactic of just posting material that supports his positioning Freemasonry as compatible with Christianity, would explore the context in which Pike makes this claim. And, in doing so they would have found more profound heresy. But to Wayne's credit, had he not posted what he did in the first place, we would have never known how they really define Freemasonry:

Nope, the only "tactic" anyone will notice, is the antimason tactic of using any excuse they can find to avoid talking about what posted, and appeal to something off the grid. Pike is not the author of the NC LSME. I was gonna say you dropped the ball, but you're so far out in left field the ball will never reach you.

And you clearly are engaging in deception, not exposing it on my part, as you pretend. You are trying to substitute your own opinion for what was actually stated in the booklet. They did not even use the definition by Pike, they simply referred to it. The definition they employed was there on the same page, you COULDN'T have missed it; therefore your deception is deliberate--either that or you didn't even bother to read the rest of the page, and thus disregarded the context of the remarks.

What is this mysterious art we call Freemasonry? There has been a great number of definitions offered, but one of the simplest and most direct is used by our English brethren:

"Freemasonry is a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated with symbols."
The idea of teaching by symbols and allegories is not new; all great teachers have more or less followed this system.

You also left off the comments immediately following the Pike comment, which clearly added,

"Of course, these definitions need a great deal of explaining."

And, of course, PART of that "explaining" follows those comments, is the very statement with which you began this little trip down straw man alley:

It teaches a belief in a Supreme Being, in the immortality of the soul, and that the Holy Bible is the inestimable gift of God to man as the rule and guide for his faith and practice.

Now, since the LSME booklet EXPLAINS BOTH comments, by stating that the Bible is the "rule and guide for raith and practice," it's pretty disingenuous of you to try to turn this thing on its head and thus subjugate everything that was just stated, to your own malformed opinions.

According to this Freemasonry not only supplants the Holy Spirit, it supplants the Body of Christ as the "true" Holy Empire; and it teaches Masons to believe that their free will is entirely consistent with Gods Omnipotence and Omniscience.

"According to THIS"--yeah, sure, according to Pike opinions that were IN NO WAY a part of the statements in the LSME booklet.

(1) This is not about Pike, that's YOUR straw man substitution; (2) Can't help but notice that the LSME booklet did NOT quote that second line; (3) nor did the LSME in their comments explaining the definitions, make even the least MENTION of that line from Pike; therefore (4) since it's not about Pike, didn't cite the line you criticize, did not explain it by any appeal to that comment in Pike, and since they DO explain it by appealing to the Bible as the rule and guide for faith and practice:

There is simply nothing there to warrant this ridiculous, ill-considered attempt to substitute a straw man that you CAN knock over, for the statement that posted, which you CANNOT. C'mon, Mike, don't you realize that EVERYBODY knows by now how the straw man game works, and won't buy what you're trying to sell?

The NC 2010 Code states thirteen qualifications for Masonic membership before taking a single degree and NOT ONE of them has to do with professing the Holy Bible to be the rule and guide of his faith.

Hey, Mike? Hey, man, we're over HERE! You know, discussing the North Carolina LSME booklet? Maybe when you get time, you can drop whatever you're doing over there with the NC Code group, and come on over and join us, we'd love to get your input.

I was citing the NC LMSE booklet, which DOES state this to be so. Let's take another look at it, you don't seem to comprehend simple English:

As to religion, it is required that a petitioner believe in God and in Immortality; that he recognizes the Holy Bible as the rule and guide of his faith. (Lodge System of Masonic Education, NC)

You see it, but do you read what it says? Apparently not. So let's unpack it as plainly as possible.

The sentence says "it is required. . ." You do know what "required" means, right?

required (r -kw rd )</SPAN>

1. Needed, essential;
2. Obligatory

(American Heritage Dictionary, 2000)

Two things are stated in this particular sentence to be "essential" or "obligatory." They are easily discernible in this particular construction, just follow the "that's":

1. that a petitioner believe in God and in Immortality
2. that he recognizes the Holy Bible as the rule and guide of his faith.

Sorry, but you do NOT refute that by appealing to another Grand Lodge source as if to counter it. North Carolina's LSME booklet CLEARLY states this to be a REQUIREMENT. Also, I do not see anything in the Code that would preclude this statement as found in the LSME booklet.

How you deal with that is your own problem, but you certainly have not refuted it by attempting to substitute statements from elsewhere.

Besides, the basis of your appeal was, "look at this list, it's not there." That's called an argument from absence. It's also known as a logical fallacy. In other words, no argument, no logic. Which goes no where.

So tell us, Mike, are you going to lie if I ask you the obvious question:

Do you not find the following statement, when you look at North Carolina's LSME booklet?

As to religion, it is required that a petitioner believe in God and in Immortality; that he recognizes the Holy Bible as the rule and guide of his faith.

I think the whole "Code says this" straw man was a deliberate attempt to avoid dealing with this in any straightforward fashion. Your subterfuge is rejected, let's get a real response from you, instead of the usual avoidance.

Rev Wayne · Dec 1, 2010

A thought for you: during the next training night at the Lodge, teach Wayne's 'Christian' view of the Perfect Ashlar and let us kow how well it was received.

Yeah, that might be a good one. After all, where did you think I first heard about it?

Rev Wayne · Dec 1, 2010

Who cares; the Grand Lodge of North Carolina has accepted Pike's definition of Freemasonry found in Morals & Dogma, so your point in posting the preface is moot. YOU may not accept his definition, but they do.

Well, Mike, since we've had the real story posted now, and since we now know they began with a definition other than Pike's; since the bulk of your argument depended upon material from Pike that never was part of the LSME comments in the first place; and since we know from the context, that after saying the definition needed explaining, they never again really referenced Pike, thereby exposing your deception; we can safely say that your whole point in replying to Jim as you did, is less than moot.

We've already shown the anti-Christian how Freemasonry is a stumbling block to the Christian faith, but like most anti-Christians, they are too stubborn and brainwashed by Masonic heresy to listen.

It's already been shown what a deception you put forth, and your straw man was exposed for what it is. Everything that was posted from the LSME booklet, you sidestepped:

The first quote, you sidestepped with a Pike substitution;

The second quote, you sidestepped with an NC Code substitution;

The third quote, you dodged completely, and made no comment at all.

Such avoidance clearly shows an unwillingness to honestly engage the statements as they appear in this source.

Rev Wayne · Dec 1, 2010

Great catch, Mike. Wayne is so caught up in the past that he can't see what's going on around him today. I don't think he'll ever learn to complete his research before posting his notes. Maybe he just doesn't care.

Past? Whatever gave you that impression? All I have to say to that is, so far Mike has gotten nothing correct but the page numbers. We'll see how he fares from here.

Rev Wayne · Dec 1, 2010

The Bible's place in NC Masonry is solid, even more so, from what I can tell, than the solid position of it as already evidenced in SC. For example, from their Grand Lodge periodical:

RALEIGH The Bible on the altar was open. It was a small, but oh so significant sign.
AF & AM Masons have made three previous visits to the Annual Communication of North Carolinas Prince Hall Grand Lodge. Those three visits were all made during the public portion of their meeting.
On September 26, our contingent was welcomed while the lodge was tiled. It was our first visit since we recognized the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of North Carolina. (NC Mason, Nov./Dec. 2008, by Ric Carter, editor)

"Oh so significant?" Gee, I wonder why that would be so significant? I'll bet I know why: it probably has to do with the wording of the presentation of the furniture to the newly-installed Master of a lodge. From the NC Officer's Handbook:

Worshipful Master, you will now receive the furniture and various implements used in your lodge. They are emblematic of our conduct in life, and on this occasion are carefully enumerated.

The Holy Writings, that Great Light in Masonry, will guide you to all truth; it will direct your path to the temple of happiness, and point out to you the whole duty of man. However men may differ in creed, yet all men agree that within the pages of the Holy Bible are found those principles which lay the foundation upon which to build a righteous life. Freemasonry would take all men by the hand and, leading them to its altar, would point to the open Bible and urge each faithfully to direct his steps through life by the light he shall find therein. If, from our sacred altar, the atheist or irreligious man should ever wrest thisbook and thus remove, or even obscure, the Great Light of Freemasonry, that light whichhas been for centuries the rule and guide of all masons, then we could no longer claim the proud title and rank of master mason. As long as that sacred light shines upon our altar,as long as it illumines and brightens the pathway of the craftsman by the golden rays oftruth; so long will Freemasonry live and shed its beneficent influence among men. Guard,then, my brother, this sacred book as you guard your life. Defend it as you would defend the flag of your country. Live according to its sublime precepts; govern yourself that you may be able to govern others; learn first that you may be able to teach; for justice, moderation, and decorum should mark the acts of an upright man. (p. 16-17)

Yet Mike tries to pretend he is not aware of these things as he offers his straw man response to materials from their Grand Lodge. And Skip continues to call anything I post "outdated" even when practically everything posted of late has been current. I would think by now that mantra is wearing pretty thin. He has made it pretty plain that it doesn't really matter what the objection is as long as he posts one so he can fool someone into thinking he has made a "rebuttal"; and he really doesn't even care what objection he tries, apparently, since he continues to sing his one-note song despite its continued irrelevance.

O.F.F. · Dec 1, 2010

Wayne said:
What it says is plain: In Freemasonry, the subjugation of that within us which is human, is accomplished by the Divine--in other words, the Holy Spirit, for there is no other divine agency within.

It doesn't say that in the least! And with this straw man you've just conjured up, you are now implying that ALL Masons (Christians and non-Christians alike) have the Holy Spirit living within them. What heresy, coming from one who claims to be a Christian pastor!!!

Wayne said:
"Freemasonry is. . . " That makes it a definition.

That's right, and the definition they gave was:

Freemasonry IS the subjugation of the human that is in man by the Divine; the Conquest of the Appetites and Passions by the Moral Sense and the Reason; a continual effort, struggle, and warfare of the Spiritual against the Material and Sensual.

Your problem is, not only in understanding what Freemasonry is, but also understanding the definition of subjugation; which Webster's defines as:

1. : to bring under control and governance as a subject : conquer.
2. : to make submissive : subdue

As it applies to our discussion at hand, that means Freemasonry is to subdue the "human" aspects in man, namely "the Appetites and Passions." As it says, "a continual effort, struggle, and warfare of the Spiritual against the Material and Sensual."

Wayne said:
The definition they employed was there on the same page, you COULDN'T have missed it; therefore your deception is deliberate

No the deception on your part is deliberate; they said, "There has been a great number of definitions offered" and they provided two; I simply elaborated on one of them.

Wayne said:
You also left off the comments immediately following the Pike comment, which clearly added, "Of course, these definitions need a great deal of explaining."

It wasn't necessary to include the comment, because I took the liberty to allow the context of Pike's definition explain itself.

And, of course, PART of that "explaining" follows those comments

Indeed, but not what you posted. What immediately follows that comment is this:

Yet Masonry is, when clearly understood, a great worldwide system of emancipation, in that it teaches its initiates to liberate themselves from the slavery of all forms of ancient superstitions, obsolete creeds, and beliefs that do violence to the reasoning faculties of every intelligent, enlightened, and untrammeled human mind. (Lodge System of Masonic Education, NC page 13 & 14)

Those aren't the words of Pike, but the words of the Grand Lodge of North Carolina itself, which imply that all other religious creeds, including Christianity are "obsolete." But the religion of Freemasonry, which Pike's definition clearly describes, is what they suggest as "a great worldwide system of emancipation" from the bondage of such creeds; including Christianity.

Wayne said:
I was citing the NC LMSE booklet, which DOES state this to be so. Let's take another look at it, you don't seem to comprehend simple English:

”As to religion, it is required that a petitioner believe in God and in Immortality; that he recognizes the Holy Bible as the rule and guide of his faith. (Lodge System of Masonic Education, NC)”

You see it, but do you read what it says? Apparently not. So let's unpack it as plainly as possible.

The sentence says "it is required. . ." You do know what "required" means, right?

There goes more of your deception, or are you really that Masonically ignorant? C'mon, Wayne, don't you realize that EVERYBODY who understands the governance of Freemasonry knows that it is done by the Code (constitution and by-laws) of a Grand Lodge; NOT its "System of Masonic Education." In fact, that very same publication states that "the lodge is governed by the Grand Lodge Book of Constitutions, called THE CODE."

But in your deceitfulness, you want readers to believe that a booklet dated 1969 supersedes their 2010 CODE. And you have the audacity to tell me to get real. If you continue to insist that it does, I will PROVE YOU ARE A LIAR AGAIN, by personally emailing them to confirm that NO candidate for Masonry in NC has to AFFIRM THE HOLY BIBLE as their rule and guide of his faith. Heck, I work down the street from the Grand Lodge and can make a personal visit to do the same.

However, so that readers can see just how deceitful you really are, let me provide links to both the booklet you are hanging yourself with, and the 2010 NC CODE:

The NC Lodge System of Masonic Education Fifth Edition 1969

The NC 2010 Code

Rev Wayne · Dec 1, 2010

It doesn't say that in the least! And with this straw man you've just conjured up, you are now implying that ALL Masons (Christians and non-Christians alike) have the Holy Spirit living within them.

Nice try, Sherlock, but you seem to forget that with a statement in their teaching manual which says a belief in the Bible as the rule and guide of faith and practice, is REQUIRED, you can NOT make a false accusation about "Christians and non-Christians alike." Apparently there either aren't any non-Christians in their lodges, or everyone has that requirement regardless of his faith, because it's right there in their teaching material. Or had you forgotten, that this is teaching material? You are so set on making blustery denials in place of genuine response, you seem to think readers will ignore the most obvious facts that get in the way of your denials.

That makes it a definition.
That's right, and the definition they gave was:

That's just it, what you went with WASN'T the definition they went with, as clearly shown. Go back, and this time try READING my post before responding, it'll save you looking foolish with these errors, as well as saving me from having to respond to them twice.

As it applies to our discussion at hand, that means Freemasonry is to subdue the "human" aspects in man, namely "the Appetites and Passions." As it says, "a continual effort, struggle, and warfare of the Spiritual against the Material and Sensual."

And as the LSME BOOKLET said, rather than your continual false substitution of PIKE, this is done through the DIVINE.

"There has been a great number of definitions offered" and they provided two; I simply elaborated on one of them.

And you simply elaborated on the wrong one. THEY did NOT elaborate at ALL upon the one you did, they went with the other. I already pointed that out in my post. I refer you to it again, with the same suggestion that you actually read it.

It wasn't necessary to include the comment, because I took the liberty . . .

And as I pointed out, your "liberty" did not end there, you took the liberty of introducing, as always, a whole string of stuff that was not even part of the LSME statement.

But in your deceitfulness, you want readers to believe that a booklet dated 1969 supersedes their 2010 CODE.

Who said anything about 1969? I sure didn't. What I asked YOU to tell us was:

DOES THIS OR DOES THIS NOT APPEAR IN THE LSME-NC BOOKLET AS I STATED?

If you can stop for ONE MINUTE trying to substitute the Code for what was quoted from the booklet, to answer the question, I sure would appreciate it. Otherwise, I am going to take your hemming and hawing, and your continued evasion of the question, as a tacit admission that it DOES, and that you will go to any lengths to AVOID answering one simple little question.

Not that all that really matters, since I've already shown in my previous post, that the Bible is affirmed in the ritual for the installation of a Master, when he is presented with the furniture:

Worshipful Master, you will now receive the furniture and various implements used in your lodge. They are emblematic of our conduct in life, and on this occasion are carefully enumerated.

The Holy Writings, that Great Light in Masonry, will guide you to all truth; it will direct your path to the temple of happiness, and point out to you the whole duty of man. However men may differ in creed, yet all men agree that within the pages of the Holy Bible are found those principles which lay the foundation upon which to build a righteous life. Freemasonry would take all men by the hand and, leading them to its altar, would point to the open Bible and urge each faithfully to direct his steps through life by the light he shall find therein. If, from our sacred altar, the atheist or irreligious man should ever wrest this book and thus remove, or even obscure, the Great Light of Freemasonry, that light which has been for centuries the rule and guide of all masons, then we could no longer claim the proud title and rank of master mason. As long as that sacred light shines upon our altar,as long as it illumines and brightens the pathway of the craftsman by the golden rays oftruth; so long will Freemasonry live and shed its beneficent influence among men. Guard,then, my brother, this sacred book as you guard your life. Defend it as you would defend the flag of your country. Live according to its sublime precepts; govern yourself that you may be able to govern others; learn first that you may be able to teach; for justice, moderation, and decorum should mark the acts of an upright man. (p. 16-17)

It's current, too, so you can't go hollering about dates on this one. You and Skip sound like echoing magpies with that chant. You really should both give that one a break, since so much current material continues to make it look sophomoric to even claim it any more.

Skip Sampson · Dec 2, 2010

Wayne:
You keep trying to show a Freemasonry that no longer exists. You quotes from the LSME, and from other sources, continue to show that. What NC claimed about the Bible in 1969 is not what they claim in 2010, showing exactly what kind of evolution is occuring within that jurisdiction, and probably most others as well. Cordially, Skip.

O.F.F. · Dec 2, 2010

Wayne said:
Who said anything about 1969? I sure didn't.

Can you be honest, for once, and tell us the year of the edition you quoted from? I found it online, and I suspect you did too. There is no later edition available on the internet. So tell us which one you used, or admit it's from 1969.

Wayne said:
Apparently there either aren't any non-Christians in their lodges,

That's about as idiotic and absurd as saying that there aren't any non-Christians in South Carolina lodges, or any lodge in America, for that matter. Yet you expect readers to believe this. Heck, you may as well expect them to believe that there aren't any non-Christians (including seekers and agnostics) in any Christian church in America either; but I doubt any are that gullible.

Wayne said:
or everyone has that requirement regardless of his faith

That's equally idiotic, because it doesn't even make any Masonic sense whatsoever. Freemasonry espouses religious freedom and religious tolerance and accepts all religions and all men from any religion. It makes no Masonic sense to think that any Grand Lodge would impose the Holy Bible on any of its members. You know this, and to say that it does impose it upon them simply adds to your deceit.

You're simply trying to mislead readers into thinking that the Holy Bible, in American Freemasonry, is more than just a symbol of all other Volumes of Sacred Law (VSL) in Freemasonry in other countries.

The prevailing Masonic opinion is that in Christian countries the VSL is the Holy Bible; and considered the Great Light in Masonry. A Masonic lodge cannot exist without a VSL, a Book of the Law, on its altar. So in countries where there are other religions, the sacred book of those religions (be it the Koran, the Vedas, or Upanishads, etc.) becomes the Great Light in their Masonic lodges.

What is important is that some Volume of Sacred Law be a part of the furniture of the lodge; and as such, any VSL can be considered the Great Light in Masonry. Freemasonry is not at all concerned with Christian doctrine or religious dogma of any religion or sect or denomination, but only with "that natural religion in which all men agree." It is only necessary that the VSL be sacred to the members of the lodge. Insomuch as Masons from different religions may visit lodges whose VSL is not their own, they need not be offended, for it is merely a symbol of his own VSL, and of the VSL of those Masons whose religion may differ from his own.

However, since you insist on misleading and deceiving readers on this forum with idiotic claims, I will have to make the necessary Grand Lodge inquiries to prove you wrong AGAIN; just as I did when your own Grand Master confirmed similar things to me earlier this year.

Rev Wayne · Dec 2, 2010

Can you be honest, for once, and tell us the year of the edition you quoted from? I found it online, and I suspect you did too.

Well, on my side of the issue, I have BEEN honest, I have said nothing that was not true, or that cannot be stated as a logical possibility based on the information posted. You, on the other hand, seem unwilling to answer the question posed to you as to whether the statement appears there just as I posted it.

What are you trying to get at with all this date crap, anyway? The same old asinine attempt to invalidate information on the basis of when it was written? Are you trying to say the information is not currently taught in NC? If so, then why not just come out and say it? And why is it you do not see the logical inconsistency of trying to nail me about material written in 1969, while you are quoting Pike's Morals and Dogma, which was written nearly a century earlier? Looks like the same antimasonic double standard at its very finest.

That's about as idiotic and absurd as saying that there aren't any non-Christians in South Carolina lodges, or any lodge in America, for that matter.

No more idiotic and absurd than quoting Pike while complaining about "dated" monitors written a century later.

Yet you expect readers to believe this. Heck, you may as well expect them to believe that there aren't any non-Christians (including seekers and agnostics) in any Christian church in America either; but I doubt any are that gullible.

I doubt it, too, and in fact you practically echo the same sentiment I have often expressed here, so what's your point?

That's equally idiotic, because it doesn't even make any Masonic sense whatsoever. Freemasonry espouses religious freedom and religious tolerance and accepts all religions and all men from any religion. It makes no Masonic sense to think that any Grand Lodge would impose the Holy Bible on any of its members. You know this, and to say that it does impose it upon them simply adds to your deceit.

"Deceit?" I thought you said you HAD the LSME in your possession? Can you not read it for yourself and see exactly what it says?

You're simply trying to mislead readers into thinking that the Holy Bible, in American Freemasonry, is more than just a symbol of all other Volumes of Sacred Law (VSL) in Freemasonry in other countries.

That's not what it said, and you KNOW it. Here it is again for you:

The Three Great Lights in Masonry are the Holy Bible, the Square, and the Compasses. The Holy Bible represents the will of God as understood by man, the Square is the emblem of virtue, and the Compasses signify the moral and spiritual life. If a man acts in obedience to the will of God and according to the dictates of an enlightened conscience, he will be living in the illumination of the Great Lights and cannot go astray. (p. 41)

Where YOU said "VSL," the LSME says "Holy Bible." Where YOU said "a symbol of all other VSL's," the LSME says "the will of God as understood by man." Huge difference.

Heck, look at the statements, Michael, you're not blind, at least not in the physical sense. You ought to be able to understand the plain language logic of what was said. After all, you've employed it so often in making accusations, upon every occasion when you find a slight variation in wording that can be taken a different direction. It should be much simpler for you to see it when the language actually DOES take it a different direction than you might expect. Let's review them:

It teaches a belief in a Supreme Being, in the immortality of the soul, and that the Holy Bible is the inestimable gift of God to man as the rule and guide for his faith and practice. (p. 14)
As to religion, it is required that a petitioner believe in God and in Immortality; that he recognizes the Holy Bible as the rule and guide of his faith. (p. 24)
The Three Great Lights in Masonry are the Holy Bible, the Square, and the Compasses. (p. 41)

Holy Bible, Holy Bible, Holy Bible--all three times, just as cited, and just as you have it in your booklet and seem terrified to admit without trying to discredit it or attach some sort of disclaimer to the material. Seems to me a much wiser course for you to have taken, would be, simply acknowledge that NC teachings about the Bible, just as already shown about SC, simply do not square with what you have always taken to be the mainstream or universal position. That would have the advantages of (1) actually having something in the NC statement to support it, and (2) actually making sense.

The prevailing Masonic opinion. . .

UNH - UNH- UNH, Mike. We weren't discussing "prevailing Masonic opinion," remember? This is SPECIFIC information, from ONE Grand Lodge's LSME booklet, and must be approached from THAT context, and not some artificial context of "prevailing opinion" superimposed upon it by you. The thing is, by appealing to "Masonic opinion," you are really trying to take this out of its present context in order to assert your OWN opinion on the matter, and the context does not permit it. This is one booklet in one jurisdiction, and everybody knows, and Masonry everywhere states, that there ARE variations once you compare manuals and bylaws and codes from one jurisdiction to another. Heck, if you want to go that route, let's go to the Swedish Rite countries--still "regular" bodies of Masonry--which yet have as the "prevailing Masonic opinion" in each of them, a requirement of profession of Christian faith as a prerequisite for membership.

Let's fact it, y'all been taking that dog with you to the field every time you go, for YEARS now, and that mangy little mutt STILL won't hunt. It's high time you sell him, give him away, or leave him home.

. . . is that in Christian countries the VSL is the Holy Bible; and considered the Great Light in Masonry.

So now you're claiming this is a "Christian country?" If that wasn't such a hoot, I'd actually respond to it. Back in the day, when any of us would bring that statement up, we'd get hounded off the forum with jeers and catcalls, and new threads asserting all the reasons why this is NOT a Christian country. What caused you to reverse course all of a sudden? Waitaminnit, I think I know: You found an argument where taking that position is convenient, so you abandoned your former diametrically opposite opinion for this one. Wouldn't be the first time.

And besides, despite YOUR claim, the statement does not read "VSL," it reads "Holy Bible." This much you seem at least willing to acknowledge to be true for NC as a state in a Christian country; but what you fail to see is, they do NOT state this as "in North Carolina," or even "in the US"; the way the statements are worded are:

"It [Freemasonry] teaches. . ."
"The Three Great Lights in MASONRY. . ."

So your appeal to the broader statements can hardly apply, when the statements as worded in the NC LSME booklet ALSO employ the broader idea of "Freemasonry," and not just "NC Masonry." How will you explain that one away?

So in countries where there are other religions, the sacred book of those religions (be it the Koran, the Vedas, or Upanishads, etc.) becomes the Great Light in their Masonic lodges.

Wow, as if I wasn't shocked enough for you to speak of "Christian countries," which you used to deny--now you go even further, to try to assert some kind of notion that there are no other religions in this country??? I know you will deny it, but the way you prefaced that statement certainly implies it: "in countries where there are other religions. . .," as if to say this is a Christian country because there are no other religions, an absurd notion at best.

Gee, I would have thought the fact that we have an "Islamic Association of North America" would have been enough to convince you otherwise.

It is only necessary that the VSL be sacred to the members of the lodge. Insomuch as Masons from different religions may visit lodges whose VSL is not their own, they need not be offended, for it is merely a symbol of his own VSL, and of the VSL of those Masons whose religion may differ from his own.

Wow, Michael, if I didn't know better, I'd think you were still a Mason after that statement. So tell me, then, since you are asserting this as your position on the matter: if a Mason "need not be offended if visiting a lodge whose VSL is not their own";

Then what the heck are you GRUMBLING about????

Naturally, you will try to claim you were simply presenting the lodge's position, or some similar plausible-sounding excuse; but that's not what you did, you were presenting this as a defense against having to admit what the NC statement truly says. Meanwhile, the buzzards are circling. . . .

However, since you insist on misleading and deceiving readers on this forum with idiotic claims,

"Misleading and deceiving?" How so? I posted the statements just as they appear. They say what they say, anyone can see that as plain as day. You are simply in big-time denial at the moment, and will say anything to try to plug the leak.

I will have to make the necessary Grand Lodge inquiries to prove you wrong AGAIN; just as I did when your own Grand Master confirmed similar things to me earlier this year.

After THAT fiasco on your part, be my guest. After all, I already got the word that DENIED that claim, or did you forget that?

Plus, I've got a couple of other queries I put out a couple of days ago, and already got a reply that the request is under consideration already, they just want to research a couple of points first. You might wanna be careful what you go trying to cook up--especially if you have to go about it in the same manner in which you tried to do an end-around on the SC GL--because you just may wind up in your own stew. But of course, I imagine you're getting quite used to that by now.

And before I forget: I notice you still didn't answer that simple question as to whether the statement appears in the LSME booklet just as I posted it. Cat got your tongue?

Rev Wayne · Dec 2, 2010

Wayne:
You keep trying to show a Freemasonry that no longer exists. You quotes from the LSME, and from other sources, continue to show that. What NC claimed about the Bible in 1969 is not what they claim in 2010, showing exactly what kind of evolution is occuring within that jurisdiction, and probably most others as well.

Skip:
You keep trying to show an opinion about dates of materials found in Freemasonry, that has been shown to be a figment of your imagination. If you haven't gotten the message by now from the scores of RECENT materials presented, which show similar positions taken in materials published by Grand Lodges, you simply haven't been paying attention, and probably need the same admonition I just gave Mike: try actually READING the posts before responding to them.

Or did you just assume that because you posted a reply, is tantamount to having refuted the whole lot? You haven't even come close, nor have you really even made any effort. You figured on simply letting it slide by without reply, then pick and choose your spots to challenge later. The readers here are not dummies, I think they'll see through that kind of sophomoric smugness without any trouble.

You have no grounds on which to make the claim anyway. What if I presented a booklet from SC, with the statement about the Great Light in Masonry being the Holy Bible? Would you challenge it on the same ground if the situation were the same, a booklet dated 1969? Do you know what my immediate and sure counter would be? I'd point out the various citations found in Ahiman Rezon stating exactly the same thing, referring to the Holy Bible as the "Great Light in Masonry." And you know it's true, too, right? After all, the 2010 version you have (not 1969) still says the same thing.

You know how this works, Skip, until you present something to back it up, your opinions are meaningless. And since the continued attempts to label as "outdated" pretty much anything that posts, have already been shown to be completely bogus--after Mike walked right into it with the Short Talk Bulletin quotes--until you actually post something from a later edition of the LSME, you haven't countered anything at all, you have only expressed Skip Sampson's opinion.

Rev Wayne · Dec 2, 2010

EVERYBODY who understands the governance of Freemasonry knows that it is done by the Code

That Code is an interesting thing, you know. Maybe somebody ought to point out to Skip, one of the Masonic offenses in their list:

5. To have illegal carnal intercourse with one who is not the wife, sister, mother, or daughter of a Master Mason

That's twice now on this very thread, as I recall, that his old pet accusation gets turned on its head. Sure, it still has the other one listed, applying to the wife, sister, mother, or daughter of a Mason; but nobody can deny the significance of the fact that it has BOTH.

O.F.F. · Dec 2, 2010

Wayne said:
That Code is an interesting thing, you know. Maybe somebody ought to point out to Skip, one of the Masonic offenses in their list:

5. To have illegal carnal intercourse with one who is not the wife, sister, mother, or daughter of a Master Mason

Click to expand...

That's twice now on this very thread, as I recall, that his old pet accusation gets turned on its head. Sure, it still has the other one listed, applying to the wife, sister, mother, or daughter of a Mason; but nobody can deny the significance of the fact that it has BOTH.

What's even more interesting, is how this turns your pet claim on its head. If ALL Masons from both North & South Carolina are such good "Christians," why do they have to be told not to commit adultery in the first place?

Wayne said:
After all, I already got the word that DENIED that claim, or did you forget that?

That's funny, I guess YOU forgot that you NEVER posted anything, specifically from YOUR Grand MASTER, repudiating what he has already personally stated to me in writing.

Rev Wayne · Dec 2, 2010

If ALL Masons from both North & South Carolina are such good "Christians," why do they have to be told not to commit adultery in the first place?

Gee, why ask me, Mike? Haven't you ever thought of asking God that question? After all, it's in our Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. If all of us are supposed to be such good Christians, then why was it one of the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament, and then repeated in several admonitions in the Christian epistles?

That's funny, I guess YOU forgot that you NEVER posted anything, specifically from YOUR Grand MASTER, repudiating what he has already personally stated to me in writing.

It's even funnier that I told you what Grand Secretary Marsh said about how ridiculous the claim was, and you still don't seem to get it.

And even funnier than that is how you avoided answering anything in my post to you, and chose instead to address the shorter post.

Skip Sampson · Dec 2, 2010

You know how this works, Skip, until you present something to back it up, your opinions are meaningless.

Well, I don't mind that. Here's what you said:

Apparently this states that in NC, it is a requirement that a petitioner recognize the Holy BIble as the rule and guide of his faith. In other words, before taking a single degree, he has to profess the Holy Bible to be the rule and guide of his faith.

And as Mike pointed out from the 2010 Code, no such requirement exists. Bottom line is that you quoted from an out-of-print document from 1969 on the qualifications of a petitioner that proved to be out of date, and flat out wrong, as the Code (2010) indicates. Despite your protestations, Mike has shown that your claim as noted above is simply wrong.

You didn't bother to check more recent documentation because you were happy to find something that met your paradigm and now you look silly because of it. You also didn't count on Mike, or me for that matter, to check up on the facts of the matter, which was pretty short-sighted of you. To summarize, you have, again, been proven to be wrong.

As to the other point, your quotes just note the evolution in Masonic beliefs. The bible is becoming the VSL, God is becoming 'god' and the Great Light as important to Masonry is becoming the VSL that's important to Masonry. You can run, Wayne, but you can't hide from those truths which you, yourself have shown us.

4. To have illegal carnal intercourse with wife, sister, mother, or daughter of a Master Mason. Penalty expulsion.
5. To have illegal carnal intercourse with one who is not the wife, sister, mother, or daughter of a Master Mason (Reg. 86-2, 2010 code)

That's twice now on this very thread, as I recall, that his old pet accusation gets turned on its head.

Not quite. My discussions in that area were about the MM oaths and obligations, not the Code. The candidate for the MM degree certainly promises to obey the code, but all the MM obligations I've seen call on him to no have such intercourse with the womenfolk of Master Masons only. I find it interesting that the code demands expulsion for those violating MM female relatives, but not necessarily the same for women not associated with Master Masons* (maybe like the obligation, those of EA's and FC's are fair game). Unless you can show me that your MM ritual mirrors the Code, I stand by my comments. Nice to know that adultry is a Masonic offense. I wonder how, or if, it is enforced? Cordially, Skip.

*P.S. - I wondered why you didn't cite the direct source for your Code quote; now that I see it, I know why. You, again, didn't think we'd check, did you? Silly fellow.

Biblical Content and/or Christian Interpretation II: Monitorial

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Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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An Ex-Mason for Jesus

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Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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An Ex-Mason for Jesus

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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