Yeah I'm sure thats what they tell you! no illuminati huh!.....they got a good one when they found you!
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Yeah I'm sure thats what they tell you! no illuminati huh!.....they got a good one when they found you!yada yada. There is no Illuminati. You watch too much youtube. Get a real pastime, for goodness' sake.
And the "G" is derived from the Hebrew Yod, signifying the four-letter Hebrew tetragrammaton, or ineffable name of God.
Do you have a GL source that states that fact? Your own GL has this to say:And the "G" is derived from the Hebrew Yod, signifying the four-letter Hebrew tetragrammaton, or ineffable name of God.
It is hardly necessary to say that the letter G, wherever spoken of in Masonry as a symbol, is merely a modern substitution of the Hebrew letter yod, which was the initial of Jehovah, the tetragammaton, and, therefore, constantly used as the symbol of Deity. (SC GL, AR, 2010, pg. 151)
You keep mentioning "calling" them. Where did you get such a ridiculous notion? I stated all along that I had attempted to order the manual from a subordinate lodge who had the publication for sale on their website. The contacts were made by email.
But here's what you had to say to me from the start:Post 228: Because the contact was direct with the Florida lodge that offered the manual for sale, and because the reply indicated their rejection was rendered after consulting the Florida Grand Secretary, I take it as their official policy, without question.
Ok, we're talking about calling the GL and you said you've "been through the process" and that you've "had a number of contacts with the GL." Related, I never said I had called them asking for the booklets, only that I had called and inquired about their status. I sent a letter asking for them, which resulted in them sending them to me. BTW, your reference to "WM" was in error as well, as I earlier pointed out.Post 181: You claim to have simply "called up" the Grand Lodge of Florida and requested these booklets. You and I both know you just can't simply do that. Even if one IS a Mason, there are STILL all the hoops to jump through as regards protocol, identification, etc. I know, because I've been through the process. ... Over the years, I have had a number of contacts with Grand Lodge, and never once has the WM been the one to reply, it's always the Grand Secretary. I've had some contacts with other GL's too, and it's standard with them as well.
Ok, we're talking about ordering things from the GL and you imply to have done so as well. One assumes 'they' returned your payment.Post 208: Me: I have ordered copies of training documentation from the GL, but have not yet received them.
You: Nor will you be receiving them either. I was denied even after my payment was accepted, and even after submitting the requested verification that I am a Mason, which consisted of a scanned copy of my current dues card. My request was rejected simply because I am not a Mason in Florida.
Post 220: Me: the FL GL training manuals which I had ordered by mail finally arrived today. They include the Mentor's Manual and the 8 Masonic Education booklets. As I noted, all one has to do is send in an order form with payment and the books show up. This tactic has worked in several jurisdictions.
You: As I already told you, they would not even sell them to me even though I provided Masonic identification as requested, because I do not reside in Florida. Naturally, since you live there, the residency issue would not come up.
Ok, based on all that preceded, you are referring to the GL.Post 222: In my case, I placed an order for the Florida Monitor specifically, and not the other materials.
Ok, you bluntly claim that the FL GL told you something, and that 'they' did not send you the material.Post 224: You: But since Florida Grand Lodge made it clear to me they would not permit the sale of Masonic materials to anyone other than Florida Masons, I find your story extremely doubtful.
Me: Some GL folks are pretty perceptive, ya know.You: Apparently not. They have me photocopy my credentials and still don't send me the material; while they send you (or so you claim) anything you ask for, no questions asked. Some of us non-GL folks are pretty perceptive too, but it doesn't take that much perception to see the holes in your story, given the response I as a Mason received when I tried to do the same.
Ok, you know how to get in touch with them.Post 226: But since you wish to make such an issue of such a non-issue, maybe it's worth looking into. I'll contact them and ask why antimason Skip Sampson can purchase things from them and I as a Mason cannot. It still might not get me any materials, but at least they'd have a name to watch for, and they can plug the leak next time around.
Ok, you now claim to know the official policy of the GL, which "they initially defined to me," meaning direct contact with them. You also say 'they' rejected your request and 'informed' you of that decision.Post 228: All I know is, the official policy of the Florida Grand Lodge, as they initially defined it to me, is, they distribute such materials only to Masons. And upon supplying Masonic identification per their request (photocopied dues card attached to an email), they then rejected the request, and informed me that the Florida Monitor was for sale only to Florida Masons.
Ok, now you let Mike know that you've dealt with a subordinate lodge, and not the GL itself, but do not indicate that you've never contacted the GL over the matter. The truth, kinda, finally comes out.Post 228 (continued): Because the contact was direct with the Florida lodge that offered the manual for sale, and because the reply indicated their rejection was rendered after consulting the Florida Grand Secretary, I take it as their official policy, without question.
Wayne is right: he's not a member. If they existed, they wouldn't be that desperate for members. Cordially, Skip.Yeah I'm sure thats what they tell you! no illuminati huh!.....they got a good one when they found you!
how did the English letter G get derived from the Hebrew Yod?
Your statements, "all along," did not indicate that you were working with a subordinate lodge; rather, they pointed to the GL itself.
Post 228: Because the contact was direct with the Florida lodge that offered the manual for sale, and because the reply indicated their rejection was rendered after consulting the Florida Grand Secretary, I take it as their official policy, without question.
Skip seems to be saying that he ordered these materials from the Florida GL. Because of the experience I had, even when it was dealing only with an individual lodge offering it on their website, I remain highly skeptical of Skip's claim. If a subordinate lodge is that careful, it stands to reason the Grand Lodge would be even MORE careful, not less. For that reason, I simply do not believe his story.
Over the years, I have had a number of contacts with Grand Lodge, and never once has the WM been the one to reply, it's always the Grand Secretary. I've had some contacts with other GL's too, and it's standard with them as well.
their rejection was rendered after consulting the Florida Grand Secretary. . .
But here's what you had to say to me from the start:
Post 181: You claim to have simply "called up" the Grand Lodge of Florida and requested these booklets. You and I both know you just can't simply do that. Even if one IS a Mason, there are STILL all the hoops to jump through as regards protocol, identification, etc. I know, because I've been through the process. ... Over the years, I have had a number of contacts with Grand Lodge, and never once has the WM been the one to reply, it's always the Grand Secretary. I've had some contacts with other GL's too, and it's standard with them as well.
As you can see from that reply, payment was not even sent at the time of the comments in post #181, which is dated January 14. Therefore, post #181 has absolutely nothing to do with what I said either way, because by your comment about "what I had to say from the start," you are trying to have me addressing in that post, an action of mine which was not even taken until over two weeks later. You just get better and better with your facility for creating nonsense.Feb 1, 2011 17:04:43 PST
Transaction ID: 3JD870169F870810S
Hello Wayne,
You authorized a payment of XXXXX USD to Jackson Lodge No. 1, F.&A.M.
Actually, they do nothing of the sort. The facts show you to be in error, and clearly show you were claiming things that simply did not happen.There are three key points that refute your nonsense:
Indeed. The AR captures it far better than you did. Cordially, Skip.Pretty simple stuff, actually.
Don't have a clue what you are aimlessly tossing out on that one. I've cited the same AR passage myself many times, I fail to see any point or any relevance to your reply.Indeed. The AR captures it far better than you did.
No surprise there. Cordially, Skip.Don't have a clue what you are aimlessly tossing out on that one. I've cited the same AR passage myself many times, I fail to see any point or any relevance to your reply.
Digest: Masonic Law is of two kinds, viz: The unwritten and written. The unwritten law of Masonry comprises its mystic covenants and ceremonies which have been handed down by tradition from time immemorial, and which no Mason, or set of Masons, is at liberty to violate or unlawfully reveal. The written law of Masonry is embraced in the Holy Bible, the Constitution and legislation of Grand Lodge, and the Laws, Rules and Regulations of the Particular Lodges, respectively, to which every Mason in his proper sphere of fraternal jurisdiction should yield dutiful conformity
Refer back to your post #185 for context. Slowly but surely, the Bible is giving way to the Volume of Sacred Law in Florida, and probably elsewhere as well. Cordially, Skip.LSME Vol 3 2010: Masonic Law exists in two main branches, Unwritten Law and "Written Law. By Unwritten Law is not meant that it is never written down, but rather that its authority does not lie in the form in which it may be written-if written at all. Under this head fall the Ancient Landmarks, Old Charges, Ancient Constitutions, traditions, customs, and usages. By the Written Law are meant the Volume of Sacred Law, Grand Lodge Constitutions, Codes, Statutes, Rules, Definitions, Regulations, adopted Edicts, and Lodge By-Laws. (pg. 13)
I don't see how you expect to substantiate this from what you just posted, since we already showed earlier that the 2010 version of the Digest still says Holy Bible, just as it shows in what you just cited from the Digest, WHEREVER it came from (the date was omitted in your post). That wording has not changed from the 1994 version.Refer back to your post #185 for context. Slowly but surely, the Bible is giving way to the Volume of Sacred Law in Florida, and probably elsewhere as well.
The proof is in the recorded changes, as this set exemplifies (emphasis added):I don't see how you expect to substantiate this from what you just posted,
LSME Vol 2 - 1976: The Three Great Lights are the Holy Bible, the Square and the Compasses. As a Great Light the Bible represents the will of God as a man understands it; (p. 20, cited by Wayne Majors)
When a is altered in subsequent editions, it is clear that it was by design, and meaning can be derived from the change. Mine is as stated: the Bible will get replaced more and more with the VSL, not only in Florida, but within Masonry in general.LSME Vol 2 1994 & 2009: The Three Great Lights are the Volume of Sacred Law, the Square and the Compasses. As a Great Light the Volume of Sacred Law represents the will of God as a man understands it; (pgs. 7 & 6, respectively)
The written law of Masonry is embraced in the Holy Bible, the Constitution and legislation of Grand Lodge, and the Laws, Rules and Regulations of the Particular Lodges, respectively, to which every Mason in his proper sphere of fraternal jurisdiction should yield dutiful conformity. (Digest, 2005, Art. 1.03, pg. 79)
Though two different references, the fact that LSME does not follow the Digest is pretty significant, especially given the date of the LSME reference. Even more so is why a training document would take a position opposed to the Digest. BTW, the Digest is unavailable on the GL website; it is apparently under construction, whatever that might mean. Should be interesting to see what, if anything, has changed when it comes back up.By the Written Law are meant the Volume of Sacred Law, Grand Lodge Constitutions, Codes, Statutes, Rules, Definitions, Regulations, adopted Edicts, and Lodge By-Laws. (LSME Vol 3, 2010, pg. 13)
All that makes the LSME consistent with both the Mentors Manual:The Volume of Sacred Law is the Great Light in Masonry, and the Rule and Guide for faith and practice. (LSME Vol 3, 2010, pg. 11)
And the preponderance of evidence in the Digest:The Great Light of Freemasonry is the Volume of the Sacred Law and it is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Lodge. (2008, pg. 10)
The First Grand Light in Masonry is the unadorned Holy Bible. (1941 Proc. 82) (38.27) (Note: the Digest does not define the Three Great Lights.)
FL GL documentation does contain inconsistencies. Specifically, the Monitor, ritual and Study Guide Mod II all point to the Bible as one of the Great Lights, one way or another, as does the EA Degree Booklet. The Masonic Etiquette booklet refers indirectly to the Bible as a Great Light. I put those views down as another facet of Masonic scholarship. Either that or those references havent yet caught up in the New Thinking. My guess is that the ritual and Monitor will not be changed, as these have pedigrees that go far beyond the FL GL. I think the SG, which is dated 1994, will eventually get updated, as will the EA Degree and Masonic Etiquette booklets, even though those are dated from 2010. I suspect no one really read through it for consistency before uploading it. Analysis continues.The Volume of the Sacred Law, open upon the altar, is an indispensable furnishing of every Lodge while at Labor, (pg. 3)The Volume of the Sacred Law, open upon the altar, is an indispensable furnishing of every regular Lodge while at labor. (FL Digest, Art. XIII, pg. 70)
The Volume of the Sacred Law, open upon the altar, is an indispensable furnishing of every regular Lodge while at labor. (Ch. 1, pg. 77)
The Volume of the Sacred Law, open upon the Altar, is an indispensable furnishing of every regular Lodge while at labor. (Excerpt; Art. XIII, Sec. 2) (pg. 291, Art. 38.25)
This is the only reference that Ive found in FL GL training documentation that shows the relationship of the VSL and the Bible. Its location is significant, as the MM is designed to assist the mentor in the training of new Masons; thus, it would be expected to discuss just such a matter.The Great Light of Freemasonry is the Volume of the Sacred Law and it is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Lodge. The Grand Lodges of the United States use the Holy Bible as the V.S.L. on their altars. (pg. 10)
Notice that the (singular) VSL is the term used for the (plural) holy books. Thus, the Bible cannot be 'the' VSL, and they are not really interchangeable as the latter appellation clearly applies to many books. Notice too that the definition equates the Bible to any other book a man might decide is holy. As a pastor, Im sure you find nothing offensive in that definition.VOLUME OF SACRED LAW: The Holy Book placed upon the Altar in a Masonic Lodge, the correct term to be used Masonically for all holy books. (SG MOD II, pg. 83)
The First Grand Light in Masonry is the unadorned Holy Bible. (1941 Proc. 82) (ruling under Art. 38.27)
6) He rests secure in the Masonic view that the Bible is only one of many volumes classified as holy books but is important within FL GL because it was decided to make it so. And someday they may decide to use a different VSL.It is proper for Low Twelve Club to display open Bible on Altar but not proper to display Three Great Lights. (1967 Proc. 57, 211) (ruling under Art. 38.45)
LSME Vol 2 - 1976: The Three Great Lights are the Holy Bible, the Square and the Compasses. As a Great Light the Bible represents the will of God as a man understands it; (p. 20, cited by Wayne Majors)
LSME Vol 2 – 1994 & 2009: The Three Great Lights are the Volume of Sacred Law, the Square and the Compasses. As a Great Light the Volume of Sacred Law represents the will of God as a man understands it; (pgs. 7 & 6, respectively)
This change can also be seen in this comparison (emphasis added):
Though two different references, the fact that LSME does not follow the Digest is pretty significant, especially given the date of the LSME reference. Even more so is why a training document would take a position opposed to the Digest. BTW, the Digest is unavailable on the GL website; it is apparently under construction, whatever that might mean. Should be interesting to see what, if anything, has changed when it comes back up.
Yet, while I see you must have gotten the "VOLUME OF SACRED LAW" quote from the study guide, you apparently neglected to post the definition it contains for "Great Lights" or for "Three Great Lights." Is there some reason for that? Did you forget?GREAT LIGHTS: The furniture of the Lodge; the Holy Bible, Square and Compasses. (Florida, "Dictionary of Masonic Terms," Module 2 Study Guide, 2002, p. 71)
THREE GREAT LIGHTS: The Holy Bible, Square & Compasses. (Florida, "Dictionary of Masonic Terms," Module 2 Study Guide, 2002, p. 82)
The First Grand Light in Masonry is the unadorned Holy Bible. (1941 Proc. 82) (38.27) (Note: the Digest does not define the Three Great Lights.)
My guess is that the ritual and Monitor will not be changed, as these have pedigrees that go far beyond the FL GL.
Gee, what a convoluted picture you invented. What will be the most likely thing that takes place is, he will look at the altar when he attends lodge, where he will see for himself it's the Bible.So here’s how it works in Florida:
1) The candidate learns that the Bible is the Great Light in Masonry and the rule and guide to his faith and practice in the EA ritual, a view which is backed up by the Monitor. 2) When he shifts to the LSME to learn more, he finds that it’s really the VSL that is the Great Light and that the Bible is not mentioned at all. 3) When he asks his mentor, the latter explains the relationship from the MM. 4) Later on, he visits the Study Guides and finds that they support the ritual in terms of what constitutes the Great Lights, but he refers back to what his mentor told him and sees the proper context. 5) If he’s really energetic, he looks to the Digest and finds that it really is the VSL. He is most likely confused by these statements, but I’m sure he’ll get over them:
Just more Skip Sampson smokework. The Bible has ALWAYS been the Bible on the altar, it was not "chosen from among" any "volume." That should be clear from the fact that "volume of Sacred Law" was not even a term in vogue at the time Florida GL was formed.I interpret that in this manner: The VSL really is part of the Great Lights, but the GL has chosen the Bible from among that volume to use in its jurisdiction
You asked for supporting documentation for my view that the Bible is being replaced by the VSL in FL documentation. Ya got it and I think it's pretty convincing. It's pretty clear that this happened in the LSME as noted, and is probably happening elsewhere, as also noted.Don't know why you reposted this
Which quote are you referring to?We already know that the Digest dated 2010 still has "Holy Bible," because it was cited from during the course of the discussion. Why you didn't post that one, I'm not sure
Oh, I think not. The Digest contains Masonic law; the LSME is a training document. That the latter bluntly contradicts the former is significant and fits well with my theory.And you miss the mark when you try to put a divide between the terms by calling one of them "opposed" to the other.
Here is the link I used, and it's still down:And when you mentioned the Digest is "unavailable on the GL website," I went straight to the site and immediately pulled it up, and there it is, just as it was during the time we were involved in that discussion, 2004 version with 2010 updates.
I guess you didn't read my post as closely as you demand that others read yours (emphasis added):Yet, while I see you must have gotten the "VOLUME OF SACRED LAW" quote from the study guide, you apparently neglected to post the definition it contains for "Great Lights" or for "Three Great Lights." Is there some reason for that?
It was unnecessary to quote the SG, or the Monitor and Ritual for that matter.Specifically, the Monitor, ritual and Study Guide Mod II all point to the Bible as one of the Great Lights, one way or another, as does the EA Degree Booklet.
Because it did not refer to it as a 'Great' light. One can argue that something else was meant, especially since the Digest goes to great lengths to proclaim the VSL as the furniture of the lodge which, of course, includes the Great Lights.And how did you consider this to be "evidence": ... Since the Digest clearly defines what the FIRST one is, your note is irrelevant.
Guess you are wrong about that, as the earlier quote of mine noted.Since you obviously don't wish to admit that the SG still has Holy Bible as one of the three great lights,
As do I. And, as I also noted, that's not likely to change. One has to wonder why, if the ritual and monitor are such authorities, the LSME would directly contradict both. My reasons for that are as stated, and fit the facts nicely.I do have the current Florida ritual, and I know it still has Holy Bible.
Unless he sees another VSL there as well, then he'll remember what the LSME and MM have taught.Gee, what a convoluted picture you invented. What will be the most likely thing that takes place is, he will look at the altar when he attends lodge, where he will see for himself it's the Bible.
Interesting verbiage: "the bible has ALWAYS been the Bible on the altar..." Maybe you agree with this statement:The Bible has ALWAYS been the Bible on the altar, it was not "chosen from among" any "volume." That should be clear from the fact that "volume of Sacred Law" was not even a term in vogue at the time Florida GL was formed.
I think it's an interesting statement, and highlights the view that all the books of the VSL are equal to each other.... in that teaching it is as true and as profound as the utterances of the seers in the Bibles of the world; (FL GL MM Degree, 1994, pg. 2)
You asked for supporting documentation for my view that the Bible is being replaced by the VSL in FL documentation.
Which quote are you referring to?
Ya got it and I think it's pretty convincing. It's pretty clear that this happened in the LSME as noted, and is probably happening elsewhere, as also noted.
Oh, I think not. The Digest contains Masonic law; the LSME is a training document. That the latter bluntly contradicts the former is significant and fits well with my theory.
Here is the link I used, and it's still down:
Because it did not refer to it as a 'Great' light. One can argue that something else was meant, especially since the Digest goes to great lengths to proclaim the VSL as the furniture of the lodge which, of course, includes the Great Lights.
One has to wonder why, if the ritual and monitor are such authorities, the LSME would directly contradict both.
Unless he sees another VSL there as well, then he'll remember what the LSME and MM have taught.
As to being in vogue, I think the concept of the VSL goes back much farther than does the FL GL.
Interesting verbiage: "the bible has ALWAYS been the Bible on the altar..."
Great! Perhaps you can help me with something. How do you interpret the lines spoken by the W.M., p. 21, 10th line down from the top, through the thirteenth?W: I do have the current Florida ritual, and I know it still has Holy Bible.
S: As do I.
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