Bible warnings about forgiveness revoked and being severed from Christ - fallen from Grace

[BobRyan]

There are a number of texts that speak to the warning of loss of forgiveness, being severed from Christ, falling from grace... branches in Christ that are removed.

1. Matt 18:32-35 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter
2. Ezek 18:20-28 - Entire chapter teaches "forgiveness revoked" and die in sins
3. John 15 - "branches in me" that are cut off and burned up
4. Matt 13:5-6,20-21 - Rocky ground example - teaches salvation revoked.
5. Rom 11:19-21 - those who "stand only by faith" - are to fear lest they are lost by failing to continue
6. 1 Cor 9:22-27 - Paul is exercising self discipline --lest after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it
7. Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ... you have fallen from grace"
8. Heb 6 - those who have escaped , who have found salvation - turning back again to being lost. Not able to "renew them again" back to being saved - in this very special case

As one might easily perceive - changing a warning about the saved being in danger of becoming lost (becoming severed from Christ, having full forgiveness revoked) is a far more weighty matter than "Warning the lost against becoming lost-er".

It is also a far more weighty matter than warning "the saved that they are in danger of still being saved but having 'less blessings' ". The idea of "less blessings but still joined to Christ, still fully forgiven" is not in these examples.

Very often in once-saved-always-saved affirmations some or all of these texts get skimmed past or ignored entirely.

Some will even argue that to accept OSAS one has to ignore many of these texts as "not applicable to Christians" - since the texts are so clearly a problem for OSAS.

But I have noticed that the Bible never warns about a problem "that is not real"

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So instead of "not looking at these texts and just finding something that might be less of a problem" - in this thread I propose that we look at these texts.

 

[BobRyan]

Starts with an impossibly large debt owed.

Matt 18 "I forgave you all that debt" followed by debt-returned and the servant must now "repay all that was owed".

ends with "So shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive others from your hears".

Seems like a very dire warning to me.

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Matt 18; 32 ..."I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

 

[BobRyan]

Ezek 18 - various examples of one who is saved being lost... and one who is lost being saved.

In this chapter all the wicked die - and all the righteous do not die. And the wicked are forgiven all their sins no matter how bad -- if they turn and choose to obey.

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Ezek 18:
20 The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

21 “But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 22 All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and does according to all the abominations that the wicked person does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and dies because of it, for his injustice which he has committed he dies. 27 But when a wicked person turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Since he understood and turned away from all his offenses which he had committed, he shall certainly live; he shall not die

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 13 the rocky ground "springs to life with joy" when the gospel seed is planted but later it dies out.

5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

20 The one sown with seed on the rocky places, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution occurs because of the word, immediately he falls away

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 9:22-27 is about salvation and the Gospel

22 To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak; I have become all things to all people, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. So they do it to obtain a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way as not to run aimlessly; I box in such a way, as to avoid hitting air; 27 but I strictly discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 5: 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.

The very thing some say is not even possible - had already happened as of Gal 5:4.


In Gal 5 it is the case where they already fell.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 11:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

Pretty clear

 

[jesuslover811]

So aslong as we do not die in unbelief by hardening out hearts against the holy spirit god can mend us back on the tree of life

 

[BobRyan]

Good point. The Gospel is open to all and God will freely forgive. No one who falls need remain fallen for as Rom 11 says "He is able to graft them in again if they do not continue in unbelief".

But dismissing the warnings in the Bible don't work today any better than they worked in Noah's day.

 

[sandman]

Of course nothing in the OT including the gospels would reference grace, as it was not known then….

Romans 9-11 is dealing with Israel and then Gentiles…not the Church of God.

Gal 5:4 ….the context is critical…does not imply loss of salvation…Same with 1 Cor.

Hebrews 6 …again, not written to the church of God …but it is the exact opposite of what you are trying to state

 

[Clare73]

There are a number of texts that speak to the warning of loss of forgiveness, being severed from Christ, falling from grace... branches in Christ that are removed.

1. Matt 18 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter
2. Ezek 18 - Entire chapter teaches "forgiveness revoked" and die in sins
3. John 15 - "branches in me" that are cut off and burned up

Keeping in mind that the NT speaks of those "in the kingdom" who are not "of the kingdom," and of both "wheat" and "tares" in the professing church. . .they are the ones who will be severed, not those of true faith.

Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ... you have fallen from grace"

"Fallen from grace" there is not loss of salvation, but refers to requiring circumcision for justification, which is a "falling from grace" only and back into works for justification.

5. Heb 6 - those who have escaped , who have found salvation - turning back again to being lost. Not able to "renew them again" back to being saved - in this very special case

Very often in once-saved-always-saved affirmations some or all of these texts get skimmed past or ignored entirely.

But I have noticed that the Bible never warns about a problem "that is not real"

========
So instead of "not looking at these texts and just finding something that might be less of a problem" - in this thread I propose that we look at these texts.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The elect are predestined to not loose salvation.

God does not want His chosen to be in fear of loosing salvation.

The indwelling fear of Him keeps them from renouncing Him.

That is the ultimate safety net He has provided.

Some will know they wont loose salvation.

Satan wants to undermine assurance by sewing doubt about ones eternal destiny.

This is a nasty assault on believers faith.

Ultimately it is salvation because of what Christ did for us.

Whatever obedience we have is by grace not by force.

We love Him because He loves us - this realisation elicits obedience - we want to please Him.

This is a symptom of a healthy relationship - there is love.

 

[BobRyan]

Keeping in mind that the NT speaks of those "in the kingdom" who are not "of the kingdom," and of both "wheat" and "tares" in the professing church. . .they are the ones who will be severed, not those of true faith.

So those "not in Christ" being "severed from Christ?
Those "not under grace" now having "fallen from Grace"?

"Fallen from grace" there is not loss of salvation

So in your view those who "are under grace" are lost? Those saved by grace "still lost"??

 

[BobRyan]

The elect are predestined to not loose salvation.

God does not want His chosen to be in fear of loosing salvation.

The indwelling fear of Him keeps them from renouncing Him.

That is the ultimate safety net He has provided.

Some will know they wont loose salvation.

Satan wants to undermine assurance by sewing doubt about ones eternal destiny.

This is a nasty assault on believers faith.

Ultimately it is salvation because of what Christ did for us.

Whatever obedience we have is by grace not by force.

We love Him because He loves us - this realisation elicits obedience - we want to please Him.

This is a symptom of a healthy relationship - there is love.

Ok so I see your view/doctrine - but what about addressing the warnings in the texts in the OP?

You say "The indwelling fear of Him keeps them from renouncing Him." -- is that a reference to them reading texts about the reality/example of people having been severed from Christ? having forgiveness revoked? cut off as unbelievers?

 

[Clare73]

So those "not in Christ" being "severed from Christ?
Those "not under grace" now having "fallen from Grace"?

So in your view those who "are under grace" are lost? Those saved by grace "still lost"??

Evidently you don't understand:

"Fallen from grace" in Galatians 5:4 is not fallen from salvation, but refers to requiring circumcision for justification, which is a "falling from grace" only and back into works for justification.

"If" (v.2) they let themselves be circumcised, they will place themselves under the whole law, and the law does not make righteous nor justify; they will have moved themselves out of the scope of divine favor which is received only by grace.

That's "if," do we know they actually removed themselves from grace?

 

[BobRyan]

Of course nothing in the OT including the gospels would reference grace, as it was not known then….

Gal 3:8 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham"
Gal 1:6-9 "There is only one Gospel"
Heb 4:1-2 "The Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also"
1 Cor 10:4 "They all drank from the same spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ"

Jer 31:31-34 -- "I will make a NEW Covenant... THIS IS the Covenant I will make" (unchanged in Heb 8)

Romans 9-11 is dealing with Israel and then Gentiles…not the Church of God.

When all gentiles and Jews are excluded - what/who is left in the "church of God"

Gal 5:4 ….the context is critical…does not imply loss of salvation…

Because the those "severed from Christ...fallen from Grace" are "saved anyway"?

Or because in their former "joined to Christ" and "standing by grace through faith" it was a funny kind of "being lost" anyway condition?

Hebrews 6 …again, not written to the church of God …

Because the church of God is not saved??

Your claim is that this is a description of the lost? " those who have been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come"

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God

If have been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come" == "LOST" then who would even care if they "fell" from that odd-sort-of-lost state? and why would anyone care that they could not be "restored again" to that funny-kind-of-lost state?

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 5: 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.

The very thing some say is not even possible - had already happened as of Gal 5:4.

Those joined to Christ ---> then "severed from Christ"
Those saved by grace --> then "fallen from Grace"

"Fallen from grace" in Galatians 5:4 is not fallen from salvation, but refers to requiring circumcision for justification,

You would replace "you have fallen from Grace" with "you are required to be circumcised"?? those are not synonyms. Rather one is an action and the other is the sad result of taking the action.

Like saying "you who drive drunk and crash -- you died". Cannot be replaced with "you who died - you died" nor can it be reworded as "you who drive drunk - you drive drunk". You need the action then the consequence of it - for the sentence to make sense.

Being joined to Christ "is not the lost condition"
Being "severed from Christ" is not the saved condition.

Evidently you don't understand:

"Fallen from grace" in Galatians 5:4 is not fallen from salvation, but refers to requiring circumcision for justification, which is a "falling from grace" only and back into works for justification.

I think we both might agree that those are not two forms of salvation. "works for justification" is not a second-kind-of-gospel that results in salvation according to Gal 1:6-9

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ok so I see your view/doctrine - but what about addressing the warnings in the texts in the OP?

You say "The indwelling fear of Him keeps them from renouncing Him." -- is that a reference to them reading texts about the reality/example of people having been severed from Christ? having forgiveness revoked? cut off as unbelievers?

It is God's way of sealing His elect from falling away.

Jer 32:
"...they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. "

Clearly it was fulfilled when the New Covenant was instituted and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit was received by believers. This happened way before the New Testament scriptures were written...

 

[Clare73]

Those joined to Christ ---> then "severed from Christ"
Those saved by grace --> then "fallen from Grace"
You would replace "you have fallen from Grace" with "you are required to be circumcised"?? those are not synonyms. Rather one is an action and the other is the sad result of taking the action.
Like saying "you who drive drunk and crash -- you died". Cannot be replaced with "you who died - you died" nor can it be reworded as "you who drive drunk - you drive drunk". You need the action then the consequence of it - for the sentence to make sense.
Being joined to Christ "is not the lost condition"
Being "severed from Christ" is not the saved condition.

Edit: What part of "if you let yourselves be circumcised," and "you who are trying to be justified by law" do you not understand?

There is no assertion of anyone actually receiving circumcision, only a warning against it.

Like saying "you who drive drunk and crash -- you died". Cannot be replaced with "you who died - you died" nor can it be reworded as "you who drive drunk - you drive drunk".
You need the action then the consequence of it - for the sentence to make sense.

Actually, you need the completed action of circumcision to agree with the assertion of the sentence.

I think we both might agree that
those are not two forms of salvation. "works for justification" is not a second-kind-of-gospel that results in salvation according to Gal 1:6-9

There are no works for justification (righteousness). (Romans 1:21, Romans 1:28, Romans 4:5)

 

[BobRyan]

There are no works for justification (righteousness). (Romans 1:21, Romans 1:28, Romans 4:5)

well then we agree on something. But it leaves the problem of those joined to Christ being severed from Christ in Gal 5:4 and those saved by grace being "fallen from grace" in Gal 5:4

It leaves us with "Forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18.

It leaves us with examples of salvation revoked in Ezek 18.

It leaves us with the warning in Rom 11 given to those who "stand by faith"