• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Bible Prophesies

Hotpepper

Charis Dia Pistis
Jun 14, 2010
475
22
Oregon
✟23,314.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This series (Revelation Now) proves so many of bible prophesies as yet another testimony to God's truthfulness and integrity. Although I don't agree with every single thing he says but the majority of it I do. Jac Colon is an SDA minister here in the northwest where I live. I'm sure some of you have seen it before but those that have not should find it quite interesting. It is one of my favorites. :thumbsup:

God bless.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
part 6
Part 7
Part 8
Part 9
Part 10
Part 11
Part 12
Part 13
Part 14
Part 15
Part 16
Part 17
Part 18
Part 19
Part 20
Part 21
Part 22
Part 23


:amen:
 

StormyOne

Senior Veteran
Aug 21, 2005
5,424
47
65
Alabama
✟5,866.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God's truthfulness and integrity? Interesting... is it possible that those things written in Revelation were written to the people at that time, and had specific meaning for them during that time? Is it also possible that those who wrote the bible anticipated Christ returning in their time, and as such were not seeing in vision events occurring here and now?
 
Upvote 0

Hotpepper

Charis Dia Pistis
Jun 14, 2010
475
22
Oregon
✟23,314.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
God's truthfulness and integrity? Interesting... is it possible that those things written in Revelation were written to the people at that time, and had specific meaning for them during that time? Is it also possible that those who wrote the bible anticipated Christ returning in their time, and as such were not seeing in vision events occurring here and now?

Some of it yes, some of it no. Revelation has been said to be written after many of the apostles and Christians during that time were martyred, after the fire in Rome in 64 AD which lead to the rumors of arson and the persecution by Nero (who died in 68 AD). The book of Revelation was apparently written either shortly afterward or several years afterward somewhere between 69 AD and near the end of Domitian's reign, around 95 AD. Although some claim otherwise by taking the verse in Revelation 17:11 "As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction", and using it to imply emperors instead of empires which doesn't hold much weight given the context of the book of Daniel that is needed to decipher the symbolism of Revelation. Much of the book is for those in the future (to the remnant church) in the final days. Howbeit there are passages such as 1 John 2:18 that says "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.", this would be easy to confuse someone into thinking that John was taking this literally but then if he was, he would have literal meant an actual hour. However taking the larger scope of the writings in Scripture it is clear that this "final hour" or "last days" are defined as the final dispensation of the fullness of times as found in Paul's epistle to the Ephesians: "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:" (Ephesians 1:9-10) Jesus Christ Himself declared that the previous dispensation of time had ended and had been "fulfilled" thereby indicating that a new era had begun: "Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.' " (Mark 1:14-15).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

StormyOne

Senior Veteran
Aug 21, 2005
5,424
47
65
Alabama
✟5,866.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The book of Daniel has its own set of problems starting with who actually wrote it.... Liberal Christians (like me) would subscribe to the following:
Many Liberal Christians believe that the book was really written many centuries after Daniel's time, during the Maccabean revolt against the Greek occupying forces in 168-164 BCE. They regard the book as pseudepigraphic - written by an anonymous author or authors and attributed to Daniel. They conclude this for a number of reasons:
topbul2d.gif
The text contains a number of Greek words; yet the Greek occupation of the area did not occur until the 4th century BCE.
topbul2d.gif
One of the musical instruments mentioned in Daniel 3:5 and in subsequent passages did not exist until developed in 2nd century BCE Greece.
topbul2d.gif
Daniel 1:4 refers to the "Chaldeans" as a priestly class in Babylon. This term did not attain this meaning until much later than the 6th century.
topbul2d.gif
About 180 BCE, Jeshua ben Sira listed the heroes of the Jewish faith, including "Enoch, Noah and Abraham through to Nehemiah;" 2 Daniel is not mentioned - presumably because Jeshua is unaware of him. This would indicate that the book of Daniel was written after that time.
topbul2d.gif
Chapter 12 discusses the dead being resurrected, judged, and taken to either heaven and hell. At the time of Daniel, the Jews believed that all persons went to Sheol after death. The concept of heaven and hell was introduced centuries later by the Greeks. It did not appear in Israel until the time of the Maccabean revolt.
topbul2d.gif
Daniel 11:31 (and elsewhere) refers to "the abominable thing that causes desolation." This appears to refer to the erection of a statue of Zeus in the Jerusalem temple in 167 BCE, and would indicate that the book was written later than that date.
topbul2d.gif
Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires. In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Judea, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Judea where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur. The author(s) appeared to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, but it was in Persia. Thus, the book was apparently completed before 164.
Many liberal Christians believe that the Book of Daniel is a work of fiction. Fables and myths about a non-existent ancient hero, Daniel's, were passed down orally for centuries, and then finally written down by an unknown author(s), sometime between 167 and 164 BCE. At the end of the book, the author(s) then unsuccessfully attempted to predict the future.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/daniel.htm

Of course Paul believed that he was living in the last days... and that Christ would return in his (Paul's) time.... which would make one wonder what exactly needed to happen for Christ to return...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hotpepper

Charis Dia Pistis
Jun 14, 2010
475
22
Oregon
✟23,314.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The book of Daniel has its own set of problems starting with who actually wrote it.... Liberal Christians (like me) would subscribe to the following:
Many Liberal Christians believe that the book was really written many centuries after Daniel's time, during the Maccabean revolt against the Greek occupying forces in 168-164 BCE. They regard the book as pseudepigraphic - written by an anonymous author or authors and attributed to Daniel. They conclude this for a number of reasons:
topbul2d.gif
The text contains a number of Greek words; yet the Greek occupation of the area did not occur until the 4th century BCE.
topbul2d.gif
One of the musical instruments mentioned in Daniel 3:5 and in subsequent passages did not exist until developed in 2nd century BCE Greece.
topbul2d.gif
Daniel 1:4 refers to the "Chaldeans" as a priestly class in Babylon. This term did not attain this meaning until much later than the 6th century.
topbul2d.gif
About 180 BCE, Jeshua ben Sira listed the heroes of the Jewish faith, including "Enoch, Noah and Abraham through to Nehemiah;" 2 Daniel is not mentioned - presumably because Jeshua is unaware of him. This would indicate that the book of Daniel was written after that time.
topbul2d.gif
Chapter 12 discusses the dead being resurrected, judged, and taken to either heaven and hell. At the time of Daniel, the Jews believed that all persons went to Sheol after death. The concept of heaven and hell was introduced centuries later by the Greeks. It did not appear in Israel until the time of the Maccabean revolt.
topbul2d.gif
Daniel 11:31 (and elsewhere) refers to "the abominable thing that causes desolation." This appears to refer to the erection of a statue of Zeus in the Jerusalem temple in 167 BCE, and would indicate that the book was written later than that date.
topbul2d.gif
Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires. In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Judea, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Judea where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur. The author(s) appeared to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, but it was in Persia. Thus, the book was apparently completed before 164. Many liberal Christians believe that the Book of Daniel is a work of fiction. Fables and myths about a non-existent ancient hero, Daniel's, were passed down orally for centuries, and then finally written down by an unknown author(s), sometime between 167 and 164 BCE. At the end of the book, the author(s) then unsuccessfully attempted to predict the future.
THE BOOK OF DANIEL IN THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES (OLD TESTAMENT)


These three Greek words "cithara", "psaltery", and "symphonia" that this article is referring to, are said to be the names of musical instruments. It should be noted that the words appear as transliterations, not as words written in Greek. "Symphonia" was argued to not have existed until the later second century BC while the writing of Daniel was written in the sixth century BC. It has subsequently been shown that Pythagoras, born in the sixth century BC, used the term. While its adjectival use meaning "in unison" is found in the 'Hymni Homerica, ad Mercurium 51'; both instances date from the sixth century BC, the supposed setting of Daniel.

Also, the statement in the article that "the Greek occupation of the area did not occur until the fourth century" does not give credit to the instrument more than likely preceding the occupation by the means of trade which up until the mid-sixth century BC, Corinth dominated trade in the West. They mainly exported Corinthian vases which were often filled with olive oil, in return for grain.

As for the word "Chaldeans" as a priestly class (referring to magicians and astrologers in Babylon) not attaining this meaning until "much later" than the 6th century (according to the article), it is a fact that the use of this meaning was used by Herodotus of Halicarnassus (vol. 1, sec 181-183) in the 5th century which indicates that this meaning of the word was already well into the main stream at that time.

"Nebuchadnezzar was the last great Mesopotamian ruler, and Chaldean power quickly crumbled after his death in 562 B.C. The Chaldean priests - whose interest in astrology so greatly added to the fund of Babylonian astronomical knowledge that the word "Chaldean" came to mean astronomer - continually undermined the monarchy. Finally, in 539 B.C., they opened the gates of Babylon to Cyrus the Persian, thus fulfilling Daniel's message of doom upon the notorious Belshazzar, the last Chaldean ruler: 'You have been weighed in the balances and found wanting' " [Footnote 28: Herodotus History of the Persian Wars 1.181]

This 5th century BC historian states (above) the word "Chaldean came to mean astrologer" indicating past-tense. He is describing a word's meaning from a historical origin and is not saying that it has "recently come to mean astrologer" speaking of a recent trend in the meaning. He also gives credit to Daniel's message of doom (quoting prophesy) upon Belshazzar. Therefore claims of the book of Daniel being written as late as 165 BC based on this word's meaning doesn't hold any weight whatsoever.

Another unavoidable consistency with Daniel's sixth century dating is
Ezekiel 14:14, 20; and 28:3 where Daniel is found. The traditional date of Ezekiel (593-571 BC) is hardly disputed.

It should also be known that Sirah, also known as
Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach, the Wisdom of Ben Sira, or Ecclesiasticus, failed to mention many prophets, priests and kings. He selected personalities to feature according to his own ideas. He pays no attention to those outside Israel: Jonah at Nineveh, Daniel at Babylon, and Mordecai in the book of Esther. He speaks nothing of Ezra, Job, but more than all he omits the entire corps of the Minor Prophets! Thus, aside from being an argument from silence, pointing out that Jeshua ben Sira's Sirach did not mention Daniel is irrelevant. Also, this is only really accepted as part of the biblical canon by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox but not by many Protestants.

The argument that the article has regarding afterlife in the OT not being mentioned until the Greeks also seems to neglect that the forbiddance of necromancy itself suggested a belief in some sort of afterlife. Not to mention verses such as these indicate this very belief:

Surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever. (Psalm 23:6)

Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you. (Psalm 84:4)

Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. (Psalm 91:1)

By the power of your hand, O Lord, destroy those who look to this world for their reward. But satisfy the hunger of your treasured ones. May their children have plenty, leaving an inheritance for their descendants. Because I am righteous, I will see you. When I awake, I will see you face to face and be satisfied. (Psalm 17:14-15)

...and then of course there is the statement from Jesus Himself toward the Jewish leaders:

...and you do not have his message in your hearts, because you do not believe me—the one he sent to you. “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life. “Your approval means nothing to me, because I know you don’t have God’s love within you. For I have come to you in my Father’s name, and you have rejected me. (John 5:38-43)

To me, the article falls apart after this. As far as its validity, it simply doesn't hold to any truth. The author is merely stating claims that have already been disproved by evidence.

.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hotpepper

Charis Dia Pistis
Jun 14, 2010
475
22
Oregon
✟23,314.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Of course Paul believed that he was living in the last days... and that Christ would return in his (Paul's) time.... which would make one wonder what exactly needed to happen for Christ to return...

I think it would be fairer to say that Paul thought that Christ could return at anytime. Paul knew that the day of the Lord would come as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) This demonstrates an agreement with what Christ said and gives much credit to Paul for his firm roots in sound doctrine. It wasn't that he knew or thought Christ would come at a certain time but rather he reflected his ignorance of not knowing when Jesus would return and spoke immanently for all to "be ready". Consider Luke 12:35-40, Jesus says:

"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." (Luke 12:35-40)


.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

StormyOne

Senior Veteran
Aug 21, 2005
5,424
47
65
Alabama
✟5,866.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think it would be fairer to say that Paul thought that Christ could return at anytime. Paul knew that the day of the Lord would come as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) This demonstrates an agreement with what Christ said and gives much credit to Paul for his firm roots in sound doctrine. It wasn't that he knew or thought Christ would come at a certain time but rather he reflected his ignorance of not knowing when Jesus would return and spoke immanently for all to "be ready". Consider Luke 12:35-40, Jesus says:

"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." (Luke 12:35-40)


.
Paul did consider himself living in "the last days." That is my point... As such, the "last day" events could have occurred during any time from Paul's time on....

As for the Daniel info, my point is that not all agree that it was Daniel who wrote that book, nor is there agreement on when it was written... Kugel whom I happen to agree with makes some interesting arguments in his book, How to Read the Bible.... having said that, one can simply google the phrase, "Who wrote the book of Daniel and come up with some interesting info. For example:
Scholarly view
modern critical biblical scholarship dates the Book of Daniel to the second century BCE,[2][3] There is general agreement among scholars that Daniel's revelations are actually vaticinia ex eventu or prophecies after the event.[37] and the traditionalist view which dates it to the 6th century has been rejected by the scholarly community since the end of the nineteenth century.[38][39][40][41][42][43][44] Even leading Protestant scholars have recently adopted this position, while in the Roman Catholic community it has been the norm since World War II.[38] Evangelical Old Testament scholar John Goldingay argues that many of the prophecies in Daniel, in particular the prophecies of Daniel 11, were written after the fact (ex eventu). But, says Goldingay, this was not a deceptive ploy, or a "pious fraud" (Porphyry of Tyros). Rather, the author/redactor of Daniel was employing a then common literary genre, which Goldingay describes as "quasi-prophecy", and so the author's original readers would have recognized this genre and therefore not been led to believe that the quasi-prophecies were actual prophecies (one might add that the readers would have doubtless known that the piece of literature being read to them had just been written, i.e. had been written in the 2nd century; or put differently, they would have realized that the piece of literature had not been written in the 6th century).[45]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel

As I said, there is much discussion about who wrote it and when it was written....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Byfaithalone1

The gospel is Jesus Christ!
May 3, 2007
3,602
79
✟26,689.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
How should we view passages such as the following:
1I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?"
3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it." Revelation 5
BFA
 
Upvote 0

StormyOne

Senior Veteran
Aug 21, 2005
5,424
47
65
Alabama
✟5,866.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How should we view passages such as the following:
1I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?"
3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it." Revelation 5
BFA

Metaphorically? Who uses books and seals in this day and age... If we have newer technology why wouldn't God? I mean God having a computer is just about as viable as God having a heavenly library with books... Lastly, if God is a spirit, does he really need a throne?
 
Upvote 0

Byfaithalone1

The gospel is Jesus Christ!
May 3, 2007
3,602
79
✟26,689.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Metaphorically? Who uses books and seals in this day and age... If we have newer technology why wouldn't God? I mean God having a computer is just about as viable as God having a heavenly library with books... Lastly, if God is a spirit, does he really need a throne?

I agree that it's a metaphor. Heck, for that matter, it seems like the entire book is a metaphor or an analogy or an allegory or something. The metaphor of sealing up a book intrigues me. I wonder whether we understand as much about things that have been sealed up as we think we do.

BFA
 
Upvote 0

StormyOne

Senior Veteran
Aug 21, 2005
5,424
47
65
Alabama
✟5,866.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I agree that it's a metaphor. Heck, for that matter, it seems like the entire book is a metaphor or an analogy or an allegory or something. The metaphor of sealing up a book intrigues me. I wonder whether we understand as much about things that have been sealed up as we think we do.

BFA

I doubt that we would understand the sealed stuff, if indeed there is some, we barely understand the unsealed info.... Maybe the author just put that phrase in there to generate interest and intrigue? Who knows?
 
Upvote 0

Byfaithalone1

The gospel is Jesus Christ!
May 3, 2007
3,602
79
✟26,689.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I doubt that we would understand the sealed stuff, if indeed there is some, we barely understand the unsealed info.... Maybe the author just put that phrase in there to generate interest and intrigue? Who knows?

I'd guess that we often try to dive into things that fit into the metaphor of being "sealed," thinking that they are "unsealed." I wonder how often we divide ourselves when we do so?

BFA
 
Upvote 0

Hotpepper

Charis Dia Pistis
Jun 14, 2010
475
22
Oregon
✟23,314.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I agree that it's a metaphor. Heck, for that matter, it seems like the entire book is a metaphor or an analogy or an allegory or something. The metaphor of sealing up a book intrigues me. I wonder whether we understand as much about things that have been sealed up as we think we do.

BFA

:clap: Gotta watch :) the series :clap:
 
Upvote 0

StormyOne

Senior Veteran
Aug 21, 2005
5,424
47
65
Alabama
✟5,866.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
:clap: Gotta watch :) the series :clap:

nah... you can share what you found significant from the series.... or not... as I have gotten older I give you about 20 minutes to make your case... if you can't make your case in 20 minutes, you've lost me....

So Hotpepper, what was significant about the series that compelled you to share it with us?
 
Upvote 0

Hotpepper

Charis Dia Pistis
Jun 14, 2010
475
22
Oregon
✟23,314.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
nah... you can share what you found significant from the series.... or not... as I have gotten older I give you about 20 minutes to make your case... if you can't make your case in 20 minutes, you've lost me....

So Hotpepper, what was significant about the series that compelled you to share it with us?

Well it's kinda like finding a restaurant that has really good food. You want everybody to know about it.
 
Upvote 0